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help Graham mod his Rega!
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Graham Slee View Drop Down
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    Posted: 06 Jun 2010 at 10:27am
I must have bought my Ortofon VMS20E II cartridge 25 years ago. I can't be sure but I think it cost me £40. I bought it for my Rega Planar 3 turntable which had the Acos Lustre arm with removable head shell. Previously the Rega was fitted with a "Satin" high output moving coil cartridge which was far too bright and spitty no matter what electronics it was used into.

Recommended tracking weight was 1 gram! I could never get any satisfaction at 1 gram, and it spent many years tracking at 1.5 gram. After swapping arms for the Roksan Tabriz it would still not track at 1 gram and give the right tonal balance - always sounding brittle.

I semi-retired it when I got a new stylus for it and found it just the same.

Today in 2010 I am using it on a bog standard Technics SL1210, which uses !!!!an Acos Lustre arm!!! AND it's tracking at 1 gram! AND it sounds great!

I started off at 1.5 grams and it sounded distorted on the really heavy bits of Porcupine Tree's incident album. There was added fuzz to the fuzz and I'm afraid that's just "not cricket!" The usual direction is to increase tracking weight but that wasn't the case here.

So, my question is if the Technics arm is "no good" then how is it I am at last getting such fantastic results with a cartridge that couldn't track properly on so-called Hi-Fi gear???

(please be careful with your answers Wink)



Edited by Graham Slee - 06 Jun 2010 at 6:26pm
That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps
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Cyreg View Drop Down
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Points: 316 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyreg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2010 at 12:46pm
If you did use the same Acos (not a different serailnbr that is) arm on the PlanarIII and the 1200 , I could understand you being surprised at it and so would I.
Ok, you still have armheight in relation to needleposition that has its effects.
 
Anyway, if different Acos snbrs are used than you need some more trial in the same setup before any conclusion can be made.
Proposal: replace the arm/cartridge of the 1200 to the PlanarIII and see what happens!Smile
From there (what result?) we could discuss further maybe. Han
TecnoDec/RB250/MP110>GramAmp2C/PSU1; Cyrus CD8SE; > Exposure 3010S2D INT > Harbeth C7ES-3 '35th Anniversary'
cabling: IC 2x DNM V3; LScable Exposure DMF-two; Furu TP60 + MWaY and BlackCable pc's
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Graham Slee View Drop Down
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If I could find a 1210 arm assembly (complete with height adjuster) I would try it - any suggestions as where to look? (a good price though...)

If stewartwen is about, do you have one?

I take on board the arm adjustments but found hardly any difference between 0 and 3mm.

I am using a Stanton head shell without the rubber ring.

On the Rega I used an AKG magnesium head-shell and the pressed aluminium (aluminum) Rega head-shell, again without the rubber rings.
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tg [RIP] View Drop Down
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Points: 1866 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tg [RIP] Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2010 at 4:58pm

A couple of thoughts, first I could see it being a deal more difficult to put a 1200 arm and adjustment mechanism into a Rega plinth than to put a Rega arm into a Technics.

The former will require some drastic surgery on the plinth I would expect.

Secondly, and perhaps more apropos, similar appearing arms can have widely varying effective mass by utilising varying armtube materials or thicknesses, consider the SME 3009 of the period where effective mass varied from around 7 gm to around 13 gm.  Since the effective mass provides the inertia against which the stylus/cantilever must push whilst attempting to move generating elements relative to each other to generate a signal, it is arguably of more importance than VTF in optimising tracking.

Certainly the practise of "mass loading" medium mass arms, such as the RB250/300 to optimise the performance of low compliance cartridges such as the DL-103 is an example of this.  I rather feel that varying the impedance loading of MC cartridges has a similar effect, although not to the same degree.

It may well be that the present medium mass 1200 arm is of higher effective mass than the similar arm fitted to the Planar 3 at a time when higher compliance cartridges were more common.  The very light SME 3009 SIII was developed to meet the requirements of the Shure V15 as were many other arms of that period.

Conjecture to be sure, but is that not the scientific method ? - formulate a theory that fits the observed facts and then test it ?

Over to you tester 1. Wacko
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Points: 316 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyreg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2010 at 6:23pm
You know Graham, to be honest, I didn't like you to dismiss (at least that was my conclusion) just the PlanarIII-drive on former mentioned grounds.
I also know you're not a big Rega fan (too much leading edge Ermm) and I am one for sure.
 
That's why I suggested a comparison with same arm/cartridge on both drives.
(Is in reality not very interesting for me, just wanted to make my point, so......)
 
But as TG also mentions, there are a lot of other differences possible between the two Acos arms, used in both cases, now and 20 years ago, even aside from evt. defects.
 
So, don't worry about it and be assured I can respect your different opinion too.  
And that didn't work out too bad with your phono- and headphone amps eitherWink
TecnoDec/RB250/MP110>GramAmp2C/PSU1; Cyrus CD8SE; > Exposure 3010S2D INT > Harbeth C7ES-3 '35th Anniversary'
cabling: IC 2x DNM V3; LScable Exposure DMF-two; Furu TP60 + MWaY and BlackCable pc's
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Graham Slee View Drop Down
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Points: 16314 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2010 at 6:25pm
tg, don't tell anybody but I'm not an expert on things like effective mass...

No, I'm the electronics man, and this is why I started the owners forum/club so that others (like yourself) could share a bit of knowledge with the rest of us (like me...ShockedWink).

As for fitting the complete Technics arm including height adjuster to a Rega Planar 3, although sounding completely crazy, well, I'm like that... Cool

...and after all, I've had the thing 30 years and never been "blown away" with it.

As this thread is getting a bit "wild" (because of me...) I decided to change the title to "help Graham mod his Rega"

Just spotted your reply Han - not so much a difference of opinion - more me being a bit of a "contradictionist" (or pest...Wink)


Edited by Graham Slee - 06 Jun 2010 at 6:35pm
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Fernando View Drop Down
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Points: 216 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fernando Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2010 at 10:32pm
Hi Graham,
 
Today your turntable is a Rega Planar 3 with Technics 1210 tonearm? I'm not a analogue expert, but i suggest the replace again your SL 1210 tonearm for new Rega Armboard. 
 
Rega from last two years ago replace the old tonearm and armboards (RB301 instead for RB300 for example ) for a new one with three chassis fixation points. Please find bellow link, you have some exemples of different tonearms use in a traditional Technics SL1210 turntable's chassis:
 
 
 
I hope with these small help
 
Regards


Edited by Fernando - 06 Jun 2010 at 11:13pm
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