System upgrade (part 2)
Printed From: Graham Slee Hifi System Components
Category: Digital Audio
Forum Name: CD, DVD Audio, DACs, ADCs and Digitizing
Forum Description: The existing (and obsolete?) digital formats
URL: https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2472
Printed Date: 27 Mar 2026 at 12:35am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: System upgrade (part 2)
Posted By: miT
Subject: System upgrade (part 2)
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2015 at 11:37pm
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Hi all, As stated in my previous thread in the headphone section, I want to upgrade my existing DAC (along with everything else). My current system comprises of Auzentech Prelude > Cambridge Audio Azur 740C (thanks Miguel) > Novo > AKG K701 (thanks Graham) but now I want to reach the nth degree. All of my music is on PC but a smaller DAC would be welcome as half of my desk is taken up by the 740C even though I don't listen to CDs anymore. I have read up about the Bitzie but I'm not sure if it would work for me as my PC is only on when I use it and I believe Graham mentioned that it takes a couple of hours to warm up? I love the idea of a USB DAC as I only need one input but I'm not sure what would be best. Can anyone provide some guidance please? Thanks in advance guys. Tim P.S. I'm in the UK. |
Replies:
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2015 at 7:37am
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It's like the chamber of 32 doors for the designer, or like putting the goal posts at Wembley on 230V kiddies roundabouts but running them at 600 volts... S/PDIF, optical, Ethernet, Bluetooth, USB, Wi-Fi, brain implants... did I miss any? Just a "few moments ago" all I had to deal with was tape heads; crystal, ceramic and magnetic cartridges; optical soundtrack preamps; line-level in every flavour - no standardisation, but all sharing the same thing - analogue! Life accelerated into now, and everything runs at colossal clock speeds - and it's all "better - better but wow!" - and it's all completely different to each other... AND it will all soon be obsolete, probably by next Tuesday! "How many boards must an engineer lay out, until he's done them all? The answer my friend..." Apologies Tim, this is not a dig at you, but what you need is a one input Majestic, and I only make it with 8.  ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2015 at 9:41am
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Yes, I was going to suggest a Bitzie but to keep it on all the time, the computer has to remain on all the time too and this isn't always possible. So Majestic DAC is the only alternative if you want top results, as it has its own PSU1 for permanent power up. Bitzie is only of use if you solely need USB connectivity too. ------------- We do not see things as they are. We see things as we are. |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2015 at 9:50am
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Lol, no problem Graham. I've been around long enough to know about your rants but as always, they are well founded. The problem is that you are one of a few (if any others still exist??) who I hold as a decent manufacturer, one who can be trusted implicitly and I'm happy to give my money to! But then how can you be expected to make enough products to "correct" every other company's failures? It's unreasonable. I agree, a "solo" Majestic would be ideal. I'd be fine with the current model but sadly can't stretch my budget to that for only 1 input, especially as I have too many other costly projects in the pipeline!  Is it something you have considered doing in the future though? If so I'd happily make do until you did, even if we're talking years down the line... Alternatively, is there anyway to keep the Bitzie powered at a low voltage without any detrimental effects? |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2015 at 9:51am
| I guess Ash just answered that then... |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2015 at 10:22am
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I too was also interested in finding a means of keeping the Bitzie powered up all the time but I found myself unable to find a simple convenient method that wouldn't have me worrying whether I'd be damaging the electronics. This is one of the reasons I sold mine. I must admit that I wouldn't buy a Majestic if there was a "mini-Majestic", say with one optical input, one USB input, maybe a single co-axial input (optional as I probably wouldn't need it), an analogue input (preferred instead of co-axial), a single balanced output and a PSU1 to power the device. Not sure how much this would downscale manufacturing costs and product size/price though.
Anyway, I'll just be grateful that the Majestic exists and buy that instead. ------------- We do not see things as they are. We see things as we are. |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2015 at 10:51am
| Thanks Ash. Your dream mini-Majestic is probably going to give Graham nightmares tonight... Lol. |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2015 at 11:00am
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Well if GSPAudio wasn't just a 3-man band, this would be feasible. Whether anyone except myself would buy it though... That would be Graham's issue. He runs a business to make a living. Businesses don't run on air.
------------- We do not see things as they are. We see things as we are. |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2015 at 11:21am
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I would have thought Graham's only responsibility to us the customers is to sell us products that work, same as every other company? I'm pretty sure Sennheiser would laugh in our face if we asked them to make us the HD250s again, as would every other company if we tried similar with their products. They make, we buy. We don't dictate to them. I agree it would be nice if Graham did but you know what? In this day and age of overly inflated prices for rubbish quality products, I'm just glad GSP Audio exists! |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2015 at 11:54am
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Supply to suit the demand. The demand for genuine specialist equipment is small compared to the eagerness of "the masses" to purchase cheap/convenient/fashion audio products. The people who typically think they know a lot more than they actually do. Combine corporate greed with large numbers of consumers that essentially accept poor standards and there, you identify the problem. Break free of the cultural trance and expect better. You'll typically find that the best performing audio products are made by those with years of experience who have had the time to specialize; those tend to be our real experts, not the solely money-driven wannabes of the media. ------------- We do not see things as they are. We see things as we are. |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2015 at 12:18pm
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It is the same with everything Ash. Take for instance my other hobby. Well engineered sports cars have been killed off because of politics and the mindless masses who don't know how to appreciate/use them, instead being replaced by rubbish that will sell sell sell for a high profit. We want GSP Audio to make everything but sadly there are real world limitations that prevent/delay/postpone that. Maybe I should just put up with the behemoth 740C and hope that one day... |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2015 at 3:37pm
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Totally off topic, but I caught the second half of a TV programme last night about British Rail and the HST and APT (the train that leaned over in corners). The less advanced HST (Intercity 125) prospered whilst the ground-breaking technology of the APT was allowed to whither and die, with only three trains entering service, because no-one of vision had the gumption to push it through the proper development. It was pointed out that the UK high speed running was achieved at a fraction of the cost of the French equivalent which had necessitated totally new track. I suppose the final nail was privatisation - but let's not go there . . . Back to system upgrades - yes a Majestic-lite would be good! I'd have a place for one in my "AV" system where the 8-input jobbie would entail a lot of redundancy. Conversely, a mains powered Bitzie would be good too. But a company like GSP can't possibly cover all bases . . . ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2015 at 3:59pm
That's the world all over nowadays! Did they mention the billions France spent on new trains, only to realise they were too wide to fit in their stations?  'tis a shame as I'd rather give Graham my cash than going elsewhere. But where could I look anyway? Arcam? Cambridge Audio? Sadly I don't have enough valuables or else I'd flog something and get the Majestic! |
Posted By: mitch65
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2015 at 4:01pm
Hate to say it guys but i was thinking about how much i would like a mini-Majestic as well, cannot stretch to the 'full-fat' version and I really like the idea of having the DAC/headphone amp, etc in one enclosure (space considerations)  ------------- Greg Rega Planer 3 Gram Amp 2 Audiolab 8000A Auralic Aries Mini Russell K 50 |
miT wrote:Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2015 at 4:07pm
Graham, please don't jump! 
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Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2015 at 5:15pm
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Yes, a PSU1 powered Bitzie with optical input instead of optical output, USB input for signal only (not bus-powered), maybe a coaxial input instead of the coaxial output (or scrap coax connectivity completely) and an analogue input. Output would be a balanced output only. Case size of maybe double the size of the Bitzie and a price of £950. Just an idea. And the name of the product?? Well the basis is a mini-Majestic or mini-Maj and staying with the connotations to "magical" performance, I propose the name: Graham Slee Mage Like the little guy from the Final Fantasy IX video game.
Small but powerful.------------- We do not see things as they are. We see things as we are. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2015 at 5:20pm
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The LNER A4 class loco (Mallard) built in Doncaster (South Yorkshire...) did 126mph without needing new lines, or oil from the mid-east! It was a bit mucky though... but muck at source, evenly scattered to the winds, and didn't cause acid-rain to fall on Finland. Jobs were plenty in the coalfields - steel was dug out of the ground near Sc**thorpe - Sheffield processed some of it (Doncaster "Plant" being in the middle) - people had money to spend... Some arse in Westminster decided electricity was better - bought boat loads of foreign coal and burnt it at high velocity in a few concentrated power stations - Finnish trees died - pits and steelworks closed - people became impoverished. Back on topic, it was an idea to do a simple DAC, but 80 plus pages of suggestions brought about the Majestic. It could take me some time to do a one input DAC, but provided it's wanted, I can put it on my to do list. We could make a remote power supply/USB cable adapter for the Bitzie in less time. We're here to serve. ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2015 at 5:21pm
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Bloody bad word filter! (yes, we know the joke...) ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2015 at 5:26pm
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You're here to serve AND survive financially! ------------- We do not see things as they are. We see things as we are. |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2015 at 6:06pm
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Lots of Friday fun here. I'll stick with my Majestic which is pretty compact for all the technology and connectivity it contains. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2015 at 7:01pm
I keep putting off a Maj order until I have more money saved but won't be long now.  ------------- We do not see things as they are. We see things as we are. |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2015 at 7:12pm
| Hi Graham. Comparing them to your headphone amps, is there a difference in sound quality between the two (i.e. Bitzie = Novo, Majestic = Solo)? If not, then a powered Bitzie suits my needs perfectly as I'll run it to a Solo ULDE. |
Posted By: msphil
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2015 at 1:50pm
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I have to say to anyone thinking about a DAC/preamp that the Majestic is a really fantastic piece of kit. It has been favourably compared to a DAC costing well above £5000 that no doubt would not have the usability or number of inputs that it has. I can promise you that you will not be disappointed if you buy one! If you want the best this is the one for you! I have put my money where my mouth is by having two. On my bedroom system I have a Squeezebox Touch linked to the Majestic and then to a Solo ULDE and a pair of Grado PS 1000 headphones. In the lounge the Squeezebox Touch feeds the Majestic which is then linked to a pair of Proprius amps and a pair of PMC Fact 8 speakers. Everything is linked with GSP cabling. I personally have never heard better systems and to my mind the Majestic (linked to the other GSP products) is the key to both systems. If you can afford it, don't hesitate! ------------- 'You are, through your soul not your body, a human being.' |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2015 at 4:47pm
Thanks msphil. As with any GSP product, I have no doubts that they are worth every penny and IMHO are worth far more than their asking price especially when compared to the competition. My struggle is justifying the price when I only need 1x input and will also be buying a Solo ULDE, "top-level" headphones, along with too many other expensive projects also happening this year. It would be a different story if I needed more/all of the inputs! But Graham has provided a glimmer of hope in his earlier post so I am happy to see what the future holds... 
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Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2015 at 5:46pm
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Just wondering, has anyone tried a Bitzie with a Raspberry Pi? Power supply and source facilities all in one package. Pi could run on Lipo battery for improved isolation from mains borne noise. ------------- Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2015 at 9:21pm
Good idea! I'd been thinking of trying the Bitzie with a Pi PSU, and think I will. I may have one lurking about somewhere. I just need to canibalize a USB cable, and I'll give it a whirl with a ULDE, and try to explain the results. In my reply to your System upgrade (part 1) I've been using the Majestic driving the Solo ULDE/HD250II. However, the "digits" are being transmitted to the Majestic by 6 metre coax from the Bitzie S/PDIF out - the Bitzie being just to the right of my keyboard and connected to a USB socket on my well-worn XP PC via a Lautus USB. It is interesting to note that there is an OS or hardware problem somewhere as none of the PC's USB ports are usable by anything else - or recognised by the OS. Only the Bitzie and Brother DCP 9055CDN office printer work with it anymore... they're somehow recognised by the "non-existent" USB ports ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2015 at 9:21am
I'm not sure I understand fully Graham...  When used as a USB DAC, is there any difference between the Bitzie and the Majestic to your ears? As I said previously, if there is no difference then a powered Bitzie would be exactly what I need.
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Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2015 at 9:54am
Bitzie uses the 5V bus power through the USB whereas the Majestic uses a regulated power supply of Graham's own design. This could well provide a slight lift in performance. I expect that the Majestic will only be a slight improvement as the Bitzie on its own is already incredible. I reckon though, if Graham were to make a mini-Majestic or "Mage" then the reduced price would attract more customers. Many customers aren't like myself in that they're not willing to lay down as much as £1600 on a DAC, quite possibly because they can't afford it. I'm not saying that it doesn't justify its cost, because IT DOES but you have to remember that I've been following/stalking Graham Slee for a while so I know exactly how good his products sound whilst newcomers may be wary. If a mini-Majestic were to be around £800-£900 with only one of each of the most important inputs/outputs AND PSU1-powered, it would be something that would be attractive to more people, I think. I'd buy it. I'm not the kind of guy that needs to have six or seven cables connected to the device at once. I'd only be using one input and one output at any one time. Maybe I'm just a simpleton but if you could further uncut the price of other DACs on the market without making any sacrifices to the current Majestic sound, you could push sales greatly in your favour.  ------------- We do not see things as they are. We see things as we are. |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2015 at 10:20am
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A PSU1 Bitzie it is then Graham.
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Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2015 at 10:37am
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A PSU1-Bitzie, only if you're willing to settle for USB input only. As Graham said, he can design an adapter cable to separate the power and signal components of the USB cable thus allowing the user the ability to keep the electronics powered externally all the time, keeping them in optimum playback state. He could make something like this fairly quickly. What I propose is simplifying the excellent Majestic for the simple people like me. Although, in the time it'll take for a re-design, I'll have bought a Majestic already to see me through and I'd then have to "downsize" to the new product. Hmmm... ------------- We do not see things as they are. We see things as we are. |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2015 at 10:50am
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Call me selfish but I only need USB... I love the idea of the mini-Majestic that we have created for Graham  but for USB only, that too would be hard to justify. I'd certainly give it a go though!If more inputs are needed, as you have said Ash, save up.
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Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2015 at 11:33am
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I guess a downsized version of the Majestic couldn't get too much smaller just for cutting out two optical inputs, two or three coaxial inputs and an unbalanced output. ------------- We do not see things as they are. We see things as we are. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2015 at 12:30pm
I had been thinking of a Pi (5V) power supply. A PSU1 would have to be fitted with a 5V regulator, but the input voltage - after the rectifier - is too high for that. The PSU1 would have to be fitted with a lower voltage transformer. I would have to enquire how much our manufacturer would charge for that. ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2015 at 12:33pm
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Sorry I mean "mini" in inputs, not size. I've not seen it in the flesh but I'm pretty sure the Majestic is smaller than my Azur 740C... It is better looking IMO than the Bitzie anyway (sorry Graham). But size isn't the issue (for me); cost is as I only need a USB DAC.
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Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2015 at 12:35pm
Sorry for all the extra work we're causing you Graham. Your efforts to satisfy us are much appreciated.  Btw, it doesn't have to be a PSU1. I'm just using that as my comparison over the "green" power supply. |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2015 at 1:18pm
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In defense of the Majestic, with all its inputs and features, it's not actually that big anyway. I'm just being my usual minimalistic self. If the DAC is too small/lightweight, it gets pulled around by cables easily too. I kinda want to order the Majestic and cable right now but I'll be disciplined and wait for three or four more HD540IIs to sell first. ------------- We do not see things as they are. We see things as we are. |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2015 at 6:18pm
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Discipline is for whimps...
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Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2015 at 6:43pm
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Maybe I could make an order tonight. ------------- We do not see things as they are. We see things as we are. |
Posted By: LOINER
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2015 at 7:21pm
You know you want to  ------------- STUART SOLO ULTRA LINEAR DIAMOND EDITION LAUTUS DUAL MONO 1.5M INTERCONNECTS GRAM AMP 2SE |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2015 at 8:14pm
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If your funds now permit I think you'll be glad you did Ash. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2015 at 8:34pm
Yes, I do... ------------- We do not see things as they are. We see things as we are. |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2015 at 10:51pm
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Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2015 at 11:20am
After too long a wait, I have finally placed my order for a Lautus/powered Bitzie. My new HD540IIs are still burning in but I look forward to comparing my existing system while the Bitzie burns in.  Time to get some celebratory new music...
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Posted By: mitch65
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2015 at 12:35pm
Don't think you'll regret that move, the bitzie is a great little DAC and works really well with the 540s ------------- Greg Rega Planer 3 Gram Amp 2 Audiolab 8000A Auralic Aries Mini Russell K 50 |
Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2015 at 12:35pm
 Enjoy------------- Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it. |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2015 at 5:16pm
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Thanks guys. I was always going to get the Bitzie (at least after there became a powered option) but at least I'm not going to feel I'm missing out while I wait for the rest of my system. 15 new albums are on their way to me so I'm ready for the Bitzie.
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Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2015 at 7:49pm
| I had to spend several times more money to acquire a headphone that sounds better than the HD540II. It is a good guide for comparing to other devices, to assess what sounds good and what doesn't. |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2015 at 8:48pm
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Congratulations Tim and happy listening with your new GSP gear. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2015 at 9:31pm
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I agree with you there Ash, they are fantastic! I'm so glad I had to delay the rest of my upgrades as I would have missed out on the 540s otherwise! Serious kit at a bargain price. Cheers Jon. I had been delaying in getting the albums (and listening to some others I recently bought) until I had a system worthy to play them on, but now my ears are going to be immersed in Floyd, Clapton, Norah Jones, Stevie Wonder, DJ Shadow... |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 02 Jul 2015 at 12:28pm
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As I prefer flogging a dead horse rather than creating new threads, I'm going to continue my discussion here... My new Bitzie arrived this morning but as I was on my way out to work, all I was able to do was plug it in with my powered/Lautus cable and let it warm up. In the spirit of building up extra anticipation/torturing myself, what differences do you think I should expect between my existing system (PC > Cambridge Audio Azur 740C DAC > Novo Green) and my new one (PC > powered/Lautus/Bitzie)? |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 02 Jul 2015 at 12:55pm
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A powered Bitzie with Lautus USB cable and HD540II as well... If I were a betting man, I'd opt for the scenario where it's going to slaughter your previous signal path...  Please post some pictures of the power supply connection.
 You're in for a good listening session later on. |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 02 Jul 2015 at 1:01pm
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKxA7fbCFRQ
I still remember the enormous grin that emerged on my face when I listened to this track through LautusUSB-Bitzie-HD540II for the very first time!
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Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 02 Jul 2015 at 2:53pm
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That sounds good to me! Methinks I might be a tad tired tomorrow morning...
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Posted By: mitch65
Date Posted: 02 Jul 2015 at 6:42pm
Soon be the weekend ------------- Greg Rega Planer 3 Gram Amp 2 Audiolab 8000A Auralic Aries Mini Russell K 50 |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 02 Jul 2015 at 9:55pm
| Hehe. Sleep is for wimps! |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 03 Jul 2015 at 12:20am
 I'm speechless!
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Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 03 Jul 2015 at 1:10am
------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 03 Jul 2015 at 2:10pm
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That's a given but for the sake of newbs reading this who aren't yet au fait GSP, the Bitzie and Lautus (in my case with the powered option) is amazing! And considering it was only powered up for about 12 hours before I got to play with it, I'm in awe that it will improve throughout the burn-in process! Using my regular testing tracks (ranging from classical - soul - jazz - latin - electronic - folk and recorded in 320bps MP3 - 192khz/24bit flac) I was bowled over! I KNOW these songs but it was a new experience for me! The presentation was so delicately intimate and the music was so natural that, when coupled with my HD540 IIs, I felt like the music was plugged directly into my brain! The headphones disappeared even more than they already do and it was just me and the music. Listening to Rodrigo y Gabriela's rendition of Stairway to Heaven (just 2 acoustic guitars and you) was gobsmackingly beautiful. The guitar strings sounded so natural and real, the reverb through the wood, the ringing of the strings... I haven't heard anything like that since I put down my guitar years ago! Moving on to RLS' Opus One, it may be electro-something but I now know why it is used in car SQ competitions. All the extra sounds that are added to it are electrifying! After I finished with my regular test tracks, I moved on to some of my "new" albums (Pink Floyd, Eric Clapton, Elvis, Norah Jones, Jimmy Smith, B.B. King...). The experience got better! What originally started out as a quick listen before bed while playing card games on my phone ended up with me being so drawn in to the music, my phone got an earlier night than I did. Graham, thank you! *Salute* P.S. The Bitzie works perfectly with Winamp too in all the bit rates so thank you for not severing our almost 20-year relationship.
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Posted By: Chris Firth
Date Posted: 03 Jul 2015 at 2:45pm
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It's good to hear you getting on with the Bitzie and Winamp. Have you got ASIO or WASAPI plugins installed? |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 03 Jul 2015 at 5:54pm
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Who? I only have whatever Winamp came with in the free download. Should I?
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Posted By: Chris Firth
Date Posted: 03 Jul 2015 at 7:46pm
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Yes! Oh yes!! WASAPI drivers are intended for Vista machines and onward. ASIO is what preceded WASAPI, and sometimes the hardware you point Winamp at never had WASAPI drivers written, so you use the ASIO ones instead. In a nutshell, ASIO and WASAPI drivers give the hardware the media player is pointed at have priority over all other system sounds processing, with the result that sound quality noticeably improves. I see that there are no device drivers required to get a Bitzie up and running, which means that you should only need to install the ASIO or WASAPI drivers into Winamp, and then redirect Winamp to playback via the hardware using the ASIO or WASAPI driver. It's well worth giving a go. |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 03 Jul 2015 at 9:38pm
| Thanks for that Chris. I read up on it, downloaded the needed bits. I'm on XP Pro so I'm trying ASIO now. It sounds quite drastically different! |
Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 03 Jul 2015 at 9:40pm
Good? ------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 03 Jul 2015 at 9:43pm
| I tried only one song I already knew (but not that well) and now I'm listening to a Deep Purple hits collection I just bought. Let me try some of my better known ones... |
Posted By: Chris Firth
Date Posted: 03 Jul 2015 at 10:02pm
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With my streaming I use a Squeezebox Touch running EDO, so I have little requirement for ASIO and WASAPI drivers. However, when it comes to recording and playback of recorded files on my laptop via my EMU0404 USB I use the ASIO drivers for both recording and playback, and I reckon that it brings around a 10% improvement in quality, which is an excellent return for the outlay. I also have a HiFace2 USB to SPDIF adapter, and that again brings a major lift in sound quality when I play files off the laptop through it using the WASAPI drivers. I use Foobar2000 as my media player of choice - it's quite hair shirt, and requires very little system resource to run. It is also very powerful, because of the community of code writers writing plugins for it, so it will process a very wide range of file formats as a result. The facility to play back ALAC files was removed from Foobar a while ago because Apple got all arsey about it because someone reverse engineered the ALAC playback coding and then came up with their own version of it that worked just as well as Apple's version - Graham's comments about Apple's activities are not knocking Apple for the sake of it - as a corporation their operations are on the sharp side. You can have whatever you want provided you're prepared to pay for it. |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 03 Jul 2015 at 11:37pm
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It worked fine until I tried some 96/24 flac files (which didn't work) and then strangely wouldn't play some 320CBR MP3s either but was fine with most! I will have to experiment further because Winamp allows me to play even 176/24 (flac) files with the Bitzie through the standard output plugins... I can't comment on the SQ because it sounded like there was more high frequency presence which didn't mix well with the Deep Purple songs... But I'm withholding judgement until I find out more about the MP3 issue.
As for the Apple comments... I completely agree with Graham's feelings, always have. Apple's dictatorship err business ethics give me reason enough to steer clear, but I will avoid further comments for fear of rousing the fanboys as I know people who think for themselves must be destroyed... |
Posted By: Chris Firth
Date Posted: 04 Jul 2015 at 8:24am
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The reason your 24/96 files wouldn't play is because the Bitzie does up to 24/48, and the ASIO drivers stop the playing machine from resampling on the fly. With ASIO enabled the native bitrate is what you get. It's not a problem if the DAC can handle everything you throw at it up to 24/192 (my DACs can, as can The Majestic), but you need to point your device output back at the normal drivers to enable resampling if the output device won't handle the sample rates. I have an issue with the audio output of the built in sound card on the desktop computer here - it won't play 88.2 kHz, 176.4 kHZ or 192 kHz files when WASAPI is enabled, and there's no fix. The clock oscillator will not operate at those frequencies. The mobo sound was designed to handle 44.1 kHz, 48 kHz and 96 kHz natively, and that's it. I've marked the bit in bold, because it's a pointer as to what ASIO and WASAPI drivers do. They bypass the automatic resampling thing your average computer will try to do. They also stop bings and bongs from interrupting music playback, because the playback of music takes priority. If I am playing music in Foobar that is one of the native sample rates my machine can play, and I have enabled WASAPI, if I try to play a video off Youtube there is no sound, because the Foobar playback takes priority. I get the visuals, but no sound. |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 04 Jul 2015 at 11:35am
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Thanks for the detailed response Chris. I know the Bitzie doesn't play such high bit rates and that's fine by me as I'm not a "specs" sort of person; I just happen to have a few HQ albums. It's weird that the standard plugins do though but I guess ASIO isn't adjusting them. What I don't understand is why it wouldn't play a few MP3s... I read the manual before I installed ASIO and followed all the steps so I'm really not sure why but we'll see. I definitely like the idea of restricting background processes! That's partly why I've never put this PC on the internet.
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Posted By: Chris Firth
Date Posted: 04 Jul 2015 at 12:06pm
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The MP3 issue is an odd one. There's no reason why using ASIO drivers would stop them playing. I've had issues in the past with VBR MP3 files not playing over a Bluetooth hookup, whereas CBR MP3 files played just fine. It might be something like that, although I can't for the life of me see that affecting something that's wired. Maybe it does, and it's another nugget of knowledge acquired  |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 04 Jul 2015 at 3:12pm
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I'm not sure. I'm sure I'll work it out eventually. For future purchases then (providing HDTracks UK ever gets any albums I actually want...) would you suggest 24/48 instead then? I think I read somewhere that Graham(?) said anything over that is actually pointless, but I don't remember clearly. |
Posted By: Chris Firth
Date Posted: 04 Jul 2015 at 3:55pm
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I'd suggest getting downsampling any files the Bitzie can't play natively to 24/48 and keep the original files intact and unmolested. Then play the 24/48 files using ASIO. |
Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 04 Jul 2015 at 5:22pm
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Have you tried hiresaudio.com ? I find it cheaper and less intrusive than HDtracks. Qobuz is also good, but at £20/month expensive if you don't use it a lot. It seems an unfortunate fact that the higher resolution formats are often the better mastered versions, otherwise 48/24 is more than adequate. ------------- Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it. |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 04 Jul 2015 at 10:16pm
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Good idea Chris, I'll look into it. Thanks BiB, highresaudio.com looks great, and they have much more choice the HDTracks (UK)! I'm definitely going to buy from them. |
Posted By: DaveG
Date Posted: 04 Jul 2015 at 10:32pm
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I also use hiresaudio. I find their website easier to navigate & they don't fill my inbox full of spam. They also guarantee genuine 24bit remasters rather than just upsamples some less scrupulous sites have passed off in the past ------------- Dave Michell Gorbe + HR PSU -> Cadenza Bronze -> SME V -> Elevator -> Accession -> Proprius -> B&W CM6 s2 | Cusat 50 & Spatia cables ->
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Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 04 Jul 2015 at 10:44pm
Quite true. ------------- Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 04 Jul 2015 at 11:15pm
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I turn off "sounds" in "control panel" settings on PCs and laptops to good effect, but I don't know if you can do that on other devices. ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 04 Jul 2015 at 11:20pm
| I buy CDs, which are adequate for me. Only if the CD was mastered poorly would I seek out another source of a better master. I have many Red Book spec CDs (16-bit, 44.1kHz) and I've never felt a need to pursue a source of higher specifications. To tell you the truth, most of the audio spec stuff that we are fed is just dogmatic bullsh*t and has little real value in both in-depth science and in real life. High fidelity reproduction is a topic where limiting factors of performance must be carefully considered and understood before any real progress is made. I for one value independent thinking and I often trust my own judgement more than that of others (unless they clearly display intellectual wisdom) even though I am not an industry professional. Titles don't matter though; only the real world solutions have any importance to me. |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2015 at 10:16am
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DaveG & Bib - I agree. I regularly get sent special offers but they never have anything I want! I originally bought from the US site and they have better stuff but now you can't. Cheers Graham. I always do that when I first switch on the PC, and my phones for that matter! Can't stand the noise. Ash - I do the same too, and it's cheaper as I go for good condition used as I only use once to rip. The only "HD" albums I've bought were a Head-Fi one for testing headphones and about 3 others. With this new site, I may start buying more from there but CDs will likely still win. The problem is you can't always know beforehand if it's a good quality recording so the HD version presents itself as a (slightly) more reliable/trustworthy option. The only difference I've noticed between 16/44.1 and HD though is there is generally less hiss on the recordings. I understand that is due to the mastering/age but I wish it was easier to find the good quality CDs! A few I've bought recently sound good but the hiss...
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Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2015 at 10:34am
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Hiss? 16 bit gives -96dB noise floor, and OK I know there are some people with bat ears, but seriously, if there is hiss on 16 bit material it's not because of the number of bits. ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2015 at 11:15am
| I agree with Graham on this matter. If there is audible hiss on the 16-bit recording, wouldn't this hiss be even more prominent on the "hi-res" files that have the higher sampling frequencies necessary to reproduce more high frequency information. Also, 24-bit is functionally 20-bit and each bit doesn't have an equal dynamic range margin associated with it as it is not a linear scale. I would be grateful if Graham could post some mathematical formulae here expressing how the dB scale is logarithmic/exponential so I can try and get my head around it. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2015 at 11:31am
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Sorry: this video autoplays! You can stop it by hitting its pause button. It may be slow to load on some connections so please give it time to load. It is really good at showing the truth about digital audio (provided you want to hear the truth). ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2015 at 11:42am
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Well my daytime name is Wuce Bayne... I don't think it's due to the bits (I don't understand the tech-side as you and Ash are great at dumbing it down for me ), I just think it's that they try harder when mixing so as to justify the "HD" title.A few recent examples: Experience Hendrix - GT Hits and Deep Purple - The Platinum Collection. The music sounds perfectly crisp but in some tracks especially, the hiss is equally well defined and loud (to me) as well. But then with B.B. King - His Definitive Hits and Mongo Santamaría - Watermelon Man, all hiss is pretty much non-existent. For clarification, I know it's not the Bitzie as I can hear it through anything I listen.
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Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2015 at 12:06pm
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Did the video above your post not play? Somwhere on it is the explanation of the hiss. Often these CDs were from master tapes and only had 13 bits if you were lucky. I don't know where they get HDs with "no noise". The section you want is that where he's got a compact cassette. Bits = noise floor position. Vinyl is around 12-13 bit, the conversion is easy: one bit is 6dB. 12 bit is therefore 72dB... that's S/N, so the noise is a negative figure: -72dB. Simples! Compact cassette was really noisy, in bits it could be as bad as three! That's 18dB S/N (3 x 6), the noise being -18dB. 16 bit equates to 96dB S/N. The noise is -96dB below the signal. 24 bit is 20 bit plus some bits (4) for non-audio stuff. 20 x 6 = 120dB. 120dB is the stated S/N for 24 bit. The noise is -120dB. Can you tell the difference between -96dB and -120dB? No? Well yes, but only if the gain is turned right up. But then as the music goes up by the same amount, you have to turn it down so it's comfy, and the noise goes down with it, because it's a ratio. Graham ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2015 at 12:27pm
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Sorry Graham. I'd been typing my reply for a while and then got distracted so when I finally posted it, yours and Ash's had come in. I've downloaded the video and will watch it soon. I'm not sure if it brings anything to the discussion or not but when I went on my headphone demo, some headphones made hiss "disappear" (HD800s and HE-6s especially) whereas others amplified it. I didn't have these specific tracks at the time to try but I had others with noticeable hiss (some Beatles remasters). I did an A-B test with my K701s yesterday and they minimise the hiss (slightly) too... Not too big a deal as the music is crisp and generally the hiss on most albums is really quiet/non-existent, just those particular examples are quite prominent. But as I said, it's hard to know whether you get a good (CD) album or not. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2015 at 12:52pm
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Probably tape hiss and somehow the HDs have it dithered down - but they don't say. ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2015 at 1:08pm
| I just watched the whole video and yes, perhaps the HD versions of the recordings have had dither applied to manipulate background noise into being less audible by putting the higher noise floor parts in less sensitive regions of our hearing and the lower noise floor parts in the regions of highest hearing acuity. |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2015 at 3:33pm
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That video was very educational, thanks Graham! It certainly sounds like dithering could cause differences (no pun intended) so I decided to do some tests of hiss levels (ignoring SQ for this). Here are my results: Jimi Hendrix - Purple Haze may become my benchmark for how bad hiss can be... It is ridiculously noticeable, and only in the left channel which plays different instruments (mono recording?). My own 16/44.1 rip. I tried Sam Cooke - Portrait of a Legend (24/88) and there is hiss but at a more accepted (normal?) level. I moved on to Mongo Santamaría - Watermelon Man (my own 16/44.1 rip) and it sounds similar to Sam Cooke. That normal level isn't what I was originally talking about but for the purpose of this test, I'm focussing on all hiss. Deep Purple - The Platinum Collection, again my own 16/44.1 rip. Hush has hiss (try saying that after a few!) that isn't quite as "loud" as Purple Haze but stands out because it changes slightly in each channel every second so draws my attention to it. Child in Time however is up there with the best of them. ELP - Fanfare for the Common Man (only discovered that due to Ash's YouTube teaser of Graham's Roadshow, thanks guys!) also has outstanding levels of "silence". After further testing, the only 24 bit tracks where I don't notice hiss (in actuality it is simply extremely quiet but still there) are "specially recorded/produced" tracks (David Chesky, etc). I'm not sure if that makes a difference (special production techniques, mics, etc?) but the hiss is so low it sounds like there is none. However I think at best, it is only slightly better (if at all!) than the best of 16/44.1 tracks. Without trawling through the rest of my 13,000 tracks, I can't compare to any MP3s. As I said earlier though, they do seem have more attention paid to their mastering... So what have we learned then? Apart from the fact that I have WAY too much time on my hands , as Ash has said from the beginning the mastering of the track matters more than the numbers. Man, do I need to get out more...
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Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2015 at 8:27pm
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The hiss on the old recordings will always be there although it is probably being 'gated' i.e. the level is being automatically reduced in quieter passages. That can create a noise tail where you notice the noise as the note fades. In the manual equivalent You can probably hear places where a noisy track a hissy or humming guitar amp is faded up as that instrument starts to play and then dipped down as the notes finish. Digital restoration can do wonders with old records as you can fix clicks and sample the noise signature for a modern version of noise gating. The problem with tapes is that the noise floor isn't constant as most tapes have noise reduction that has been encoded on the tape like DBX and Dolby. It would be easy to decode if it were fixed pre-emphasis (i.e. treble boost to be reversed on playback) but it's usually dynamic encoding with compression of signal range onto tape and expansion to reverse this on playback. With Dolby there is a treble emphasis that varies with signal level, really clever for improving signal to noise on that machine but challenging years later. In 'remastering' my old band recordings and demos I found Dolby B and C is really hard to decode now on different equipment. The decay in magnetic signal and physical deterioration of cassette tape doesn't help. Anyway it's worth remembering that many classic albums were recorded quickly to be issued fast in an era when the 'warts' were lost in the record surface noise and vinyl roar. The remasters we hear now will only be as good as the original tracks, albeit after some digital restoration. I would have been out but it's still raining here! Please ignore the numbers and enjoy the music as you suggested. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2015 at 9:13pm
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With almost all of the video game soundtrack CDs and CD albums from obscure underground artists that I have, the quality of the mastering of the Red Book spec files on the discs is typically excellent. If it's not, I would not expect a "higher resolution" file to improve things if they didn't bother to give any care to mixing and mastering the material well the first time. In fact, if the mixing was that bad or if they contained lots of hiss, I'd probably rather convert it to a lossy format so that the music becomes less distinct in high frequency details and hope that the imperfections could be smoothed over by good musicality. And if good musicality isn't there to save the day either, well, then I wouldn't be listening to the material to begin with. That's just the way I look at it though.
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Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2015 at 11:57pm
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Cheers Jon. The rushed recording suggestion makes sense to me. All the songs I found that are guilty of the loudest hiss seem to be from the 60/early 70s (although many others I have from the same time period are fine). From memory all of my pre-60s music are relatively hiss free too, whether remastered or not. It's a shame that some of the biggest hits of that period could have so easily been mastered better. Shortcuts on the way to making a quick buck I guess. That's a good suggestion Ash, thanks. Are those game soundtracks recorded with real instruments/orchestras or are they electronic? Because the latter bypasses the steps of recording analogue sounds, in my experience it sounds better as there's less to interfere with the music.
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Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2015 at 11:22am
I meant to say in my earlier post, I read the article "Why 192Khz 24bit downloads are very silly" (mentioned at the beginning of the video Graham shared) yesterday. A very interesting read... It proves that 16/44.1 is the highest quality digital music that can be achieved and better yet, anything over that actually sounds worse due to ultrasonics!
Have a read here: http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html |
Posted By: DaveG
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2015 at 4:46pm
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The cynical might say it's a way to flog you the stuff you've already bought all over again! I don't know that higher sample rates sound any better or any worse per se, too many other variables.. like the quality of replay hardware & of course as others have said.. quality of mastering. I have CD's going back to mid 80's. Some are good, Lambchop's "Is a Woman" springs to mind as I was listening to it only last night. But some transfers are absolutely shocking. It was only when I started getting back into vinyl that I realised how bad some, mostly reissues, could be compared to the original analogue. If nothing else, there seems to at least be an attempt to remaster properly with the Hires stuff, for which I guess we should be thankful. ------------- Dave Michell Gorbe + HR PSU -> Cadenza Bronze -> SME V -> Elevator -> Accession -> Proprius -> B&W CM6 s2 | Cusat 50 & Spatia cables ->
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Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2015 at 7:50pm
"Sounds worse" may be an oversimplification as the article mentioned double-blind tests where people couldn't tell the difference between the two. It did say that the inaudible frequencies that 24/192 contains (above 20KHz) "distract" the drivers from the frequencies that are audible, thus making it "sound worse". The article does a much better job of explaining it than I do though. I understand the cynicism but if you already have HD music, why would you need to buy it again on CD? Just down-convert it. And considering CDs cost less than HD downloads, wouldn't you technically be saving money on future purchaces? I agree about mastering being the most important factor; I have one CD inparticular where the music actually has severe clipping (almost a grinding sound) in the high frequencies of the chorus! I believe good mastering was viewed as a given as the article focussed purely on the scientific facts of 24/192 vs 16/44.1. It has an interesting explanation on the whole point of 24 bit too! I think it's fair to say that there is no comparison between analogue and digital; analogue will always sound better but it requires more TLC. But as I said before (and in agreement with your final comment), the mastering seems to be more reliable with hires. If bluray is anything to go by though, they do at times make some serious blunders (HD films, SD soundtracks!!)... |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2015 at 8:28pm
| It's a shame that some listeners seem to attribute the difference between vinyl and CD playback to be due to bit-depth (noise floor level) and sample rate (frequency range that can be reproduced). People think that they're not enjoying CD as much because it's too noisy or doesn't cover the full range of their hearing?? A fixation on these numbers is nonsensical really... I've heard better mp3 rips than some WAV rips. If the master sucks, it truly will suck no matter what format it is transformed into. So why does the fond interest in vinyl still exist? Well, I'm not an engineer and putting the materialistic preference aside, I have reason to believe that vinyl wins in phase response; the timing that seems to be the key to good musicality. You start to lose the rhythm and timing and you've killed it. I seriously think that this is why many vinyl renditions beat the CD rendition. It's the phasing, not the noise floor level or lack of frequencies outside the clearly audible range. |
Posted By: DaveG
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2015 at 8:41pm
Oh I agree, Actually what I was trying to say was the exact opposite of the above. I'm doubtful of the advantages of Hires just for it's own sake. For example with my DAC I can upsample or use no oversampling & can apply different filters. I can also play back in 2xDSD using software. My conclusion so far is if it was 16/44.1 to start with, leave well alone. That doesn't discredit Hires though, it could just mean that I have a crap DAC, or I am deaf or... well you get the idea. In the 80's rush to digital there was a proliferation of poor AAD transfers (mostly back catalogues) as the record companies made money out selling you your old vinyl stuff in new the new perfect sound forever digital format. Now the same is happening with Hires. It's marketing. That doesn't mean that Hires is a bad thing, or conversely that CD is bad. Better understanding of digital over the last 30 years has surely brought some gains? Revisiting some of those poor transfers can mean you end up with a better digital transfer. But I wouldn't buy a hires version of something that I have on CD if I thought the CD sounded good. Likewise, although vinyl is my favoured medium I'd find it hard to argue that it is in anyway technically better in any of the ways people measure these things - except in my own personal enjoyment. Which I guess for all of us is what matters. The fact my vinyl front end cost 10 times what my DAC did could also be a factor  Maybe if I spent that on a CD player?PS just saw Ash's post while writing this. YES! ------------- Dave Michell Gorbe + HR PSU -> Cadenza Bronze -> SME V -> Elevator -> Accession -> Proprius -> B&W CM6 s2 | Cusat 50 & Spatia cables ->
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Posted By: Drewan77
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2015 at 8:15am
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I’m not entirely convinced by any of the arguments either way on the subject of digital vs analogue or 44/16 vs 24/192 because analogue recording and mastering has involved various levels of processing (i.e. Dolby) since the mid 60’s and progressively more sophisticated digital processing since the 80’s. So who’s to know what we have actually been listening to - AAA, AAD, DDD etc, or perhaps more controversially, who cares? Why do I say that? Well my listening preferences will always be ‘vinyl’ but that has as much to do with the fact that I grew up with this medium and have lived with it since my teens and I enjoy the whole experience. Yes, a beautifully mastered and recorded LP seems to sound the most natural and life-like but, equally, I own a lot of mid-late 60’s & 70’s records where ’sound quality’ is quite frankly poor - often thin and bass-light (I don’t believe this is necessarily to do with RIAA curves either). I guess that compromises had to be made either because of limitations of the original tape (clipping?) or because of narrow spacing between the grooves, allowing for a smaller dynamic range so an album could fit within two standard LP sides. Take original copies of classic rock albums such as ‘My Generation’ or ‘Led Zeppelin 4’ where Moon & Bonhams’ Drums are certainly powerful but by no means as deep, dynamic or ‘realistic’ as found on many recent vinyl releases - predominantly digitally processed and sometimes spread over 3 LP sides or running at 45 RPM. I will always order a vinyl version of an album in preference to any other medium but am the first to admit that I can get as much pleasure from CDs, SACDs, FLAC’s and sometimes even well mastered 320 MP3s. I have all the Eagles albums both as vinyl and 24/192 FLAC as well as my wifes’ double CD ‘best of’ & I get as much pleasure from all versions if I happen to play them. I don’t listen out for ‘differences’ so I am not in a position to say one format is ‘better’ or that hi-res digital formats are meaningless. Add to this, the fact that most live music these days is digitally mixed or processed so perhaps it is better to just enjoy the music for what it is ! As Jon Berg says in his strapline: ‘open mind and ears’ ------------- Older than I once was, younger than I'll be ............................. Andrew |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2015 at 9:24am
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I personally don't think analogue can be compared to digital as they are different technologies; analogue to analogue and digital to digital in my book. And neither can mastering be used when discussing the technology as it is a variable; the tech isn't. A well mastered LP would wipe the pants off of a poorly mastered CD and vice versa. But what does that prove? Only what has been agreed on time and again: a good master, irrespective of the format it is recorded on to, is a good master! As was my original point though, the problem is (reliably) finding well mastered media in the format you want of the music you want in the first place!
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Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2015 at 1:32pm
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Andrew, I couldn't agree more. There are good, indifferent and poor recordings in all formats. I too have a prference for vinyl, but it is not an overriding factor. Availability (and sometimes cost) also come into my decision as to which format to buy, I don't necessarily seek out HiRes files it is just that they are often all that is available, discounting low rate MP3 versions that is. Many 70s vinyl recordings were very disappointing when played on half decent systems, but on the very common "portable" record players they sounded just the same as they did on the radio! Two examples that disappoint me to this day are AC/DC For Those About To Rock and The Deep Purple Singles A's and B's. They've both had all the dynamic range crushed, leaving a very flat lacklustre sound, the Deep Purple LP is a compilation, perhaps recorded from7" singles played on a Dansette? As the vocals come and go you can hear Organ, lead Guitar and Drum breaks being brought to the fore in the mix in a quite heavy handed way. Even later in the 90s I have a" DCC Compact Classics Limited Edition" pressing of Red Octopus by Jefferson Starship, a remastered edition of their 1975 album, which is quite lifeless. Much the same can be said for CDs over the years. I feel that there is no truly superior format that guarantees good quality recordings, as they are all at the mercy of the mastering and production processes. All so disappointing when we know how good recordings can be. ------------- Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it. |