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help Graham mod his Rega!

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Graham Slee View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2010 at 2:19am
Originally posted by Fernando Fernando wrote:

Hi Graham,
 
Today your turntable is a Rega Planar 3 with Technics 1210 tonearm?...


No, that's what I want to try - to dispel a myth.

30 years ago it was approximately so - it had a similar arm to the Technics and didn't sound well.

I replaced the arm with a Roksan Tabriz but there was not much improvement and therefore I regret having to destroy the first arm - the only way to remove it.

As the Technics sounds warmer I would like to try the Technics arm.

If the Rega with Technics arm sounds just the same or very similar then I guess we have to blame everybody but Rega?

Well, that's what Hi-Fi usually does isn't it? It blames the blameless to promote itself.

Please understand I am not picking arguments with anybody here - I just like the truth.

That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps
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tg [RIP] View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tg [RIP] Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2010 at 3:56am
Mmmm - help you mod your Rega - OK
Identified issues :
VMS 20 sounds less than good on Rega but great on Technics.
Music Maker hums when used on Technics.
Never impressed with P3 anyway - bass not as good (resolved with better support).

Constraints :
Financial - minimum cost = best use of available resources.

First issue simply solved - use the VMS on the Technics, forget the Rega.
Second issue - hum issue with Grado (and Grado based) cartridges on Technics - possible resolution by modifying motor electronics/external PS - maybe talk to Leo on this one - not sure this will solve that particular problem though - more info needed - eg ask someone who has done that mod.
Otherwise use it on the Rega.
Reported by some users of the Music Maker that it is a good match with the Hadcock you already own.
Yes it is a "tweaky" arm and requires constant fettling, but can probably be mounted on the P3 without too much hassle. Does not provide easy cartridge changes.
Do you still have, have you tried, the MM with the Tabriz on the P3 ?
Cost so far, nil.

Now come the "spend money or trade gear" options,
my pick "best" arm for the P3 - Michell Tecnoarm (best VFM and execution).
a very good alternative that offers removeable headshell, Jelco 370H OEM may still be available NIB from ebay US, or Sumiko MMT (virtually the same arm) centre for centre drop-in replacement for Rega arms. slightly higher than medium mass and very good allround arms offering oil damping.
Another "drop-in" for the P3 is the Roksan Nima, another Unipivot which should work well with the MM.
Often available SH for not ridiculous money.
Either put a Funk Achromat on the glass platter or replace the platter with a Funk platter - this will give a more neutral presentation than the felt on glass while retaining liveliness.
A clamp or weight should be used with the Funk and check the amount of spindle exposed before obtaining one of these, they require either 3mm or 5mm - (I do not have the spindle extension problem as I use an aftermarket sub-platter with a longer spindle)
Some like the open weave sponge type mats on the glass platter - cheap to try - make your own.
Less "dead" sounding than rubber but still damp the glass ringing to some degree.
Regas tend to run fast, I suspect this is a design compensation to counter the inevitable slowing when transients are encountered (belt will momentarily stretch in reaction to increased drag from the stylus).
This, I think, will tend to emphasise the leading edges and requires impeccable tracking from the cartridge to balance that will a full decay. Good dissipation of spurious energies in the record will improve the tracking, as also will good dissipation of the extra energies the cartridge puts into the arm, the Tecnoarm is well thought out in that respect and the oil damping of the Jelco/Sumiko similarly. The quantity of spurious energy generated at the stylus/groove interface is dependent in large degree on the stiffness or lack thereof of the cartridge suspension - eg the compliance. - low compliance = more energy.
You could have a chat with John from Audio Origami in Glasgow (I think) - he is reputedly very good with many arms/mods and an excellent craftsman by all accounts - does not have a "golden pen" either.
There are many other mods for the P2/P3, I have done many of them and really like how mine sounds.
They did cost a considerable amount.
I personally would not attempt putting a 1200 arm on a Rega, the dynamics of the plinth are vastly different. Unlike many I was not that impressed with a Rega arm on the Technics, best results were with the locknut barely holding the arm and a decoupling "O" ring above the locknut - this would not be possible with one of the new 3 point mount arms - the arm put too much energy into the plinth otherwise - to my ears - the Rega composite plinth is better able to dissipate this energy - the directly coupled rubber "boots" no doubt contribute.
Apologies if any of this sounds like telling nan how to suck eggs.
T

PS - you replied while I was composing all this - I note your comment on the the Technics sounding "warmer" - my feeling there would be that it is more related to the glass platter and damping of the record than on the arm.
In that respect, SRM Tech (another Michell - don't know if they are related) make a "platter damping ring" that fits around the rim of the glass platter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fatmangolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2010 at 6:44pm
I am not an expert and don't have the extensive experience of tg and others. But I am happy to share my observations, please bear in mind the P3-24 is my first proper turntable!
 
My P3-24 mods in order of impact:
* Replaced the sub platter and bearing with ISOsub GT £100 - major improvement including deeper bass and clearer sounding
* Replaced the glass platter with 25mm thick acrylic ISOplatter £120 - clearer and less harsh
* Fitted Michell Tecnoweight £75 - clearer sound
* TT powersupply £145 - slight improvement in clarity plus convenience of switched 33/45 change.
 
So my upgrades doubled the spend on buying the P3-24. But I really like the resulting turntable, especially through a Graham Slee preamp.
 
I didn't do the P2/3 upgrade £80(?) but I understand the improvement from the original Rega motor is dramatic.
 
The RB301 on my P3-24 already has reasonable internal cabling and leads, but I understand this was a weakness on the older arms. From other forums I suspect a rewire would be a big improvement on RB250 or RB300, whether DIY or sent away for work.
 
Sorry to state the obvious but if your Rega arm has a three point fitting, don't use it. Get an arc protractor for Rega use and align for Lofgren A/Baerwald. This and playing with the bias/antiskate will improve the separation and stereo image.
 
Hope this helps
 
Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2010 at 11:02pm
Originally posted by tg tg wrote:


Apologies if any of this sounds like telling nan how to suck eggs.
T


Welcome to the moderator group!

What an incredibly good guide you are!
That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tg [RIP] Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2010 at 2:49am

Erm, thanks, I think  Embarrassed

I'm no "born again" policeman so I hope the duties are largely ceremonial. Wink

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2010 at 9:26am
Originally posted by tg tg wrote:

Erm, thanks, I think  Embarrassed

I'm no "born again" policeman so I hope the duties are largely ceremonial. Wink



Shouldn't need them in this backwater of what is otherwise "hyped-up-virtual-space" Smile

If I can alter the word "moderator" to something more fitting for 'quite knowledgeable/experienced people who are considerate in what they write and share it', I'll have a go. But as to the word to choose...???
That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2010 at 9:19pm

I read through posts after this one and got a bit lost, so I've gone back to the beginning. My first reaction is that this sounds mostly like a simple case of mistracking. Do you use a guage, like the Shure, to measure tracking force? I've often found that the settings achieved by trusting the counterweight dials built into arms like the Technics to be less than accurate.

I's also wonder about a compliance mismatch between the arm and cartridge. I believe the VMS was a fairly compliant MM designed to work with lowish mass arms. I'm not sure about the Lustre, but the Tabriz was designed for low compliance MC cartridges such as Roksan's own modified EMT. The arm in the 1210, however, is built to play well with the high compliance Ortophons, Shures, etc. It could be you were fighting mistracking caused by resonance.
 
I run my Dorian Stereo at 1.9 grams, even though the recommended tracking force is 1.8.  I made this determination very simply by listening via headphones and playing moderately demanding recordings, then upping the tracking force until the tracking problems i heard in the upper frequencies stopped. After that I messed a bit with VTA and SRA and pretty much found that it sounded fine with a level arm. I've heard different examples of the same cartridges track best at different weights. In my system with this cartridge, 1.8 mistracks and 1.9 does not.
 
Could also be that, by cranking it up to 1.5 grams, you were fine tuning the SRA to the point where the best balance was achieved. It's possible that 1 gram with the right SRA could have given you the correct tonal balance, but depending the amount of adjustability the arm had you might never have achieved this by raising or lowering the arm. Sometimes you have to adjust the tracking weight to dial in the right SRA (in fact some folks think this is easier to do than adjusting the arm.)
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