Speaker Advice for Bitzie System (Take II)
Printed From: Graham Slee Hifi System Components
Category: And the rest
Forum Name: Transducers, Speakers, Mics...
Forum Description: Interested in bi-amping, tri-amping, crossovers, speaker design, miking techniques, EQ - the list goes on
URL: https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4055
Printed Date: 27 Mar 2026 at 12:44am
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Topic: Speaker Advice for Bitzie System (Take II)
Posted By: miT
Subject: Speaker Advice for Bitzie System (Take II)
Date Posted: 28 Oct 2016 at 12:20am
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Good evening all, Apologies for not being active around here for a while; it's been busy year with the new job, the birth of our little boy, moving house and sudden family health issues. After somehow surviving on auto-pilot, I now need my music back so as to de-stress. (Just to clarify, it wasn't shelved by choice; my PC failed before Benji was born and furniture came first ever since.) With the PC currently being operated on as a temporary fix until I can get a replacement, I hope to have it back up and running soon but that leads me to my current problem. My "office" in the new house is essentially a large cupboard (1.8 x 1.7m) and I am convinced my existing 8" coax active monitors (Fluid Audio FX8) will be overkill for such a small room so I'm in the market for something more suitable. Ash had long ago sorted me out with some Sennheiser HD540IIs but I don't feel comfortable using headphones anymore with a 6.5 month old at large so I need to get some new speakers. I have tried a few and liked the Genelec 8020C but need a second demo for these. I have looked at the Equator Audio D5s as I like the coax sound "signature" but I'm unsure if 5" speakers would also sound messy in my tiny room, plus I have to find somewhere to demo them. Any ideas? Am I missing any other small/desktop monitors? And what size speakers would be ok in this room size? Thanks in advance, miT
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Replies:
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 28 Oct 2016 at 2:33pm
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Great to see you back again; it's certainly been a while. I have used the Equator D5 active speakers in the past. Their reproduction was pretty decent but lacked purity and in a small room, the bass of such a cabinet speaker is going to be accentuated and boomy. I eventually sold mine because I didn't enjoy them enough. It was with this listening experience that I opted for the Slee Proprius monoblocks to well and truly sort out speaker amplification; no need to upgrade this part of the chain now. The cost was hefty but was worth it. Then all I had to do then was find great sounding speaker cones to pair with them, which don't even need to be expensive or fancy to give superb results. The Proprius monoblocks themselves are suitable for any room size whilst the optimum size of driver is variable and dependent on the volume of space you need to fill with sound. You can just mount good drivers on cardboard baffles or in cardboard boxes and put grilles over them if needed. Would be really cheap to do. How is the condition of your HD540II? If you've taken good care of them, their potential sale value should be pretty high.  They're great but if you no longer find yourself able to use them, selling is an option. Just remember how they sound and let this guide you. This or other audio items could be tactfully sold in order to liberate funds for speaker audio. I did tactful selling of all the headphones I used to own, to essentially pay for the speaker equipment I now use instead. I only have two K1000 now and I may take that down to one eventually. A Bitzie and Proprius combo is a superb core system that will get the best out of whatever transducer you put on the end of it. If you can go down this route, you won't be disappointed.
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Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 28 Oct 2016 at 4:47pm
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What's needed is a pair of nearfield active monitors. Nearfield because they're designed to work at short distances between you and them. Active because you need an amp built in (obvious). Your room isn't much bigger than the inside of an outside broadcast van. The beeb used to use LS35A's when they wanted high fidelity mix downs. The problem with the LS35A is they don't have an amp built in. If money was no object a pair of Proprius and a pair of LS35As would be the perfect solution (with suitable cables). ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2016 at 10:04am
| I highly endorse a pair of Proprius monoblocks; they are fantastic. I don't endorse the LS3/5a though; they don't do Graham's Proprius any justice IMO. I'd prioritise getting the Proprius to pair with your Bitzie then the electronics aspect of your system is sorted. after this, you can focus on your choice of cables and speaker. I highly recommend buying your own speaker drivers and at first mounting them on cardboard to learn how they and the room sounds. If you buy an active box speaker, you don't have the freedom to change the bits of it that aren't so good. |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2016 at 10:07am
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Going off beam a little but talking of the LS3/5a, I know Graham is attached to his. They were quite prevalent at hifi shows in the late 70s early 80s and were not to my taste, in the main due to their limited LF frequency range and their design brief unlikely to reflect the domestic needs or a larger room as graham sets out above. Falcon accoustics have sunk a lot of time and effort in to recreating the LS3/5a to as close to original spec as possible (15 ohm I believe) and from what I recall expensive in relative terms to their size (as we know size isn't always everything it is what you do with it). Given that Jerry who runs falcon is a huge IMF (transmission line fan) and owner last time I heard of the top end IMF rspm/SACM models which provide extremely low, controlled (subsonic <20hz) capability, it does appear at first appearance that investing time and money in the LS3/5a. Maybe he recognises the attributes of the LS3/5a or just sees it as a business opportunity, but there does seem to be an outlet for these 'minis' again. Any views on Falcon's midget gems Graham? |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2016 at 10:10am
| Ps missed a few words out in mid flow - I do find typing on iPad more difficult than it was in very narrow type box Andy large fonts. Not sure whether this the website set up or ipad? |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2016 at 9:59pm
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Having heard Graham's LS3/5A's powered by Proprius amps at pretty close range in the old HSC work shop, I would endorse the recommendations I've read above. I was very impressed by the precise positioning of instruments and effects across left to right in the mix on a mixture of songs/tracks, and the depth of the soundfield on some classical recordings was remarkable with instruments in the right places away from the front of the orchestra. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2016 at 9:40am
Thanks for the warm welcome Ash. It is great to be back! I seem to have missed a fair bit with the new site rolling out! The D5's were on my list due to your previous recommendations, plus my own experience with coax drivers. When I was looking last time, the improvement that type of driver brought to music (mainly noticed with classical) pretty much rendered traditional drivers defunct in my opinion. Sadly the new responsibilities of fatherhood and being the sole earner rule out any lavish expenditure, hence the idea of going with active monitors again. I don't plan to sell the headphones, they're just not going to be in use for a while. The benchmark they provide makes a great comparison.
Thanks for the advice Graham. Nearfield active monitors are what I have been looking for as "hifi" options are generally poor (hence we all come here!). I have been dying to experience the LS35As for years as I want to judge them with my own ears. A side point I have always wondered is why such high quality speakers where required in the first place. Forgive me naivity but high quality domestic TV and radio systems have only been mainstream in recent years so why would the Beeb require them for their engineers? More of an educational point.. As mentioned above, sadly the Proprius would push cost too high but have been something I've wanted for a long time. I go nowhere else for my musical needs so one day...
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Ash wrote:Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2016 at 10:14am
Thanks Richard. From my time with GSP and on the forum, the LS3/5As have struck me as the least discontinued of the bunch!  It says a lot that so many companies have been involved with trying to keep them alive for so long. I have long felt that the majority of people have been so corrupted by the mass produced lowfi junk out there that they have simply forgotten how to listen. Lowfi actually gives me a headache after being exposed for too long. How do they do it?
You're just rubbing it in now aren't you Jon?  You would think that such a "simple" task (i.e. Natural, precise music production) wouldn't be to much of a big ask from a company who make speakers, but most of them out there shouldn't be in production. Even some cheaper active studio monitors I have demo'd lasted seconds before politely asking the retailer to switch them off. Although I guess it explains why "music" nowadays sounds as bad as it does... As Ash said earlier that once the decent amplification I out of the way, the drivers themselves can be relatively cheap but still sound amazing. Of the few I have been able to demo so far Genelecs seem to be at the top of the list, although I want to demo them again to be sure. They even have a chart on their website of which model to go for at different listening distances; rather handy. Are there any other 4 or 5" + nearfield active monitors out there worth demo'ing? Cabling is a given (GSP or no one) but has anyone had any joy with room EQ software or products like miniDSP, Antimode or Dirac?
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Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2016 at 12:52pm
| Yes from my very limited exposure to new speakers I am inclined to agree. Large numbers of designs appears to being little genuinely new to the party particularly some of the mass producers. Two word reason in my view 'marketing men' pushing their wares to often guilable public. CD did I hear anyone say 'the perfect sound' I recall in some of the very early show demos? Only last night a friend said their son wanted a pair of Bose headphones. No idea what they are but sure they will not be bought for sound reasons. Info as falcon are making the drivers as I understand that ARE trying to recreate the original rather than a poor imitation. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2016 at 12:59pm
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You want Drewan77 regarding room EQ. Another way of getting "room EQ" right is to deaden it. I have to do this to my workshop extension because, with only the desk in, it resonates like crazy. It would have helped if it was built with a ratio of 1.6:1 (the "magic ratio") but at 1.4:1 it is at least similar to many lounges and living rooms. Once all my shelves complete with books and files are in, and my work station, cupboards and storage racks - as well as a couple of curtains (one across the glass door and the other to counter balance it the other side of the room) - it should be acoustically "good enough" for listening tests (as is the existing workshop next door). The worst acoustics are that of an empty or sparsely furnished room, where you'll get standing waves reinforcing or attenuating frequencies usually in the mid bass. ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Drewan77
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2016 at 1:13pm
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For room eq and DSP, yes I have tried miniDSP and was impressed enough to move on to DEQX processors in both my systems. Quality is in a different league but sadly so is the price ! I haven't used software based DSP because much of my listening is vinyl based but when I have been able to listen to an all-digital system (using Dirac), it was also very good. Correctly implemented digital crossover, phase, time alignment & room correction will remove any sense of the room-speaker interface, which often frustrates even the best systems. Taking Graham's comments above, I agree that room treatment and 'clutter' can go a long way to assist with acoustics. In my experience when phase and time alignment are precise & correct, the need for eq is quite minimal, usually subtle & only for a couple of room-node mid-bass frequencies. (Active monitors - I use a pair of M-Audio M3-8 active studio monitors in a second system. 3-way kevlar 8" & kevlar 5" containing a coaxially mounted 1" silk dome tweeter. Near field bass response, soundstage & imaging are very good, treble is smooth giving fatigue free listening for hours on end.They are quite large and heavy though, having a contoured wood front baffle designed to reduce edge diffraction). ------------- Older than I once was, younger than I'll be ............................. Andrew |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2016 at 6:48pm
I haven't been involved with speakers much during my limited career as an audio enthusiast. I bypassed hifi and went into headphones, which was how I stumbled across Graham, my only speakers being my cinema system until Benji was due and I had to get a speaker system. Now that I've had to look again due to moving and having a small "office", I've started demos again and have found much the same as you Richard. While I know they aren't worth heavily defending, I will say that at least Bose headphones are on the better side of average...
Thanks Graham. Due to the room being so small I am limited with what I can fit in there but I have made one wall (diagonally behind my listening position due to opting for a corner desk) full of shelves with DVDs which I hope will help. What are your thoughts on (proper) acoustic foam? I bought lots for our cinema room and while I haven't put them up yet, I can always buy more for my office.
Thanks Andrew. I think I will make a new thread to discuss this as your experience, plus any others out there deserves a new discussion. The M3-8s though... Very interesting! I'm not sure where I could demo them but the pair is cheaper than a single Genelec 8030!
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Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2016 at 8:00pm
| The problem with box speakers in small rooms, especially those with poor acoustics, is the reverberant energy the cabinet material can store and emit. Not only does it confine the sound, it also sends indirect energy reflecting around the room. For a small room, you'll want to go smaller than the Equator D5s, as even though the driver assembly is not particularly massive, the cabinet is bigger than you'd expect and the material is thick with a solid build. The box faces will emit vibrations too... Maybe look at something like the Adam A3X?? |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2016 at 12:17am
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Thanks Ash. I've tried the Adam monitors a couple of times and found them a tad muddy (to my ears). The Eve equivalents/copies were clearer in comparison, but I've not found a shop to do an A-B between them and the demo rooms were different in each dealer. One reason I'm intrigued by Genelec is that they seem to have actually thought about their designs; e.g. Each model has specifically designed curved faces to eliminate diffractions. They also produce a chart to show the distances that each speaker is most effective!
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Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2016 at 11:22pm
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I'm not a fan of putting speakers into wooden boxes. It's typically just a waste of sound transparency in my opinion unless some serious thought has gone into the characteristics of the enclosure. For nearfield listening, I feel the disadvantages of the traditional timber box design far outweigh the benefits. I would evaluate the sound of any speaker based on a direct comparison with the AKG K1000. I expect a good speaker to be a genuine upgrade to what the K1000 provides. I think LS3/5a and others seriously suck in comparison. The stereo field may be larger but the frequency accuracy is dreadful in comparison IMO. The LS3/5a V2 costs over £1000 too. WTF?! For a box speaker with conventional drivers that offers very little original thinking... All four pairs of my specialist Mark Audio drivers cost about £850 collectively, with £200 to spare for enclosure/baffle materials if the total cost were to equate to the approx £1040 spend for the LS3/5a V2. Hell, I could put one pair of my £240 Alpair 12P in big thick cardboard boxes and I bet they'd blow the LS3/5a out of the water if you compared the sound obtainable. So if you're willing to shell out many hundreds of pounds for active box speakers like the Genelecs, might be worth saving your money for a few more months instead and allocating about £1200 to the Proprius then just use cheap generic cables and entry-level approx £80 pair of Mark Audio drivers to get you started. Just the way I look at it though. |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2016 at 11:27pm
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Also, hack away at the unessential. Do you have any redundant equipment you could sell to restore purposeful money? (Yes, I am ruthlessly honest even if I verge on borderline disrespectful or bigoted. But hey, I'm not afraid to be unpopular if it gets the job done.)
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Posted By: DaveG
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2016 at 7:41am
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I use Focal CMS40 for my pc audio/gaming. They are very well reviewed if that means anything. I find them pretty good - nice even tonality & transparency and I preferred them to several others I listened to, incl Adam (A7x from memory). I bought them from a some pro audio shop where they had about 10 pairs of speakers on a switch box thingy. They have HF & LF filters which can help tailor the sound to your liking. A bit flat soundstaging wise, but they are plonked on a desk either side of a pc monitor so maybe not surprising. Quite expensive tho' I didn't realise when I first started looking at pro monitors that they are typically priced as singles. ------------- Dave Michell Gorbe + HR PSU -> Cadenza Bronze -> SME V -> Elevator -> Accession -> Proprius -> B&W CM6 s2 | Cusat 50 & Spatia cables ->
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Posted By: Drewan77
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2016 at 8:00am
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Not wanting to cause controversy Ash but in my experience, there are actually many excellent speakers out there, whether sealed cabinet, ported, transmission line, horn, open baffle, active etc. The issue is not the anechoic performance of the speaker itself or the skill of the designer, it's the effect of the room they are used in. Here's my reasoning: When we had an extension, including a kids playroom back in the early 80s, this was built to the so called 'golden ratio' with a solid, non resonating floor & walls (all but the rear). This was always intended to be a music room, which it became in the early 2000s. Like many hifi enthusiasts chasing the perfect sound, a succession of equipment passed through including various sets of speakers, several of which I still have. I also tried Miller & Kreisel subs with a M&K passive crossover box & with JBL's, Castle's, Royd's and then Shainian's this was often pretty good. However on some recordings, room nodes annoyed me, so much so that I started to research alternatives. It led me firstly to DSP and then latterly to open baffle speakers. However ( it's a big 'however'), OBs do have their own compromises, in spite of a magical, airy realism that is very beguiling. Moving air to achieve anything like a sense of scale is the main issue. This is where DSP can work its magic - the DEQX processors that I possess basically take an outdoor anechoic measurement of your speakers using a series of rising frequency pulses via a calibrated Earthworks microphone. Creating a correction filter, internal algorithms then correct phase & timing across all frequencies, ether with the users' own chosen digital crossovers or any inbuilt passive speaker crossovers. It corrects exactly what it hears, including the effect if any of the interconnects, power amps and speaker cabling. It also corrects for any variations or deficiencies between the drivers so you have two identicallly performing speakers to work with. What we now have is the raw material to compare against a second measurement taken in the listening room. In this case, the user has the ability to adjust any further timing or phase issues to the seating position(s), allowing for whatever placements are used, including subs or speakers up to 3-way. Room eq can also be applied with the ability to select frequency, level & Q (bandwidth) at multiple points, including an inverse function where reverses of the room plot can be created. I use this feature sparingly. Finally, there can be up to 4 active configs, selectable by remote, useful when setting the system up but also to create four slightly different frequency responses to suit thin or bass heavy recordings. This aspect is very useful.. For me one of the most impressive features is that using any of the various speakers that I have calibrated and in two different rooms, the end frequency result is very close regardless of the type or brand of original speaker and in no case is there a sense of boominess or room nodes, even on the worst recordings. Bass is tight, tuneful and exactly as I like it. By using this equipment, I have been able to 'have my cake and eat it' - an OB speaker system which (almost!) produces the speed & slam of a live performance. As well as any other system I like in any other room with an equally smooth performance. So Ash, it is not so that conventional boxed speakers are flawed....it is the room that usually spoils things. I may be using equipment at the highest end of current technology but there are plenty of other devices out there that achieve some of this. ------------- Older than I once was, younger than I'll be ............................. Andrew |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2016 at 2:59pm
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I agree with drewans opening paragraph and the remainder appears logical though Ill infomed to comment from any experience. Whilst I believe a lot of speakers may not be that well engineered or designed if open baffle designs were the best generic design I am sure someone somewhere would have made a mint from them by now. That isn't to suggest they cannot work and there are a few I am aware of who do use open drivers on HF units for example and or in specific location but probably not as a general rule. I suspect that we're ash does have a very valid point is that many speakers are probably not well designed in the first place. And good engineering can overcome inherent issues in design. |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2016 at 9:32pm
 You're taking your life in your own hands saying that sort of blasphemy around here! Ash has probably launched an ICBM at your house already...  |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2016 at 10:30pm
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Others are entitled to their own opinions, I'm not that bad. I just feel that in the fairly small domestic environment for quiet to moderate listening volumes, there is little benefit in having speakers in substantial timber boxes. Just overcomplicates a simple thing if you have a large driver. The more direct the sound is to your ears, the less significant the room interaction. Because you're listening in the nearfield, the drivers don't need to generate large sound pressure levels, so great bass is obtainable with the right choice of driver and coupled baffle. I am simply very unorthodox with the way I approach speaker audio. |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 02 Nov 2016 at 8:00am
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This discussion is interesting. Thank you to all who have taken part so far. In reply to the above comments: Ash - I can tell you're not married or have kids; you can still make justifiable (to us) but expensive purchases. My wife is among the most reasonable out there but I struggled getting her to sign off on the possibility of spending £600 on speakers. I haven't even mentioned a set of Graham's cables or that I may prefer the next price range up (as a long-term money saving investment, natch)... If money was no object, this whole thread would have been about speakers for my new Proprius amps but sadly not. One day... While I am lot less experienced in this than you I understand your feelings on the effect that some wooden cabinets create, but I also agree with other comments that not all speakers are bad, and that the room itself has big part to play. Having built my own subs and imported the drivers from the US due to being the highest fidelity sound, I completely agree with self-building and the benefit of using well-designed, high quality drivers, but also the need for room treatment/DSP. I think the main difference here is that your main system is for nearfield listening (as mine will be) whereas most of the others on here aren't. Nearfield listening would amplifly the smallest issues. It may be a different story in a bigger listening room but not necessarily. The £200k Steinway Lyngdorf stereo system I heard years ago were open baffle in a rather large room. Expensive but my limited time with them was rather impressive. I'm pretty sure most of us couldn't fit 7' speakers in our houses though! Although I'm not fully decided on the Genelecs yet (2nd demo tomorrow), their scientific design has certainly piqued my attention; I don't remember seeing as much thought put into enclosures for "cheap" speakers. And the fact that I haven't (yet) seen any other manufacturers going down the same road also says a lot to me, especially the aluminium enclosure. If you get a chance to look, I really would like to hear you views on their design. DaveG - Andertons sell Focals too so I'll add them to the demo list today. Was it Red Dog Music in Clapham by any chance? Drewan77 - I will make that new thread now! Richardl60 - I agree, but I think the equivalent of Ash's system would be the ludicrously elite in which case there are a few with odd designs like that. As mentioned above, the Steinway Lyngdorf Model D is one such example. They can be demo'd at Gecko Home Cinema who are the importer of MK speakers (they only do demos).
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Posted By: DaveG
Date Posted: 02 Nov 2016 at 11:54am
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No Tim, I got mine in guitarguitar in Epsom and it was all I could do to resist buying a Classic Fender Jazz bass while I was there (I haven't played in 20yrs). The Focals also have a cast aluminium cabinet so might be an interesting comparison with the Genelec - I haven't heard those myself. ------------- Dave Michell Gorbe + HR PSU -> Cadenza Bronze -> SME V -> Elevator -> Accession -> Proprius -> B&W CM6 s2 | Cusat 50 & Spatia cables ->
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Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 02 Nov 2016 at 8:06pm
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Yes, I am lucky that I am in a position where I can work, save and buy expensive items where I feel they are necessary for my enjoyment to progress. I agree that for any other type of speaker listening than the mid- to far- nearfield listening that I enjoy, my approach of 'no box at all' may become progressively less realistic. It is only optimal for the type of listening that I do. Room interaction is also a significant determinant of the resultant sound.
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Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 02 Nov 2016 at 9:29pm
| A close relative listened to a lot of options and ended up with some active Yamaha msf7 I think they were. Said sound surprisingly good for small units. Believe we're around £800 and previous ms5? Around £300 were good also. |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 02 Nov 2016 at 9:41pm
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Tim, maybe look at Ebay or the second-hand market for active speakers at a reduced price. Better value for money, to be had.
P.S This site just warned me about spam posting. I'm not that bad, am I??
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Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 02 Nov 2016 at 10:16pm
| Probably just clicked send twice Ash - happens all the time! |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2016 at 3:17pm
| Tim, the curved enclosures of Genelec speakers are certainly interesting. I assume the curved edges are to try and scatter internal reflections to improve imaging? The curvature in the faces may help to scatter vibrations emitting out into the room too? Drivers appear to be conventional types. |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2016 at 4:22pm
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eO8zcbfZDwk%20" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eO8zcbfZDwk
Tim, watch this video about the Genelec 8000 series of studio monitors.
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Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2016 at 4:37pm
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I've never considered aluminium or another metal as an enclosure material for speakers. From the appearance of the Genelecs, I'd always assumed the enclosure material was a high impact plastic like ABS. I was wrong. The guy in the previous video suggests aluminium was selected for its ability to be bent/curved to remove sharp internal edges and so that the enclosure material is pretty thin to increase the effective internal air volume inside the cabinet to allow lower bass extension. I personally agree that increased internal volume and slimmer enclosure material are good ideas. Not so sure about the rear-facing port being a good idea but I'm no engineer or expert in audio so what do I know; there may be reasoning in its favour. The tweeter appears to be a one-size aluminium dome and woofer is sized depending on which monitor model you get, as you know. The video has made reference to a very old study and paper that was written on the subject of cabinet shapes and diffraction patterns and how a sphere was the shape that gave the flattest frequency response. I'm going to go and find the paper and have a read.
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Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 04 Nov 2016 at 5:05pm
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http://www.dwdrums.com/images/moonmic/olson_direct-radiator-loudspeaker-enclosures.pdf%20" rel="nofollow - http://www.dwdrums.com/images/moonmic/olson_direct-radiator-loudspeaker-enclosures.pdf
Harry F. Olsen research paper from 1950
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Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2016 at 7:35am
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Ash, you da man! I've always admired your dedication to educating yourself and therefore understanding this hobby to the nth degree. I'll have a look at the video and research paper later but as for the MDE enclosures, their sales blurb (which for once actually attempts to prove it's claims scientifically) explains the design better than I could: http://www.genelec.com/key-technologies/minimum-diffraction-enclosure-mde-technology" rel="nofollow - http://www.genelec.com/key-technologies/minimum-diffraction-enclosure-mde-technology I had an aluminium sub for a few years (B&W PV1) and it does seem to propel itself above the competition of the same level so there must be some solid reasoning behind it. I agree with your concerns about the rear firing port and while they can be adjusted to battle room interaction, the shop I demo'd them in had them close to the wall and it appeared to make no difference. Just to clarify my comment on your singleness/freeness to spend, I wish I had sorted out my hifi needs while I still was too! My salary would be amazing if I was single but now I'm married and we have decided for my wife to stay at home with our son, each month is a struggle, hence I'm never on here and always working! Haha. Richard60 - I haven't heard the Yamaha MS series but I have heard the HS; not impressed by those but my last demo session re-confirmed something to me that I was hoping to navigate around. 5" and smaller drivers sound too muddy and claustrophobic to my ears. The ability of bigger drivers to produce a cleaner sound is less frustrating; I don't think I could live with anything in those categories as, even in the same range, the bigger sizes sound spot on. DaveG - I have a site in Chessington that I need to pop to regularly so I know where I'm spending my lunch break! All - I don't have time to say too much at the moment (in a rush to go out) but I had an interesting demo session with the Genelec 8010, 8020, 8030 and 8040 at Andertons during the week... The 8040s absolutely blew me away! More on that later. miT
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Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2016 at 1:59pm
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Hi, I tend to agree on drivers though bit 'mummy bear' from my observations over the last 35 years too small tend to sound a bit small restricted or lacking power scale and extension whereas too big can sound lacking tightness and control. Thinking some newer PMC in the small driver category (no offence to the PMC owners here!) and larger old JBL, AR and KEF here. Like most things about design though and a poorly designed anything in a big box can sound cr*p! It was my understanding that one of functions of a port was to backload the driver(s) as well as bolster output? Again a function of good design and feature of Ines that are not. I will have to have a listen to the relations Yamahas but given they impress my nephews father who have some excellent full range speakers would be surprised if they weren't pretty good for size/use. Agree with domestics needs lots of money, no or very understanding partner!!! No kids help also! |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2016 at 2:05pm
| ... but by careful and proper design most things can be achieved and overcome. The issues as raised earlier by Ash they often are not . |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2016 at 7:27pm
| I don't like the sound of speaker drivers that are too small either, whether coupled to a box enclosure or not. I sold my previous 4.5 inch Mark Audio Alpair 7P because they sounded diminutive and lacking body at a distance compared to the 6.5 inch Alpair 12 models. Radiating area is too small. |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2016 at 6:00am
Richard60 - Sadly I don't remember much before 1985 (mainly due to not being born yet  ) so I guess I'm where most of you were years ago, but with the benefit of already discovering Graham and having such a wealth of knowledge from all of you wonderful chaps.The driver size conundrum... I originally thought that I could find a small set of speakers and be happy; not a chance! Thinking back to all the speakers I have ever heard in the past, everything with a 5" or smaller driver has always sounded unrealistically bloated and muffled to me, like the mids have been amplified too much in this range or all the music is coming from behind a sheet.
Getting to listen to the Genelec 8010 - 8040 side-by-side proved this to be a driver size issue. The 3" 8010s sounded good but very lean, the 4" 8020s sounded too warm in the mids, the 8030s were better but sounded like they were performing with certain constraints as they were still marginally mid-heavy. The 8040s however completely blew me away. I don't remember hearing speakers like it before but they were so transparent, the music didn't sound like it was coming from speakers anymore; they just disappeared from the equasion. That's not to say other speakers with big drivers couldn't do the same hence I want to go demo others, but the enclosures have been thought out and carefully designed on the Genelecs to overcome rather substantial flaws. Of the others with big drivers I have listened to (Adam A7X, etc), I haven't (yet) come across anything as impressive. I try to aim for what I perceive a natural sound should be which I guess is subjective (as speaker and headphone choice is) but I like to think my ears must be reasonably well tuned as I can always tell when better is achievable, even if I haven't physically heard it yet. My testing tracks are from all over my varied collection and I know them quite well. One in particular is a Yo Yo Ma solo playing Bach's Suite no. 1 in G Major (Allemande). To me the cello has a mid-heavy, boomy timbre which is easy to overcook and sound bloated. Reproduced "correctly" though the "booming" is actually quite precise as it is the air inside the body amplifying the sound (that probably makes more sense to me due to playing electric and acoustic guitar during my youth). Only the 8040s, which have 6.5" drivers, sounded "live". Every other song I tried: Clapton, Skynyrd, Muse, Hans Zimmer, Timbaland, Jimmy Smith... Everything just sounded right to my ears, natural. Rather than be labelled a Genelec fanboy though, I am going to book myself in to hear equivalents (Focal CM65s, etc) at other shops. And I have to find somewhere that does those Yamahas! Haha. My wife is way too good to me. I was talking to her about the Genelecs and even though the 8040s are £760 each (  ), she has given me the go ahead (after she regained consciousnes ). A Proprius-based system falls into the same pricing though so that is a new dilema...Ash - It says a lot that you feel the same about the driver size! Have you tried the Alpairs mounted in anything solid? With the price now being so close, I need to find a way to demo them!! |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2016 at 8:20am
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No, only tried the Alpairs on cardboard so far. Very promising sound indeed. Still not sure what I'm going to do about enclosure/baffle material yet, as sharp baffle edges, reflective faces and high baffle mass are not going to help the sonics in a small listening room. So SWMBO has permitted a £1500 spend on a pair of Genelec monitors. Hmmm... Maybe a Proprius "starter pack" is a possibility then.  It won't give you the all-in-one solution of the Genelecs but it does remove layers of complexity and allow more experimentation, which for speaker audio is certainly a good thing. The choice of Genelec model will only sound as good as your listening room will allow IMO. Big woofer in big enclosure with rear port and limited positioning in small, untreated room..... Hmmmm. My Equator D5s were good but too much for my tiny room; their woofer/enclosure size is smaller than the Genelec model you're considering.I'm grinning at the thought of you using the Proprius with a pair of the Alpair 10P instead... You could just start with a simple timber box and work your way from there. |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2016 at 8:23am
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8RXmC0Bi1g%20" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8RXmC0Bi1g
Currently about £200 per pair due to increased shipping costs and change in exchange rate.
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Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2016 at 10:40am
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Just found a series of recent videos of Mark Fenlon, a speaker driver specialist, talking about speaker driver design. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30H7t6ENTtI" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30H7t6ENTtI |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 07 Nov 2016 at 8:13pm
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Tim, these are superb speaker drivers for £160. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/8-Speaker-driver-pair-Mark-Audio-ALPAIR-12P-/201710864297" rel="nofollow - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/8-Speaker-driver-pair-Mark-Audio-ALPAIR-12P-/201710864297
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Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 7:37am
I can tell you're happy with your Mark Audio's Ash.  I admit when I heard the price of the Genelec 8040s, I immediately thought about a Proprius-based system. The thing is there isn't a way to demo the Mark Audio drivers and that doesn't instill me with enough confidence to commit myself to a potentially expensive and non-interchangeable mistake (i.e. Demo'd system vs unknown). Worse yet I'd have to find the time to learn about, design and build a suitable enclosure before I can even judge them properly.Please don't misconstu my thoughts though; I have no doubts about any of Graham's electronics and after going DIY with my subs, I highly recommend it due to the unbelievable cost-savings. But I'm struggling to justify DIY for such a small room as the biggest problem isn't the money, it's finding time that I don't have to do the enclosures (even if I just take a gamble on the Alpair 12s). With what I have learned about the issue with diffractions, etc, I'd have to somehow design enclosures to get around this; R&D nightmare already. If they were to be made out wood then I could go via Gordy on eBay who can build them for me but as wood isn't necessarily the best material due to adding to the problems, I have to look elsewhere. I really wish this was just an audio problem as it would be a no-brainer as I'm quite confident Genelec don't spend £200 on their drivers...
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Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 2:06pm
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My MA drivers offer enormous value for money compared to how much I had to pay out for a K1000, yeah. The 12P, 12PW, 10P and 7P are all intended to give a cool, neutral timbre. I sold the 7P as they were too small for my liking (but sounded very good nonetheless). I would like to try the 10P soon too. As soon as my spare K1000 sells, I'll fund a second pair of Proprius and a pair of 10P, as another point of reference. I can understand why you would opt for the Genelecs though; everything has been done for you; you just plug them in and off you go. You have to do what you feel is most sensible for your needs. At least the Genelecs have protective grilles over the drivers too.
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Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 7:35pm
I just had a very interesting conversation about them, but more on that in a minute... I'm glad you brought that up because I keep forgetting to ask you: how do the Alpairs compare to your K1000s? And if you could only keep one system, which would you keep and why? Plug and play certainly has benefits, but they should never be at the detriment of audio quality. I demo'd the Focal CMS range today at Guitar Guitar in Epsom... They were good but not for me. They did however give further weight to the driver size argument. Exemplified perfectly with a solo piano piece by Ludovico Einaudi (Nuvolo Bianche for anyone who is interested), the 5" sounded like a very good speaker but the 6.5" sounded like putting your head in the piano while it is being played. As much as I keep swapping between them, the difference is dramatic. On to my conversation about raw drivers. I spoke to Steve of Electric Beach Audio as he is down on Mark Audio's website as a UK contact. Very educational about the different drivers and enclosure types. It turns out open baffles need lots of room behind them to work properly due to balancing the air on both sides of the driver. He said that the Alpair 12s don't work in nearfield due to this and suggested a few other options instead so I'm going to demo some tomorrow. He highly praised the Proprius/Mark Audio pairing as he made some speakers for someone else on here... His pricing for built speakers is really good too so Proprius amps are now becoming a realistic option.
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Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 9:46pm
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A 12PW and 7P pairing on just cardboard open baffles produced very similar sound in my small room to my K1000. Both have their strengths but there is no denying that the speaker rendition is even more spatial. I don't have golden ears; all I crave from any transducer is a musical transparent sound with a cool neutral timbre that is true to the recording. The MA paper drivers I've mentioned do this for me even without any kind of enclosure or baffle. Obviously they don't have the frequency balance (lack of bass weight) in free air but I can still enjoy their sound. If I could only keep one system?? Well, in that case, I would choose the K1000 I think, because it is my reference device and I could still use it at night when others are asleep. I can also lie down wearing my K1000 if I wear a "beanie" hat (I removed the worn temple pads so the device clamps the hat) so it suits me well. But the Alpair 12 drivers can and will beat the K1000 when set up well. Smaller drivers typically don't move enough air to provide good dynamics and impact. The 7P was really good with the 12PW but I didn't like the 7P on its own; the radiating surface is too small for it to be a superb primary emitter IMO. The 12P sounds great on open baffle at low to medium volume in my small room. But with a driver as great as this, I'm not fussy about a "perfect sound". I can enjoy it without forcing myself too. Both my Alpair 12 drivers are also 6.5 inch too I believe so this must be a great choice of driver size if we both find we enjoy it. The Alpair 10 is smaller though (5 inch driver?) but looks promising and I reckon we'd both love it. At this level of transducer Tim, there is no such thing as "doesn't work in X configuration" IMO. It either works or it works better. Not being able to enjoy a driver like this is madness. I think you'll probably find the other guy on here is BackInBlack. It was his mention of MA drivers that caused me to research and buy some. Something to do with a Frugal Horn?? No idea but getting my mitts on the drivers alone was my priority. You probably know more about speaker setup than I do Tim. I am not an expert by any means whatsoever. Although I do think a Proprius/MA pairing would decimate the Genelecs in acoustic purity and resolving ability.
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Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2016 at 11:26pm
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Interesting... Do you think the sound of a pair work better? It sounds like we're both after the same sound Ash. Have you tried any of the metal coned MAs? Apparently they are Mark's main focus. Ah, well that makes a lot of sense. No point in having a decent system and not be able to use it at night! I wasn't expecting it from 6.5" drivers but I felt the Genelecs had enough low frequency production to not need a sub. Considering every systen I've ever had included a sub, that is an achievement. Steve suggested that the 10 would actually be a better choice though. Hopefully I'll get to hear it tomorrow so I'll let you know. Hard to say Ash as I would have thought that if a driver is not used as it was intended and therefore is unable to produce the sound as it was designed, then what you're left listening to could potentially be as bad as a cheap driver from elsewhere. I have no idea though. Yup, the Frugal 3. Also on my demo list tomorrow. I doubt that Ash; this will be my first proper stero system! I look forward to comparing them though.
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Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2016 at 9:58am
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Unfortunately, Oak Audio was superseded by kjfaudio so the webpages I originally viewed when deciding between the various MA drivers have now vanished. The current webpages don't have as much information on them regarding the driver characteristics but I do remember that a few of the metal cone MA drivers were described as having a warm timbre and a slight shift in frequency balance (bass enhancement or treble enhancement); not a "cool, neutral timbre" like the aforementioned paper cone MA drivers or a "flat frequency response" like the 7P. This caused me to choose in favour of the paper cone drivers; I don't think I'd like the metal cone variants as much, to be honest. Although, Mark Fenlon has the newer "Pluvia" 11 and 7 drivers now, which also look to be metal cone and may be different in sonic characteristics. Mark has certainly spent more time designing around metal cone diaphragms, yes. I could use my speakers at night if the volume were set really really quiet. But it would be easier to just put a beanie hat and K1000 on. With regard to the 12P and the other P drivers, I'm sure I read that they were all well balanced in aspects such as Q and Xmax etc so their applications are quite versatile. You'd have to do something really wrong for these drivers to sound bad. I also reckon the 10P could be great too. I need to get my hands on a pair. The metal version appears to have a "sound signature" so sticking to the paper cone version. P.S can't remember whether it was the 12P (I think it was) but one of the paper driver pages said "can be used on baffles with suitable quality bass support"
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Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2016 at 5:40am
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Oddly Steve pretty much said the opposite of everything you just said Ash, and that Mark's design goals are with metal cones; apparently the paper ones were made because people were more used to the sound signature but they have boosted frequencies... I have no idea as I only got to hear the Alpair 7 in his Frugal Horn 3 (the 10s supposedly add LF extension but at the loss of absolute HF detail). I'd be interested to hear what you thought of the 7s Ash. In the Frugal Horn 3 they were so neutral and transparent that they disappeared, and the HF were in no way fatiguing. They were good nearfield too, and I was pleasantly surprised by the LF depth and detail the 4" drivers put out. However! While I found them outstanding with acoustic, classical and jazz songs, I was underwhelmed with some songs from other genres that I put through them. Maybe I need to learn to listen to them or me expectations of "live" are out of tune but from memory they sounded like an airy AKG K701 (a good thing) except that I had no problems listening to anything on those headphones (possibly just adapted to the sound?). Again for the genres they do well they are stunning, and even the depth of the cello from a Yo-Yo Ma solo sounded so real it was as if the speakers were just a picture hiding the real instrument. Why a couple curve-balls I threw were disappointing though I don't know. I tried my normal songs and Jimmy Smith's organ possibly lacked a tiny bit of body (hard to describe but so minimal) whereas others like above seemed pretty much spot on. They can be tuned slightly and with my tiny room they may not share this same problem, but why then did Phil Colins - All of my Life sound so underwhelming? Steve did admit that the Proprius amps did a much better job with all the frequencies but even talking about the demo on the way home with my wife, she said that I didn't seem as thrilled or excited as I did with the Genelecs (although there were probably a few contributing factors like tiredness, a rough day, etc). When you hear what you've been missing though you can't go back so would the Genelecs now sound the same to me? If the issue was due to the LF extension, adding a sub (which I'm not interested in doing this time) would help. Alternatively making some speakers with the Alpair 7s and 10s for weight would likely solve this issue (again if it was due to that) but the Frugal Horn 3s alone push the price into the uncomfortable zone for such a small room (£1300 amps + £700 speakers + GS cables). I need to think more about this.
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Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2016 at 7:42am
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Frugal horn 3 kits, excluding drivers, are £175 from custom cans. ------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2016 at 8:27am
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The Frugel FHXL with MA 10.3 drivers is a better all round speaker I think. Whilst retaining the neutrality of the FH3 it has better bass and a bit more slam. However, even the MA 10.3 driver cones in a back loaded horn will struggle to produce deep bass at higher volumes without sounding forced, although I'm quite happywith the bass from mine in my 20' x 13' lounge at moderate listening levels. There are many enclosure designs for the MA drivers, the Pensil floorstander or even simple bass reflex bookshelf may be more suitable for smaller rooms. They both have the advantage of being easy to construct and can be tuned to suit your own taste and room. See: http://frugal-phile.com/boxes-markaudio.html" rel="nofollow - http://frugal-phile.com/boxes-markaudio.html ------------- Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it. |
Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2016 at 9:14am
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I certainly would consider the FH3 in a cupboard, which is, I think, what Tim said his office approximates to. They take up quite a bit of floor space. ------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2016 at 10:04am
Mark Fenlon's background is aerospace. He decided to use his expertise in high performance, low mass aerospace materials in order to design a full-range speaker that could genuinely cover all the audible frequencies. The metal diaphragms on at least drivers like the 10M and 7M are of the same high grade that is found on commercial aircraft and space aircraft. The thickness is in the order of micrometres so the moving mass is very low, permitting high powertrain efficiency. Metal cones are his main choice but sound characteristically different from paper cones. However, the differences are not easy to measure as they are typically quite subtle changes objectively. I'm not sure why exactly he opted for reinforced paper cones in these P products but I'm sure it wasn't due to wanting to add sonic signature. There is no way the microdynamic resolution of the 12P would be as superb as it is if this material choice naturally made the frequency response less even.
7M or 7P? Yes, the 10 drivers would move more air than the 7, allowing further LF extension but not so sure about loss of absolute HF detail with the 10s. Maybe the upper treble would have a narrower dispersion field due to the larger diaphragm (due to reduced resonance due to increased substrate dimensions?)
7P was very good. Neutral character, clear, non-fatiguing and well extended treble but you could hear it was a small driver; it just didn't move much air. Wide dispersion of sound. Probably had the widest treble dispersion but can't remember.
Anything with large dynamic/volume changes won't be represented well by a small emitting surface IMO, not at higher volumes anyway. Doesn't matter how big the enclosure is...
Well the dynamics of the K701 would probably be better than the 7P, due to proximity of driver to the ear (less required diaphragm movement) VS the driver size. Not sure, just a suggestion.
So you didn't hear them with Proprius amps then? You're not going to be overwhelmed if they don't thrash the Genelecs in every area, no. The increased cost of this system choice is at the back of your mind probably too.
It's all relative perception but I'd never go back to an active speaker either. I hated speaker playback for a long time because I didn't realise just how good they can sound when simplified and you use top quality components. The extraordinary transparency and effortless spatial projection will be lost if you don't go with well-engineered separates IMO.
I still don't believe the 10 would gain anything worthwhile from the 7. If the drivers are "fully burnt in", the 10 should go more than high enough. The only advantage of the 7 is possibly a wider off-axis treble dispersion but these cone designs are shallow anyway so the dispersion characteristic of the sound is already wide.
You don't need to worry about buying everything at once IMO. Prioritise the Proprius and the speakers. Mediocre cheaper (but ok) cables should be fine to get you started, I reckon, as long as they're of oxygen-free copper construction. |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2016 at 2:46pm
Now that is a deal! If I had the time to do that, mine would be the ugliest speakers around.
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Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2016 at 3:19pm
Excepting the ones I built with my son! It's not time consuming. ------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2016 at 3:55pm
Thanks for the website mate. The idea of the 10 sounds more to my liking but bearing in mind room size...? Do they have the sme top end as the 7? I don't want to sacrifice that as it was amazing.
Yes, my office is around 1.8m x 1.8m and at least for now, the system will be in here so I need to find speakers that could cope with the room restrictions. I guess I could put up with the missing LF weight but that is part of my problem; I don't want to "put up with" anything when I'm already spending more than I was planning.
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Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2016 at 4:12pm
| For a single driver solution, I personally reckon the performance jump from an MA 7 to an MA 10 would be bigger than an MA 10 to MA 12 jump. Just a little longer and I will get a 10P to find out. |
Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2016 at 7:58pm
I think you're having to put up with 1.8m x 1.8m, so you need to work with that and an FH3 or any implementation of an MA10 are, I would have thought, completely inappropriate. Having said that I don't have an answer for you. ------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2016 at 8:32pm
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Congratulations Tim, your room may actually be smaller than mine. and I wouldn't stick a big pair of box speakers in my room; they'd sound awful. Even small enclosure speakers is pushing my luck. I'd probably try something like a pair of Alpair 10P flush mounted in fairly small slim 3mm plywood boxes with small circular holes drilled all across side and rear box faces to produce a partial, thin-walled enclosure. I'd also find means of covering over sharp box edges to lessen diffraction anomalies and also to acoustically isolate the boxes somehow. But that's just me.
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Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2016 at 9:21pm
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I was mindful that you had a small room when suggesting the Pensils or Bass Reflex enclosures for an MA 10.3. However at 1.8m2 , a near field monitor would be best to avoid bass boom. Not sure the Genelecs would avoid this. Where are the speakers to stand, floor, wall mounted, shelf, desk or stands? The MA 10s or 7s would probably suit if in the BR or mini-Onken enclosures. These could be tuned to reduce bass to avoid boom. I do believe that the MA drivers need some acoustic loading to achieve an even response. ------------- Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it. |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2016 at 10:27pm
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Using an Alpair 10 as a nearfield monitor is probably the best solution to avoid annoying bass interactions and boom. I'd put them in fairly small smart cardboard boxes on a desk (larger emitting surface than the 7 and cardboard has good damping properties). You can probably even buy veneered cardboard for better appearance. You can structurally support the cardboard with some small pieces of timber. It would sound stunning from the Proprius, I bet. Superior to the Genelecs, where you'd be stuck with a rear firing port and inferior amplification. Not too pushy, am I? |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2016 at 1:43am
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If I can chip in, the mechanical Q (Qms) tends to suggest the kind of bass performance you'll get, and the Alpair 10M has the lowest of those discussed so far at 1.93 suggesting the best bass performance. In my experience bass reflexes only really work with Qms of below 0.5, this being that the resonance is more controlled, and you only get a low Qms from a big heavy magnet. From what I see all the Alpair units have small magnets - hence the high Qms. A bass reflex cabinet (of which I see there are quite a few designs offered up) will lead to a boomy bass IMO. Again in my opinion, the 10M should work best in a sealed box, but made of some rigid material. The Vas is quoted as 26.32 litres which gives a cube of 297.46 mm (internal) - basically a cubic foot box. As the "golden ratio" is supposedly good for sound, a box internally dimensioned 300mm x 480mm x 185mm will give roughly the right volume allowing for the back of the unit. ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2016 at 3:08am
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Got the box volume wrong! (this is why I don't make speakers...) Using online box size calculators I'm "told" the box volume would be 6.5 litres, and the magnet weight seems of no consequence (anymore??...). So size should be 301 high, 186 wide, 114 deep (internal) if going golden ratio (1.618:1). Where can I get 10M greys from? And how much? ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2016 at 8:03am
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UK distributor is KJF: http://kjfaudio.co.uk/product-category/drivers/markaudio-drivers/" rel="nofollow - http://kjfaudio.co.uk/product-category/drivers/markaudio-drivers/ Some stablished designs for enclosures can be found here: http://frugal-phile.com/boxes-markaudio.html" rel="nofollow - http://frugal-phile.com/boxes-markaudio.html I suggested the smaller enclosures as by adding more acoustic wadding (lambswool or BAF) or plugging the BR ports the bass response can easily be tailored to suit individual requirements. Ian ------------- Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it. |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 12 Nov 2016 at 10:19am
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10M grey and gold are both £154 on the kjfaudio website. I'm not actually sure what the particular differences are between them apart from the metal cone colour. They have some different measurements too. Compared to the paper cone, the metal cone drivers appear to be more elevated and peaky in the treble region. Sadly the 10P is £200 now, as the paper cone drivers appear to be more expensive to manufacture. Looking at the PDF datasheets, the paper cone Alpair 10 has both a lower mass diaphragm and a shallower cone profile than the metal 10s. The frequency response of the 10P is more even too.
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Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2016 at 7:43am
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Thanks Ash. I'm only thinking about it right now, but I would like to have another pair of decent nearfield speakers for comparison in my listening tests. As for BR's (...and horn loaded), I have never heard any yet which I could get along with - perhaps with the exception of the Tangent RS4 (from a bygone era). My worry is that I'm going to end up with an audiophile sound instead of the natural sound I get from the LS35A (...Stirling V2). Then again, perhaps I need something audiophile sounding to know how my equipment is sounding to others ...? ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2016 at 9:39am
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Thanks for all the replies everyone. I've been quietly meditating on the experience of the Alpair 7M/Frugel Horns and how they interact with the room to bring impressive scale to the presentation on top of that amazing top end. Coupled with the recurring comments on here I've come to the decision that, at least in this guise, they aren't going to work in my office. I have been mulling over my options to see what I can achieve and may have come up with a few ideas. We may need to move by next May which will probably leave me without an office but a new work opportunity has arisen which should bypass the need for one anyway. This leaves me with a few options that revolve around either moving a system (cinema or music) to the living room (currently out-of-bounds due to aggressive mould that is eating our new furniture, hence the possible move if the landlord doesn't resolve it soon) and hope they are Benji-proof, adding these to my cinema room, or replacing my cinema speakers altogether with these. At least in the latter two options, I could find a way to link them to my subs... Graham's idea has also piqued my attention as they sound simpler. Would a sealed design have the same scale as the horns though?
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Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2016 at 11:36am
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The closed box will generally have better transients and a more gradual bass drop-off than a similar bass reflex or ported design where the low frequency output is extended by tuning the box/port. With the same driver in a horn-loaded or transmission line cabinet you'll get a lot more low bass than from a closed box, in a large room. In a small room a closed box works well. As you are probably moving my suggestion may be irrelevant but here goes. Buy the 7M speakers and put them into temporary boxes or Ash's panels for use now in the small room and then move them into Frugel Horns later to go into the larger listening room. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2016 at 12:02pm
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Tim, in a small room, I'd also use a small, thin-walled, sealed cabinet (no porting). By going down the separates route, YOU have control over what enclosure you couple to your driver/s and their resulting sound. You are able to adapt your system to what's best for the listening room without having to buy new amplifiers or drivers. Graham, I personally believe that the metal cone MA drivers are not entirely unsignatured. Observation of the frequency SPL graphs suggest upper bass boost and treble boost, more so than the paper 10 anyway. The metal cones would have a slightly warmer tone, I reckon, and they would be perceived as being more detailed than the paper due to increased treble focus. That doesn't mean they're better or more resolving overall though. As far as I'm aware, the paper drivers are the ones intended to provide a cool, neutral sound. A 12P in a suitable enclosure would absolutely thrash your LS3/5A V2 in my opinion, as would the 10P. The improvements in microdynamics and resolving ability of such a sensitive large driver (12P) would be significant. Apparently in a suitable enclosure, they are capable of very respectable bass performance as well and your LS3/5A V2 aren't exactly bass monsters. K1000 completely floors the HD250/HD540 in sound and the Alpair 12 drivers demonstrate ability to expand upon what the K1000 achieves and improve upon it, without compromise. As you've said in the past, there are basically two types of sound. What people THINK is correct and what actually IS correct.
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Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2016 at 12:14pm
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Thanks for the explanation Jon. I've only had to look into enclosures for subs before so this is different. I've been talking about them more with my wife today and pending another another demo, may be able to accommodate the bigger speakers now. After saving more anyway. I have to check how they would sound in a surround sound configuration and deal with poor quality source material (i.e. DVDs of 70s TV shows, etc) but if they work better, I could always sell my 7 channel cinema system and replace with an MA based 5 channel system utilising my existing subs and AVR... I'd have to work out how to switch the L&R channels to Proprius amps and a different source though. I have no idea if the Alpair 10s would be better suited to this dual duty (LCR have to be the same but the rears could be different), although I don't want to sacrifice those HF and I'd crossover somewhere between 80 and 120Hz... I now have a big job on my hands to turn the cinema room 90degrees!
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Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2016 at 12:15pm
That's a bit strong Ash. LS3/5A are very well regarded and I've heard them sound great in small and large rooms. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2016 at 12:15pm
| Btw the cinema room is 2.54m x 4.07m (WxL). |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2016 at 12:23pm
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Good proportions i.e. not square but the ceiling height is probably close to 2.5m width? ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2016 at 12:27pm
Yep, I'm ruthlessly honest. Not intending to offend, just not sugar-coating my experience with them. And yes, I know the rooms were sub-optimal when I've listened to them but even turning the volume down and listening at a closer position didn't remove the sound signature. I can't even imagine how much a pair of optimized Quad ESL 57 panels would whoop them. |
Posted By: Chris Firth
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2016 at 1:08pm
What can I say about Quad ESLs? They roll off early, and actually aren't all that accurate. They sound pipe and slippers cuddly, and they benefit hugely from having a well integrated supertweeter. The main issue is that unlike dynamic drivers, which require proper current to get a bass response, the ESLs require proper current to produce high frequencies, which is why they roll off fairly rapidly from around 11KHZ. The addition of a supertweeter improves the attack on drums and basses too, which in turn gives a greater impression of low end presence. |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2016 at 3:36pm
| Whilst I have not listened to any Els57 for 30 years they have merits but do have restricted bandwidth and in my experience are music dependant and placement critical. I would not think they would suit a small room,up against a wall with very close listening and possibly not the music you listen to. |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2016 at 4:40pm
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@Ash your LS3/5A clones probably weren't a fair representation of what the real speakers can do. That said I agree they aren't bass monsters but they were designed for monitoring in small spaces TBF. @Chris and Richard: I agree about the ESL57 benefitting from super tweeters and the reason why. The ones I heard were nice to listen to, great soundstage and natural sound in a good room, I think "Pipe and slippers cuddly" is a good description. They don't go very loud. @miT: I think you'll be pleased with running one really good system. I'm not the only one here who feeds their AV amp's left and right preamp out signal into marvellous GSP gear and my hi-fi speakers. It works well for me with MA GX300 left right and GX150 centre speakers (and the wides as I kept my GX100's when the GX300's arrived with an end of line discount), so I'd endorse your LCR approach if it's any help. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2016 at 10:30pm
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Yes, the ceiling height is 2.3m. Wow Jon, your system is fantastic! Mine pales into insignificance compared to that! Do you use a sub with your Monitor Audios? What AVR do you use? I use an Onkyo TX-NR929 but I'm not sure if it's going to be up to the task... When I started on my AV journey, the general consensus was hifi speakers can't do AV and vice versa. I still agree but I don't think the Mark Audio drivers fall into either category which is the mark of a truly great speaker IMO. I wish I had discovered them much sooner! So as my original idea has now changed to a cinema system or at least LCR (not sure if it's worth replacing my MK tripole rears?) and work with my existing subs, would I be better off with horn speakers or sealed boxes?
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Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2016 at 11:13pm
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That should be fine, I found my plasterboard and artex ceiling soaks up some of the bass, so the mode associated with 2.5m is relatively small. Alas my room is almost square 4m x 4m so I've used a combination of bass traps and speaker positioning to tame the bottom end, and leave the doors ajar or open. It helped when I started thinking about the room being a chamber the speakers feed into and the benefit of leakage... See room gain or cabin gain for more on this. Thank you it has taken me five years from hearing the GX50's ribbon tweeter and some haggling and trading in to get the five speakers. The AVR is an Onkyo 709 which has stayed a favourite for me. I have a couple of old REL subs I use with the home cinema but haven't connected to the GX300's for stereo use yet. IMO if the speakers are good they'll do hifi and AV/HC, and having multiple front speakers would fill the room very quickly. I'd keep the rears you have got, I assume a tripole is wide dispersion which is what you need for TV and movies IMO. Much as it pains me to say this you can have too much bass in a small room! Well designed horns and TLS are a delight in big rooms and may work in your room but positioning is crucial. Closed boxes will give you a clean dynamic sound and quite a lot of bass, easily boosted by moving them nearer the wall. For tight response and gradual rolloff, I've built speakers for a Qtc of 0.7 to 1.0 (gives smaller box with slight bass peak which sounds good). There's a lot of info on the web but the basic formula is Vb = Vas/(Qtc2/Qts2 -1). They are easier to build and if braced and lined (felt and acoustic fibre) should limit any boxiness.Just seen the time, must go! ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2016 at 12:32am
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Curiosity got the better of me and I looked at the Markaudio Alpair speaker specs. Using EBP = Fs/Qes both the 7 and 10 come out at over 100 so are better suited to a reflex or horn than closed box. Another advantage of reflex cabs is less cone excursion above Fb, definitely a good thing with a 4 inch speaker with Xmax =4 mm. For the Alpair 7's Fs=73Hz and Qts=0.5, Vas=5.6l, I'd guess box ratio 1.3 so 7-8 litres and tuning ratio around 0.8 so Fb about 60Hz. Looks nice easy box to build with plenty of plans out there. The Frugal Horns look good and kits are available - quick reflex cab now, horn later? ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2016 at 12:26pm
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Thanks for the replies Jon but I hope you still got some sleep?? My cinema room is simply for that so bass traps and acoustic treatment are fine. My Antimode 8033 Cinema does an amazing job with the subs as well. Do you use Audyssey in yours? Well if you're happy with your Onkyo, maybe I should give mine more of a chance with the new speakers. I agree, although my MKs will take a lot to beat at reference level! I never listened to films at crazy levels though so as long as the new ones go loud enough... That's a lie and you know it! Control is the most important part in music; not so much with films. Thanks mate, horns seem to be the way forward.
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Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2016 at 12:34pm
Well I couldn't help myself and decided to get in touch with Mark Fenlon as the confusion over the cone material was getting to me. His replies:
Good to get your message. forgive shorts, replies as I’m having to deal with a recent second cancer diagnosis, alas its holding me back from applying more of my time. I put most effort into creating a “neutral” character into the metal cone drivers, particularly the Alpair 7M and the Alpair 10M. Cheers Mark." I guess you are I will be after the metal cones Graham... P.S. Apologies for the odd special characters. I'm not sure if it's my BlackBerry or not as they appear fine when editing the text. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2016 at 12:55pm
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The odd special characters are something to do with it being a secure website, and it changes what it thinks could be from a dodgy source, to such characters. Typing in direct from a desktop or laptop usually works, as does copying and pasting from "notepad" (with word wrap turned off). @Ash; 40 years ago I was very much like you (except for the money ), and I had a couple of Fane pop 25's (12") mounted in the cardboard boxes they came in, with the flaps folded inwards - sort of rammed in. I was in the process of making cabinets for them but wanted to listen to my music...What I noticed was how clear some tracks were: Rudy from Supertramp's CotC in particular; the train sound recording was so real, as the carriages moved across the soundstage - yes, such a Heath Robinson set up sound staged! But it was very bass light. I have never heard that as clear since - not with anything. ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2016 at 1:20pm
I am saddened to hear about Mark Fenlon's decline in health; I had realised that he had been ill but didn't know just how serious it was. Wishing him a swift, thorough and long-lasting recovery.  Thanks for that Tim, did you just email him through the official website? The conclusions I had made about most of his metal drivers were due to notes I'd read on the previous Oak-Audio website. I was given the impression that the paper drivers were intended for monitoring/neutrality whilst the metal cones had been intended to give a fairly neutral but more "impressive" sound. I am under the impression that the paper cones, whilst not as durable as the metal cones, could be made with shallower cone profiles (improved dispersion) and are of lower mass for the same size. The datasheets from MA have also given me this impression. Graham, yes, the 12P has a "well-damped bass" so ideally needs bass support from a suitable woofer. But because a second driver would only be assisting the primary driver in the bass region (so fairly omnidirectional dispersion), they should integrate well. We've both heard the advantages a larger driver can provide. Take HD250II vs HD800 for example. The HD800's driver is much bigger and it really makes a big difference to soundscale, not just soundstage. By scale, I mean everything sounds bigger and more resolved in both macrodynamics and microdynamics. Turn the volume right down and the larger driver still sounds very clear whereas the smaller driver is no longer moving enough air to convey the quietest of details.
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Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2016 at 3:03pm
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Graham - Too technical for me. I want to hear your opinion of these speakers... Even Steve of Electric Beach Audio says they sound like liquid with your Proprius amps! Ash - I'd love to say I had a direct line but no, it was initially via his website. I'd be lying if I said your previous comments didn't add to my need to find out, especially as one of his dealers(?) said the opposite. Mixed with concern about my own findings too!
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Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2016 at 3:08pm
| So Tim, it would seem some of the things I've said about MA drivers are actually incorrect. Not sure what I've got right and what I've got wrong. Whatever MA drivers you select, they're all well made and you can't really go wrong. Buying and selling such things is so easy with the internet at your fingertips. |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2016 at 3:18pm
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Ash, it's a downward spiral from here. Next you'll say you were wrong about Graham's speakers too! Haha. Have you ever tried to see how loud they go? I'm intrigued to see how well they will cope with films (when <110Hz is sent to the subs)... Btw, what music/sounds did you use during burn-in?
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Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2016 at 3:53pm
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None of my drivers are fully "burnt in" yet, not even close, but what I have heard from them is very good indeed. Haven't used them in recent weeks as have been doing other things but will go back to them soon. Due to insufficient hours on the drivers, I have not played them too loud but I know the Proprius can more than make them fill my small room (they're designed for much bigger spaces). I've never been someone for loud music anyway; the higher the volume goes, the less sound purity achieved. Not just due to increased room interaction but because of increased cone excursion distance. More available excursion is one advantage multi-way drivers have over full-range. I don't need lots of power but there are speaker applications that do.
P.S In defence of the LS3/5A V2, they do some things well but overall aren't for me. Graham used them to help him develop the Proprius so they must be good enough for a pro to make critical decisions with. I just think that 10P and 12P would potentially be much more resolving emitters of sound. Great lengths have been taken with MA drivers to reduce powertrain mass and increase sensitivity and dispersion.
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Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2016 at 9:52pm
1) well I slept better for knowing you'd had the right info from me Tim! 2) yes, I use Audyssey on Sky and Bluray/DVD. I don't use the mic position per seat approach instead use 6 (see hometheatreshack or ask me if you want details) concentrated around my PLP and one each on the other two sofa seats. It does a good job IMO but a treated room like yours or mine helps. 3) No complaint about the Onkyo 709 sound and features, but I don't put music through the AVR just send the 709's preamp out into the Majestic and Proprius. 4) If 'reference level' is THX's home level of 75dB I think the Alpair 7's will be fine on power handling but I'd go for 80Hz crossover to avoid excessive cone excursion in loud films. Let those subs do the heavy lifting and save your horn loaded hifi speakers for music! 5) The Frugal Horns look very promising from all the online experiences, particularly our fellow forum members' delight with the drivers in the horns and other enclosures/panels. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2016 at 9:58pm
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Ash have you tried a larger panel which would lessen the cancellation, giving you some more bass without having a box? ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2016 at 2:38am
Some of the data sheets (e.g. 10M) make mention of an "arrester" to prevent damage with high volume low bass, so it will probably distort if pushed to hard due to the arrester. Regarding the paper cone (10P), I read that it was created for audiophile tastes. To me this means added distortion, and when a paper cone is subjected to several frequencies at the same time (i.e. music) the cone "breaks up", in other words its surface physically distorts. Stiffer cones (i.e. metal) therefore distort less, and this is probably why Alpair say the sound is more natural, because cone break up is not masking the sound. For me this would be very important, and it might result in me hearing more information than the LS35A. Hence my interest. ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2016 at 9:56am
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All of the MA drivers will experience cone break-up when they are used as full-range emitters as they will reproduce frequencies in the range where cone break-up occurs. The whole reason these drivers can do full-range is because break-up is carefully controlled and used to extend the frequency response. The paper used is Japanese and it is reinforced with glass fibres and a unique dyeing process in order to make the cone surface stiff enough. Just has to be kept out of direct sunlight and away from UV sources. Currently the MA "flagship" driver has a paper cone so I think fears of a "coloured audiophile sound" are misplaced. As for the Arrester module, I believe it begins to whistle when the limits of diaphragm travel are close to being reached. Not sure whether metal produces a more natural sound or whether, in fact, the sound character is merely slightly different. I think Mark wishes to engineer an improved metal-coned Alpair 12 in the future but as he's so poorly at the current time, it may not happen... |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2016 at 10:54am
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Ash - I didn't realise they weren't burnt-in yet. If the speakers are good enough then whisper quiet works well for music, but films have different requirements. Although I haven't heard one through the Alpairs yet... Jon - Haha, thanks. I hadn't heard of this method before but after reading it on their website, I have to try it soon! Thanks for that! My only concern with bypassing music through mine is if the extra signal will colour the sound. I guess it's safe to assume that you haven't found this to be the case though? That it is, but our maximum is generally -12.5db. The extra layer immersion requires it at times. I can't wait to hear what they sound like with my subs! I'd be interested to see how that changes the "produced" music too. In a word, breathtaking! Graham - The first thing I would do is sort out my crossover frequencies (after burn-in of course) so I'll make sure they don't run into this problem. I know I'm not experienced enough to have a qualified opinion on this but of the systems I have listened to, I can't say I remember being wowed by paper cones in speakers. Even when I was looking at the studio monitors, they may sound good but never to the same level as the Alpairs (although I've not heard THEIR paper cones). As time has gone on and I've though about it more, Ash was always right in pushing for these drivers and I'm glad he did. I'd probably still be in the same boat if I'd have to make the speakers myself or needed them for my office but with the possible changes ahead becoming a contributory factor, I'm happier going towards this idea. I think that films will sound much better too. It's just a shame there isn't somewhere we can demo the different drivers first! I'd be very interested to see what you think after hearing them Graham. As to the difference of the highs in the 7M vs the 10M, I'd still like to hear both to compare. For my usage the subs will take care of the lows but if I can just have them off for stereo, even better.
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Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2016 at 3:26pm
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Any of these MA drivers are low risk purchases. If you don't like one model; you sell them and try another model until you get the sound you like. If you look after your purchases, they won't lose much value when you come to sell them. I'd personally choose a 10 over a 7, for better dynamics. If I had to choose a metal cone, it would probably be a 10M grey, biggest emitter size available for MA metal at the moment. And if you have your doubts that any MA drivers can do deep bass, listen to a 12PW paper woofer. One alone produces deep bass and I have two pairs so I could generate very big and powerful deep bass with less excursion. Nearfield to midfield bass response goes low without a box, just a baffle. In the right enclosure and without the need for stupidly high volumes, they could perform as a low excursion subwoofer IMO and do an exceptional job of it. I might put my money where my mouth is and get both a pair of 10P and 10M, with the second Proprius pair I get when my spare K1000 sells. I'm waiting at the moment. At least if I do a paper vs metal comparison myself, I'll know for sure rather than having to rely on internet propaganda. (and if you're wondering how I can afford all this stuff, it's because I have no kids, no wife and no life...)   |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2016 at 6:39pm
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Out of curiosity when auditioning the new drivers are the mounted on a baffle of any sort or are they listened to naked (e.g. Proped up)? Reference is made to the drivers burning in -don't forget any crossover components are also likely to change during their own burn in though some components more than others. |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2016 at 6:48pm
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Ash - I'd love to be able to do that but I couldn't face the hassle at the moment. As it is it's looking like I'll be off work due to stress before too long anyway, and that's without me giving in to HR pushing me to start a formal grievance against my manager (long story). I need the easy option; buy the finished product and be happy. How about you get a set of each and become the official demo room for Mark Audio? That would suit me perfectly... Haha. It's going to be a hard choice without hearing them. Electric Beach are happy building whichever but I need confirmation about sacrificing the HF or not. The bottom end wasn't exactly light in the horns (understandably) but I do need to work out what initially left me unsure about them with more produced music. Health permitting, I'm hoping to drag myself over for another demo on the horns soon so if I will spend more time looking into this while I'm there.If the 12s can achieve that open baffle... Good idea. Stop rubbing it in man! Richardl60 - Mine will be quietly playing non-stop until they reach the required hours. I probably won't even listen to them until that point!
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Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2016 at 7:27pm
| I've listened to a 7P/12PW combo on cardboard open baffle and the sound was superb. The 12PW certainly made sure the bass was NOT lacking in my small room. I must've clearly been able to hear down to at least 50Hz (and no box). I decided that I wanted a large emitter for both midrange/treble and bass hence why I sold the 7P and bought the 12P. Now the whole listening band is conveyed by large 6.5 inch emitters. I'll probably use the 12P open baffle and use the 12PW in a partial/closed enclosure underneath it. Only heard the 12P "naked" so far without anything coupled to it but that's less significant when listening in the nearfield at moderate volume. An extremely resolving emitter. |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2016 at 7:31pm
| I can't remember if I've asked this before but do you find much different in the HF between the two? I know the 10 will be a fairer comparison... |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2016 at 7:39pm
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Well from memory, I didn't feel that the 12P lacked high frequency focus or detail. The midrange and treble simply had enormous clarity. The bass is well damped, controlled and simply present at lower SPL. It would rely on an enclosure to raise the SPL and impact of the bass region but I prefer to hear bass directly from an emitter *enter 12PW in box*.
Perhaps the 12P has a narrower treble dispersion than 7P so less of it when listening off-axis. However, I didn't investigate this. I'll be able to compare treble dispersion when I get a 10P.
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Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2016 at 8:45pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8Vff1oZyqY" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8Vff1oZyqY "Other way round actually. The paper cones are slightly stiffer than the metal"
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Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2016 at 9:20pm
I'm not convinced it is as precise a calculation as the impressive testing method is. I suspect PLP and five points roughly around where your head would have the same effect. The imaging is definitely better. Not a problem. I unplug the phono leads from the Accession and plug the AVR feed in there. (Obviously) you'll need a volume reference on the GSP gear when running Audyssey, I use the "v" on Majestic level. That's roughly where I go up to! -10dB is quite loud - maybe I'm getting old? I haven't tried the Frugal Horns so have no suggestion on subwoofer integration other than play music with drums and wide ranging bass lines and use your ears to judge what you have added. Old school perhaps but I usually build the home cinema round the hifi 'LR' sound I like for music. On a more personal note I hope your work situation improves and you are okay. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |