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Speaker Advice for Bitzie System (Take II)

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miT View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote miT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2016 at 12:17am
Thanks Ash. I've tried the Adam monitors a couple of times and found them a tad muddy (to my ears). The Eve equivalents/copies were clearer in comparison, but I've not found a shop to do an A-B between them and the demo rooms were different in each dealer.
One reason I'm intrigued by Genelec is that they seem to have actually thought about their designs; e.g. Each model has specifically designed curved faces to eliminate diffractions. They also produce a chart to show the distances that each speaker is most effective!
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Ash View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ash Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2016 at 11:22pm
I'm not a fan of putting speakers into wooden boxes. It's typically just a waste of sound transparency in my opinion unless some serious thought has gone into the characteristics of the enclosure. For nearfield listening, I feel the disadvantages of the traditional timber box design far outweigh the benefits. I would evaluate the sound of any speaker based on a direct comparison with the AKG K1000. I expect a good speaker to be a genuine upgrade to what the K1000 provides. I think LS3/5a and others seriously suck in comparison. The stereo field may be larger but the frequency accuracy is dreadful in comparison IMO. The LS3/5a V2 costs over £1000 too. WTF?! For a box speaker with conventional drivers that offers very little original thinking... All four pairs of my specialist Mark Audio drivers cost about £850 collectively, with £200 to spare for enclosure/baffle materials if the total cost were to equate to the approx £1040 spend for the LS3/5a V2. Hell, I could put one pair of my £240 Alpair 12P in big thick cardboard boxes and I bet they'd blow the LS3/5a out of the water if you compared the sound obtainable.

So if you're willing to shell out many hundreds of pounds for active box speakers like the Genelecs, might be worth saving your money for a few more months instead and allocating about £1200 to the Proprius then just use cheap generic cables and entry-level approx £80 pair of Mark Audio drivers to get you started. Just the way I look at it though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ash Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2016 at 11:27pm
Also, hack away at the unessential. Do you have any redundant equipment you could sell to restore purposeful money?

(Yes, I am ruthlessly honest even if I verge on borderline disrespectful or bigoted. But hey, I'm not afraid to be unpopular if it gets the job done.)

Edited by Ash - 31 Oct 2016 at 11:50pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 2016 at 7:41am
I use Focal CMS40 for my pc audio/gaming. They are very well reviewed if that means anything. I find them pretty good - nice even tonality & transparency and I preferred them to several others I listened to, incl Adam (A7x from memory). I bought them from a some pro audio shop where they had about 10 pairs of speakers on a switch box thingy. They have HF & LF filters which can help tailor the sound to your liking. A bit flat soundstaging wise, but they are plonked on a desk either side of a pc monitor so maybe not surprising. Quite expensive tho' I didn't realise when I first started looking at pro monitors that they are typically priced as singles.


Edited by DaveG - 01 Nov 2016 at 7:43am
Dave

Michell Gorbe + HR PSU -> Cadenza Bronze -> SME V -> Elevator -> Accession -> Proprius -> B&W CM6 s2 | Cusat 50 & Spatia cables ->
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Drewan77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 2016 at 8:00am
Not wanting to cause controversy Ash but in my experience, there are actually many excellent speakers out there, whether sealed cabinet, ported, transmission line, horn, open baffle, active etc. The issue is not the anechoic performance of the speaker itself or the skill of the designer, it's the effect of the room they are used in.

Here's my reasoning:

When we had an extension, including a kids playroom back in the early 80s, this was built to the so called 'golden ratio' with a solid, non resonating floor & walls (all but the rear). This was always intended to be a music room, which it became in the early 2000s.

Like many hifi enthusiasts chasing the perfect sound, a succession of equipment passed through including various sets of speakers, several of which I still have. I also tried Miller & Kreisel subs with a M&K passive crossover box & with JBL's, Castle's, Royd's and then Shainian's this was often pretty good. However on some recordings, room nodes annoyed me, so much so that I started to research alternatives. It led me firstly to DSP and then latterly to open baffle speakers. However ( it's a big 'however'), OBs do have their own compromises, in spite of a magical, airy realism that is very beguiling. Moving air to achieve anything like a sense of scale is the main issue.

This is where DSP can work its magic - the DEQX processors that I possess basically take an outdoor anechoic measurement of your speakers using a series of rising frequency pulses via a calibrated Earthworks microphone.

Creating a correction filter, internal algorithms then correct phase & timing across all frequencies, ether with the users' own chosen digital crossovers or any inbuilt passive speaker crossovers. It corrects exactly what it hears, including the effect if any of the interconnects, power amps and speaker cabling. It also corrects for any variations or deficiencies between the drivers so you have two identicallly performing speakers to work with.

What we now have is the raw material to compare against a second measurement taken in the listening room. In this case, the user has the ability to adjust any further timing or phase issues to the seating position(s), allowing for whatever placements are used, including subs or speakers up to 3-way.

Room eq can also be applied with the ability to select frequency, level & Q (bandwidth) at multiple points, including an inverse function where reverses of the room plot can be created. I use this feature sparingly.

Finally, there can be up to 4 active configs, selectable by remote, useful when setting the system up but also to create four slightly different frequency responses to suit thin or bass heavy recordings. This aspect is very useful..

For me one of the most impressive features is that using any of the various speakers that I have calibrated and in two different rooms, the end frequency result is very close regardless of the type or brand of original speaker and in no case is there a sense of boominess or room nodes, even on the worst recordings. Bass is tight, tuneful and exactly as I like it. By using this equipment, I have been able to 'have my cake and eat it' - an OB speaker system which (almost!) produces the speed & slam of a live performance. As well as any other system I like in any other room with an equally smooth performance.

So Ash, it is not so that conventional boxed speakers are flawed....it is the room that usually spoils things. I may be using equipment at the highest end of current technology but there are plenty of other devices out there that achieve some of this.



Edited by Drewan77 - 01 Nov 2016 at 8:13am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richardl60 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 2016 at 2:59pm
I agree with drewans opening paragraph and the remainder appears logical though Ill infomed to comment from any experience.

Whilst I believe a lot of speakers may not be that well engineered or designed if open baffle designs were the best generic design I am sure someone somewhere would have made a mint from them by now.

That isn't to suggest they cannot work and there are a few I am aware of who do use open drivers on HF units for example and or in specific location but probably not as a general rule.

I suspect that we're ash does have a very valid point is that many speakers are probably not well designed in the first place. And good engineering can overcome inherent issues in design.
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miT View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote miT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 2016 at 9:32pm
Originally posted by Richardl60 Richardl60 wrote:

Whilst I believe a lot of speakers may not be that well engineered or designed if open baffle designs were the best generic design I am sure someone somewhere would have made a mint from them by now... 
Shocked You're taking your life in your own hands saying that sort of blasphemy around here! Ash has probably launched an ICBM at your house already... LOL
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