Print Page | Close Window

help Graham mod his Rega!

Printed From: Graham Slee Hifi System Components
Category: Turntable Audio
Forum Name: DJ and Professional Turntable User
Forum Description: Technical Q&A, hints and tips
URL: https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=908
Printed Date: 27 Mar 2026 at 12:15am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: help Graham mod his Rega!
Posted By: Graham Slee
Subject: help Graham mod his Rega!
Date Posted: 06 Jun 2010 at 10:27am
I must have bought my Ortofon VMS20E II cartridge 25 years ago. I can't be sure but I think it cost me £40. I bought it for my Rega Planar 3 turntable which had the Acos Lustre arm with removable head shell. Previously the Rega was fitted with a "Satin" high output moving coil cartridge which was far too bright and spitty no matter what electronics it was used into.

Recommended tracking weight was 1 gram! I could never get any satisfaction at 1 gram, and it spent many years tracking at 1.5 gram. After swapping arms for the Roksan Tabriz it would still not track at 1 gram and give the right tonal balance - always sounding brittle.

I semi-retired it when I got a new stylus for it and found it just the same.

Today in 2010 I am using it on a bog standard Technics SL1210, which uses !!!!an Acos Lustre arm!!! AND it's tracking at 1 gram! AND it sounds great!

I started off at 1.5 grams and it sounded distorted on the really heavy bits of Porcupine Tree's incident album. There was added fuzz to the fuzz and I'm afraid that's just "not cricket!" The usual direction is to increase tracking weight but that wasn't the case here.

So, my question is if the Technics arm is "no good" then how is it I am at last getting such fantastic results with a cartridge that couldn't track properly on so-called Hi-Fi gear???

(please be careful with your answers Wink)



-------------
That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps



Replies:
Posted By: Cyreg
Date Posted: 06 Jun 2010 at 12:46pm
If you did use the same Acos (not a different serailnbr that is) arm on the PlanarIII and the 1200 , I could understand you being surprised at it and so would I.
Ok, you still have armheight in relation to needleposition that has its effects.
 
Anyway, if different Acos snbrs are used than you need some more trial in the same setup before any conclusion can be made.
Proposal: replace the arm/cartridge of the 1200 to the PlanarIII and see what happens!Smile
From there (what result?) we could discuss further maybe. Han


-------------
TecnoDec/RB250/MP110>GramAmp2C/PSU1; Cyrus CD8SE; > Exposure 3010S2D INT > Harbeth C7ES-3 '35th Anniversary'
cabling: IC 2x DNM V3; LScable Exposure DMF-two; Furu TP60 + MWaY and BlackCable pc's


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 06 Jun 2010 at 1:44pm
If I could find a 1210 arm assembly (complete with height adjuster) I would try it - any suggestions as where to look? (a good price though...)

If stewartwen is about, do you have one?

I take on board the arm adjustments but found hardly any difference between 0 and 3mm.

I am using a Stanton head shell without the rubber ring.

On the Rega I used an AKG magnesium head-shell and the pressed aluminium (aluminum) Rega head-shell, again without the rubber rings.




-------------
That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps


Posted By: tg [RIP]
Date Posted: 06 Jun 2010 at 4:58pm

A couple of thoughts, first I could see it being a deal more difficult to put a 1200 arm and adjustment mechanism into a Rega plinth than to put a Rega arm into a Technics.

The former will require some drastic surgery on the plinth I would expect.

Secondly, and perhaps more apropos, similar appearing arms can have widely varying effective mass by utilising varying armtube materials or thicknesses, consider the SME 3009 of the period where effective mass varied from around 7 gm to around 13 gm.  Since the effective mass provides the inertia against which the stylus/cantilever must push whilst attempting to move generating elements relative to each other to generate a signal, it is arguably of more importance than VTF in optimising tracking.

Certainly the practise of "mass loading" medium mass arms, such as the RB250/300 to optimise the performance of low compliance cartridges such as the DL-103 is an example of this.  I rather feel that varying the impedance loading of MC cartridges has a similar effect, although not to the same degree.

It may well be that the present medium mass 1200 arm is of higher effective mass than the similar arm fitted to the Planar 3 at a time when higher compliance cartridges were more common.  The very light SME 3009 SIII was developed to meet the requirements of the Shure V15 as were many other arms of that period.

Conjecture to be sure, but is that not the scientific method ? - formulate a theory that fits the observed facts and then test it ?

Over to you tester 1. Wacko




Posted By: Cyreg
Date Posted: 06 Jun 2010 at 6:23pm
You know Graham, to be honest, I didn't like you to dismiss (at least that was my conclusion) just the PlanarIII-drive on former mentioned grounds.
I also know you're not a big Rega fan (too much leading edge Ermm) and I am one for sure.
 
That's why I suggested a comparison with same arm/cartridge on both drives.
(Is in reality not very interesting for me, just wanted to make my point, so......)
 
But as TG also mentions, there are a lot of other differences possible between the two Acos arms, used in both cases, now and 20 years ago, even aside from evt. defects.
 
So, don't worry about it and be assured I can respect your different opinion too.  
And that didn't work out too bad with your phono- and headphone amps eitherWink


-------------
TecnoDec/RB250/MP110>GramAmp2C/PSU1; Cyrus CD8SE; > Exposure 3010S2D INT > Harbeth C7ES-3 '35th Anniversary'
cabling: IC 2x DNM V3; LScable Exposure DMF-two; Furu TP60 + MWaY and BlackCable pc's


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 06 Jun 2010 at 6:25pm
tg, don't tell anybody but I'm not an expert on things like effective mass...

No, I'm the electronics man, and this is why I started the owners forum/club so that others (like yourself) could share a bit of knowledge with the rest of us (like me...ShockedWink).

As for fitting the complete Technics arm including height adjuster to a Rega Planar 3, although sounding completely crazy, well, I'm like that... Cool

...and after all, I've had the thing 30 years and never been "blown away" with it.

As this thread is getting a bit "wild" (because of me...) I decided to change the title to "help Graham mod his Rega"

Just spotted your reply Han - not so much a difference of opinion - more me being a bit of a "contradictionist" (or pest...Wink)


-------------
That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps


Posted By: Fernando
Date Posted: 06 Jun 2010 at 10:32pm
Hi Graham,
 
Today your turntable is a Rega Planar 3 with Technics 1210 tonearm? I'm not a analogue expert, but i suggest the replace again your SL 1210 tonearm for new Rega Armboard. 
 
Rega from last two years ago replace the old tonearm and armboards (RB301 instead for RB300 for example ) for a new one with three chassis fixation points. Please find bellow link, you have some exemples of different tonearms use in a traditional Technics SL1210 turntable's chassis:
 
http://%20www.soundhifi.com/sl1200/index.htm - http:// www.soundhifi.com/sl1200/index.htm
 
 
I hope with these small help
 
Regards


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2010 at 2:19am
Originally posted by Fernando Fernando wrote:

Hi Graham,
 
Today your turntable is a Rega Planar 3 with Technics 1210 tonearm?...


No, that's what I want to try - to dispel a myth.

30 years ago it was approximately so - it had a similar arm to the Technics and didn't sound well.

I replaced the arm with a Roksan Tabriz but there was not much improvement and therefore I regret having to destroy the first arm - the only way to remove it.

As the Technics sounds warmer I would like to try the Technics arm.

If the Rega with Technics arm sounds just the same or very similar then I guess we have to blame everybody but Rega?

Well, that's what Hi-Fi usually does isn't it? It blames the blameless to promote itself.

Please understand I am not picking arguments with anybody here - I just like the truth.



-------------
That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps


Posted By: tg [RIP]
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2010 at 3:56am
Mmmm - help you mod your Rega - OK
Identified issues :
VMS 20 sounds less than good on Rega but great on Technics.
Music Maker hums when used on Technics.
Never impressed with P3 anyway - bass not as good (resolved with better support).

Constraints :
Financial - minimum cost = best use of available resources.

First issue simply solved - use the VMS on the Technics, forget the Rega.
Second issue - hum issue with Grado (and Grado based) cartridges on Technics - possible resolution by modifying motor electronics/external PS - maybe talk to Leo on this one - not sure this will solve that particular problem though - more info needed - eg ask someone who has done that mod.
Otherwise use it on the Rega.
Reported by some users of the Music Maker that it is a good match with the Hadcock you already own.
Yes it is a "tweaky" arm and requires constant fettling, but can probably be mounted on the P3 without too much hassle. Does not provide easy cartridge changes.
Do you still have, have you tried, the MM with the Tabriz on the P3 ?
Cost so far, nil.

Now come the "spend money or trade gear" options,
my pick "best" arm for the P3 - Michell Tecnoarm (best VFM and execution).
a very good alternative that offers removeable headshell, Jelco 370H OEM may still be available NIB from ebay US, or Sumiko MMT (virtually the same arm) centre for centre drop-in replacement for Rega arms. slightly higher than medium mass and very good allround arms offering oil damping.
Another "drop-in" for the P3 is the Roksan Nima, another Unipivot which should work well with the MM.
Often available SH for not ridiculous money.
Either put a Funk Achromat on the glass platter or replace the platter with a Funk platter - this will give a more neutral presentation than the felt on glass while retaining liveliness.
A clamp or weight should be used with the Funk and check the amount of spindle exposed before obtaining one of these, they require either 3mm or 5mm - (I do not have the spindle extension problem as I use an aftermarket sub-platter with a longer spindle)
Some like the open weave sponge type mats on the glass platter - cheap to try - make your own.
Less "dead" sounding than rubber but still damp the glass ringing to some degree.
Regas tend to run fast, I suspect this is a design compensation to counter the inevitable slowing when transients are encountered (belt will momentarily stretch in reaction to increased drag from the stylus).
This, I think, will tend to emphasise the leading edges and requires impeccable tracking from the cartridge to balance that will a full decay. Good dissipation of spurious energies in the record will improve the tracking, as also will good dissipation of the extra energies the cartridge puts into the arm, the Tecnoarm is well thought out in that respect and the oil damping of the Jelco/Sumiko similarly. The quantity of spurious energy generated at the stylus/groove interface is dependent in large degree on the stiffness or lack thereof of the cartridge suspension - eg the compliance. - low compliance = more energy.
You could have a chat with John from Audio Origami in Glasgow (I think) - he is reputedly very good with many arms/mods and an excellent craftsman by all accounts - does not have a "golden pen" either.
There are many other mods for the P2/P3, I have done many of them and really like how mine sounds.
They did cost a considerable amount.
I personally would not attempt putting a 1200 arm on a Rega, the dynamics of the plinth are vastly different. Unlike many I was not that impressed with a Rega arm on the Technics, best results were with the locknut barely holding the arm and a decoupling "O" ring above the locknut - this would not be possible with one of the new 3 point mount arms - the arm put too much energy into the plinth otherwise - to my ears - the Rega composite plinth is better able to dissipate this energy - the directly coupled rubber "boots" no doubt contribute.
Apologies if any of this sounds like telling nan how to suck eggs.
T

PS - you replied while I was composing all this - I note your comment on the the Technics sounding "warmer" - my feeling there would be that it is more related to the glass platter and damping of the record than on the arm.
In that respect, SRM Tech (another Michell - don't know if they are related) make a "platter damping ring" that fits around the rim of the glass platter.


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2010 at 6:44pm
I am not an expert and don't have the extensive experience of tg and others. But I am happy to share my observations, please bear in mind the P3-24 is my first proper turntable!
 
My P3-24 mods in order of impact:
* Replaced the sub platter and bearing with ISOsub GT £100 - major improvement including deeper bass and clearer sounding
* Replaced the glass platter with 25mm thick acrylic ISOplatter £120 - clearer and less harsh
* Fitted Michell Tecnoweight £75 - clearer sound
* TT powersupply £145 - slight improvement in clarity plus convenience of switched 33/45 change.
 
So my upgrades doubled the spend on buying the P3-24. But I really like the resulting turntable, especially through a Graham Slee preamp.
 
I didn't do the P2/3 upgrade £80(?) but I understand the improvement from the original Rega motor is dramatic.
 
The RB301 on my P3-24 already has reasonable internal cabling and leads, but I understand this was a weakness on the older arms. From other forums I suspect a rewire would be a big improvement on RB250 or RB300, whether DIY or sent away for work.
 
Sorry to state the obvious but if your Rega arm has a three point fitting, don't use it. Get an arc protractor for Rega use and align for Lofgren A/Baerwald. This and playing with the bias/antiskate will improve the separation and stereo image.
 
Hope this helps
 


-------------
Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 07 Jun 2010 at 11:02pm
Originally posted by tg tg wrote:


Apologies if any of this sounds like telling nan how to suck eggs.
T


Welcome to the moderator group!

What an incredibly good guide you are!


-------------
That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps


Posted By: tg [RIP]
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2010 at 2:49am

Erm, thanks, I think  Embarrassed

I'm no "born again" policeman so I hope the duties are largely ceremonial. Wink



Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2010 at 9:26am
Originally posted by tg tg wrote:

Erm, thanks, I think  Embarrassed

I'm no "born again" policeman so I hope the duties are largely ceremonial. Wink



Shouldn't need them in this backwater of what is otherwise "hyped-up-virtual-space" Smile

If I can alter the word "moderator" to something more fitting for 'quite knowledgeable/experienced people who are considerate in what they write and share it', I'll have a go. But as to the word to choose...???


-------------
That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps


Posted By: SteveC
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2010 at 9:19pm

I read through posts after this one and got a bit lost, so I've gone back to the beginning. My first reaction is that this sounds mostly like a simple case of mistracking. Do you use a guage, like the Shure, to measure tracking force? I've often found that the settings achieved by trusting the counterweight dials built into arms like the Technics to be less than accurate.

I's also wonder about a compliance mismatch between the arm and cartridge. I believe the VMS was a fairly compliant MM designed to work with lowish mass arms. I'm not sure about the Lustre, but the Tabriz was designed for low compliance MC cartridges such as Roksan's own modified EMT. The arm in the 1210, however, is built to play well with the high compliance Ortophons, Shures, etc. It could be you were fighting mistracking caused by resonance.
 
I run my Dorian Stereo at 1.9 grams, even though the recommended tracking force is 1.8.  I made this determination very simply by listening via headphones and playing moderately demanding recordings, then upping the tracking force until the tracking problems i heard in the upper frequencies stopped. After that I messed a bit with VTA and SRA and pretty much found that it sounded fine with a level arm. I've heard different examples of the same cartridges track best at different weights. In my system with this cartridge, 1.8 mistracks and 1.9 does not.
 
Could also be that, by cranking it up to 1.5 grams, you were fine tuning the SRA to the point where the best balance was achieved. It's possible that 1 gram with the right SRA could have given you the correct tonal balance, but depending the amount of adjustability the arm had you might never have achieved this by raising or lowering the arm. Sometimes you have to adjust the tracking weight to dial in the right SRA (in fact some folks think this is easier to do than adjusting the arm.)


Posted By: Chivas
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2010 at 12:00pm
Originally posted by Graham Slee Graham Slee wrote:

If I could find a 1210 arm assembly (complete with height adjuster) I would try it - any suggestions as where to look? (a good price though...)

 
Graham, if you are still looking for the 1210 arm, I have one in mint condition.
 
Chivas


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2010 at 5:04pm
How much?

-------------
That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps


Posted By: Chivas
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2010 at 11:09am
Not sure what a reasonable price is they go for. Looking on ebay and other forums it seems to be between £80-£100. Anyone care to give some input?
 
How far are you with the development of the Reflex MM-UL? We can always work in a part exchange... Wink


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2010 at 2:16pm
Been shipping for 2-3 months but our dealers are always frightened about new stuff without a handful of reviews to say it's alright...

Users reviews are of no interest to some/most of them...

Our dealers are so very supportive that only one of them are members here...

Local lads from Doncaster!


-------------
That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2010 at 9:11pm

On the Rega theme, I did an internal rewire to Litz wire using an old B string to draw the wires through. It makes a difference on an P3-24 so I imagine a greater benefit on Planar 1-3. If you have the tools and electronics experience, it is a lot easier than you would expect! Well worth £10 and an hour or two's work. There are some excellent DI4Y services out there.

Jon
 


-------------
Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: tg [RIP]
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2012 at 12:27pm

Thought I might resurrect this old thread rather than clutter the Genera thread.

Graham, which motor did you order for the P3 ? - the new 24v one or the older one ?

Point being, if they have not/cannot supply, I have a spare of the older type here that I am unlikely to use having replaced it with the 24v version and speed switch PS.

It is still the newer design with the adhesive pad mounts rather than the old style rubber "O" rings.

Also have the PCB and IIRC some adhesive mounts that I did not use for the new 24v motor.

Motor has been fitted with an adjustable thrust bearing too that did not go on the 24v one.




Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2012 at 5:21pm
Dear tg, how might I pay to avail myself of your kind offer?

I ordered the mains motor (230V) - the type with the additional thrust bearing, but I'd be quite happy to get one that simply works and has the pulley glued on concentrically instead of my special Rega eccentric pulley.

Thanks in anticipation mate!




-------------
That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps


Posted By: gmdb
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2012 at 10:32am
The older upgrade motor tg mentioned is the motor upgrade I have been doing on the Planars.  It really is a leap ahead in my opinion. 



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net