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Digitising LPs - a question for Graham

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zwazoo View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zwazoo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2012 at 5:30pm

Graham, I was just wondering depending on how the switch activated removal of the equalization circuit was placed in the circuit could cause an output impedance change such that it could cause distortion to the signal. Your explanation with actual electrical theory as apposed the more main stream explanations is refreshing and I now understand what the problems are.

 Could the "100:1 level difference" problem be solved with a phone preamp integrated into the ADC?

Tom

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote tg [RIP] Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Nov 2012 at 5:16am

Long time with no input to this thread, I have now moved it to the more recently created digital audio forum under the appropriate heading. 

Continuing on from the last couple of posts, one of the interfaces (2 versions actually) I use are from Terratec and provide a phono specific input and a software plugin to apply the RIAA eq post recording.

At a period earlier this year, I made a number of recordings using this input method with "acceptable" results, it did seem that the output of the Denon DL-110 I was using with it was suited to its input requirements and clipping was not an issue. Higher output cartridges were problematic.
This was prior to my modification of the buffer, which, until now, I have not tried in its intended application.
I have now had opportunity to try the buffered approach on 9 LPs and am rather more happy with the results.
Using the Reflex into the buffer which then feeds an M-Audio Firewire Audiophile 24/96.

On one compilation album showing marked level variation from one track to another, I found I was able to switch attenuation up or down between tracks, while recording, with no switching noise and level the whole album rather effectively.
Admittedly not on the first take.

I have virtually settled on using Sound Forge Audio Studio for recording, it has a number of features I find useful, it can use ASIO drivers, VST plug-ins and set metadata on .wav files to carry useful recording information.
It's handling of metadata is not as complete as dBpoweramp Reference edition, which is also a part of my collection of "must have" audio software.
The recording interface is simple and powerful with many options, the most useful feature being the ability to hold the peak level which will turn red on clipping and stay that way until reset, making it much simpler to run through an album to set level without having to watch it like a hawk.
It also allows very simple compression or expansion of the timeline to view levels of a whole recording in one view or spread a very short interval along the line to aid in delicate cuting or glitch removal.
As part of a video editing package (the HD Platinum Suite), the price is most acceptable for the functionality afforded.

Revisiting the earlier recordings made using the Terratec phono in and comparing them to these made with the buffered arrangement, shows that the Terratec phono applied quite a deal of level reduction in order to achieve its result, in comparison to what was possible using this arrangement.
IOW I was able to record to a higher peak level without clipping and keep the average signal within the recommended range.
Naturally the Reflex provides a much better result with greater dynamics being evident, along with the greater refinement one might expect from a much more accomplished phono stage.
The ADC should be fairly similar as both the Terratec and the M-Audio use the Envy 24 chip and IIRC AKM hard codecs.

A few screenshots illustrating some of the above:




A few more thoughts on this recent exercise when I gather it together.





Edited by tg - 30 Nov 2012 at 5:24am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fatmangolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Nov 2012 at 8:26pm
Thanks Tony, this is very useful information.
 
Jon
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Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sylvain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2013 at 3:47pm
Graham
The 'Genera' was des9ged to be a capable , flexible . modification friendly to alow DIYers the opportuity  customise to their specific requiremet ad your comprehensive narrative o the desig ad the rationale for every component got me excited and I jumped ad built ad happy..  Subsequently heard that you were producing a 'wonder' encapsulated little magic of components to add the ''valvee flavour'' but this never came about for the NOVO or the GENERA that I built.
 
Now I am caught by another bug...digitizig Vinyl to 24/96 and i have researched all the Forum exchanges and again the comprehesive text  you provided i the project.
I list the issues as Follows:-
 
  • Need a FLAT CURVE output and you provided some basic mods to effect same to the GENERA
  • Then there is the matter of IMPEDENCE matching/adequate Dynamics
  • Next is the issue of Attenuation of  either at the Phono or ADC but at PHONO preferred.
  • There is also a debate as to whether the RIAA equalisatio should be added after ADC process.
  • There is a debate that the ADC and phono Equalisation/RIAA should be One Unit with a good stepeed attennuator.
  • Ther is a Software isse as 'Audacity' is free but with limitations andpoor instructions mong other
  • There are other issues but the thread of Forum discussion is split across a number of opics on the Forum.
Now the questions.
 
Of all my reserach You provide the most lucid explanation of the technical constraints and semm well glued and whilst some companies are ow producig ADC icorporated Phono are you likely to go down that road.
IS THE GENERA 'Generic desig suitable for modification fo the purpose to icoorporate a ADC card and matchig with Stylus cartridege.
 
Can you assist us ad those itrested ad ay plans for a KIT  of the subject ..
 
Regards and enjoy the rain inClapdoors with music.
 
Sylvain'
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2013 at 5:57pm
Sylvain, yes the valvee sound - I'd not forgot. It's just that time seems to fly doing my job - I wish it wouldn't...

The donor op-amp needs to have certain characteristics for a phono stage more so than a line stage or headphone amp. This is because it has the job of charging and discharging the EQ network symmetrically and few op-amps can do that (and discrete circuits can be even worse!). I'm still hunting one that does the symmetry as well as having the necessary output current - plus the secret ingredient. The existing op-amp in the Genera does everything else.

As is usual for me I like to see what my competitors do and then go the opposite direction Wink. The phono stage ADC is something I've been investigating for a while now. It should hopefully happen this year, but 5 months of it are almost already gone, and I do have a pile of design work to get through this year.

As for post ADC EQ, that should be a non-starter because of dynamic range limitations in the analogue domain. If you just count the dynamic range envelope for the signal you will need 40dB which is easy. But that does not consider the S/N ratio. Neither does it consider the vinyl noise (clicks and pops) whose rising edges are above 20kHz and that has to be equated with the rising response of a magnetic cartridge. For my standards of reproduction this is simply not feasible. Others may disagree but the proof is in the listening and from my previous experience I know it will not sound as good as I'd want it to be.


Edited by Graham Slee - 14 May 2013 at 6:06pm
That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps
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