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System upgrade (part 2) |
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Graham Slee
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Retired Joined: 11 Jan 2008 Location: South Yorkshire Status: Offline Points: 16314 |
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Posted: 05 Jul 2015 at 12:52pm |
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Probably tape hiss and somehow the HDs have it dithered down - but they don't say.
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That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps
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Ash
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Joined: 18 Mar 2013 Location: Dorset Status: Offline Points: 4360 |
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Posted: 05 Jul 2015 at 1:08pm |
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I just watched the whole video and yes, perhaps the HD versions of the recordings have had dither applied to manipulate background noise into being less audible by putting the higher noise floor parts in less sensitive regions of our hearing and the lower noise floor parts in the regions of highest hearing acuity.
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miT
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Joined: 07 Jan 2009 Location: London Status: Offline Points: 890 |
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Posted: 05 Jul 2015 at 3:33pm |
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That video was very educational, thanks Graham! It certainly sounds like dithering could cause differences (no pun intended) so I decided to do some tests of hiss levels (ignoring SQ for this). Here are my results:
Jimi Hendrix - Purple Haze may become my benchmark for how bad hiss can be... It is ridiculously noticeable, and only in the left channel which plays different instruments (mono recording?). My own 16/44.1 rip. I tried Sam Cooke - Portrait of a Legend (24/88) and there is hiss but at a more accepted (normal?) level. I moved on to Mongo Santamaría - Watermelon Man (my own 16/44.1 rip) and it sounds similar to Sam Cooke. That normal level isn't what I was originally talking about but for the purpose of this test, I'm focussing on all hiss. Deep Purple - The Platinum Collection, again my own 16/44.1 rip. Hush has hiss (try saying that after a few!) that isn't quite as "loud" as Purple Haze but stands out because it changes slightly in each channel every second so draws my attention to it. Child in Time however is up there with the best of them. ELP - Fanfare for the Common Man (only discovered that due to Ash's YouTube teaser of Graham's Roadshow, thanks guys!) also has outstanding levels of "silence". After further testing, the only 24 bit tracks where I don't notice hiss (in actuality it is simply extremely quiet but still there) are "specially recorded/produced" tracks (David Chesky, etc). I'm not sure if that makes a difference (special production techniques, mics, etc?) but the hiss is so low it sounds like there is none. However I think at best, it is only slightly better (if at all!) than the best of 16/44.1 tracks. Without trawling through the rest of my 13,000 tracks, I can't compare to any MP3s. As I said earlier though, they do seem have more attention paid to their mastering... So what have we learned then? Apart from the fact that I have WAY too much time on my hands , as Ash has said from the beginning the mastering of the track matters more than the numbers. ![]() Man, do I need to get out more...
Edited by miT - 05 Jul 2015 at 3:35pm |
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Fatmangolf
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Joined: 23 Dec 2009 Location: Middlesbrough Status: Offline Points: 9695 |
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Posted: 05 Jul 2015 at 8:27pm |
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The hiss on the old recordings will always be there although it is probably being 'gated' i.e. the level is being automatically reduced in quieter passages. That can create a noise tail where you notice the noise as the note fades. In the manual equivalent You can probably hear places where a noisy track a hissy or humming guitar amp is faded up as that instrument starts to play and then dipped down as the notes finish.
Digital restoration can do wonders with old records as you can fix clicks and sample the noise signature for a modern version of noise gating. The problem with tapes is that the noise floor isn't constant as most tapes have noise reduction that has been encoded on the tape like DBX and Dolby. It would be easy to decode if it were fixed pre-emphasis (i.e. treble boost to be reversed on playback) but it's usually dynamic encoding with compression of signal range onto tape and expansion to reverse this on playback. With Dolby there is a treble emphasis that varies with signal level, really clever for improving signal to noise on that machine but challenging years later. In 'remastering' my old band recordings and demos I found Dolby B and C is really hard to decode now on different equipment. The decay in magnetic signal and physical deterioration of cassette tape doesn't help. Anyway it's worth remembering that many classic albums were recorded quickly to be issued fast in an era when the 'warts' were lost in the record surface noise and vinyl roar. The remasters we hear now will only be as good as the original tracks, albeit after some digital restoration. I would have been out but it's still raining here! Please ignore the numbers and enjoy the music as you suggested. |
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Jon
Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
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Ash
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Joined: 18 Mar 2013 Location: Dorset Status: Offline Points: 4360 |
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Posted: 05 Jul 2015 at 9:13pm |
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With almost all of the video game soundtrack CDs and CD albums from obscure underground artists that I have, the quality of the mastering of the Red Book spec files on the discs is typically excellent. If it's not, I would not expect a "higher resolution" file to improve things if they didn't bother to give any care to mixing and mastering the material well the first time. In fact, if the mixing was that bad or if they contained lots of hiss, I'd probably rather convert it to a lossy format so that the music becomes less distinct in high frequency details and hope that the imperfections could be smoothed over by good musicality. And if good musicality isn't there to save the day either, well, then I wouldn't be listening to the material to begin with.
That's just the way I look at it though.
Edited by Ash - 05 Jul 2015 at 9:15pm |
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miT
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Joined: 07 Jan 2009 Location: London Status: Offline Points: 890 |
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Posted: 05 Jul 2015 at 11:57pm |
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Cheers Jon. The rushed recording suggestion makes sense to me. All the songs I found that are guilty of the loudest hiss seem to be from the 60/early 70s (although many others I have from the same time period are fine). From memory all of my pre-60s music are relatively hiss free too, whether remastered or not. It's a shame that some of the biggest hits of that period could have so easily been mastered better. Shortcuts on the way to making a quick buck I guess.
That's a good suggestion Ash, thanks. Are those game soundtracks recorded with real instruments/orchestras or are they electronic? Because the latter bypasses the steps of recording analogue sounds, in my experience it sounds better as there's less to interfere with the music.
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miT
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Joined: 07 Jan 2009 Location: London Status: Offline Points: 890 |
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Posted: 06 Jul 2015 at 11:22am |
I meant to say in my earlier post, I read the article "Why 192Khz 24bit downloads are very silly" (mentioned at the beginning of the video Graham shared) yesterday. A very interesting read... It proves that 16/44.1 is the highest quality digital music that can be achieved and better yet, anything over that actually sounds worse due to ultrasonics!
Have a read here: http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html |
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