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DC on the mains

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CageyH View Drop Down
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    Posted: 27 Jan 2022 at 8:39pm
The toroidal transformers in my power amp have started to buzz slightly. It is annoying when listening at lower volumes, late at night when my daughter is asleep.

The power amp was built as a dual mono, and has two 400VA transformers in it, and 8 x22,000uF capacitors is the power supply section.

I have had issues with DC on the mains before, and I have measured it, carefully. It seems to be a thing that occurs more in winter, probably due to more people using electricity for heating purposes.
So, I think I need to build myself a DC blocker. There are plenty of circuits available, and even bare PCBs available.

The question is, what kind of current capacity should I allow for? With the soft start circuit, I can run my amp with a fuse of about 5 amps, so if I went for 10A, this should give me enough headroom? 

The fuse rating was calculated using the following:
VA/Vmains < Ifuse < 1.5 x VA/Vmains
VA/Vmains gives me roughly 3.5A, so 1.5 x VA/Vmains gives me 5.2A, so 5A was chosen.
So if I build a DC blocker with 10A constant current capacity, it should be more than adequate?

I’ll add a little disclaimer - if you don’t know what you are doing with mains electricity, then don’t mess around with it. It can, and if given a good enough chance, will kill you.


Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.
Funkified SL1200 Mk.II, BB3, Firebottle Kin , ADI-2 DAC FS, Modulus 686, PD-S703, Solo UL, Triangle Antal EZ
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TimW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2022 at 9:08pm
Kevin,
I’ll be interested to know how you get on with your DC blocker. I’ve got a similar buzzing / humming on my Audiolab 8000p. It’s not at an intrusive level and doesn’t affect listening, but I can hear it when the music’s off. Seems to be quieter at some points then louder at others.

I’ve seen that ifi Audio and Audiolab have DC blockers available for around the £100 mark. So have considered this. As mentioned the toroid buzz isn’t that loud that I can hear it while listening to music. It’s just that nagging feeling that I know that it’s there. 
L*nn LP12, Jelco 750D, AT440MLb / Technics 1200 MKII (Various Carts) / GS Gram Amp 2 SE / Audiolab and Arcam Amplification / Mission 752 Freedom / Dynaudio Audience 42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CageyH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2022 at 9:34pm
I have seen the IFI one, and don’t know what is inside it.
This seems to be the Audiolab one - 

Not much in it for £100. A bridge rectifier, and a few caps. Oh, and the certification of a product, and the Audiolab marketing costs.
I think I can build two for less that, based on the ATL HiFi PCBs.
Kevin
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Funkified SL1200 Mk.II, BB3, Firebottle Kin , ADI-2 DAC FS, Modulus 686, PD-S703, Solo UL, Triangle Antal EZ
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fatmangolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2022 at 9:37pm
If it works and is safe for you, happy listening.
Jon

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2022 at 8:35am
I can assure you that "DC on the mains" is not DC, although it is possible to measure it as such.

Toroidal grumbling is due to the transformer's large inrush current as it has to adjust to the received waveform's sudden changes in shape.

The cause of this change is often found close to home or in the home. It is a "recent phenomenon" due to energy-efficiency of other mains powered equipment.

It is the firing of thyristors in energy-efficient products and one example is the automatic washing machine. If only one half cycle is used, the energy consumed is lower than if the whole cycle is used. It has been noted elsewhere (an electrical engineers forum) that even a half-speed hair dryer is capable of causing a change in mains waveform.

Obviously it also depends on the mains wiring impedance, which must be such to allow the sudden "attenuation" to one side of the waveform. Even where an electrical installation has two separate supplies from the meter tails, this waveform change still happens. As such, it might be seen that the electric meter's "shunt resistance" might be all the impedance required. It should then follow that the source of "interference" must be inboard of the electricity meter.

How this energy-efficiency affects a toroidal transformer is shown by monitoring its magnetising current. During an event, one side of the magnetising current waveform "disappears" while the other side "grows", and after the event, it returns to be equal for each half cycle.

The reason this happens to a toroidal transformer and seldom to any other type, is because toroidal transformers have much lower magnetising current. It can range from units of milliamps, to a few tens of milliamps (about 30mA).

Unless the transformer has primary taps to which it is optimised to the local mains, the manufacturer must be careful to ensure it doesn't reach saturation at the highest envisaged supply voltage.

The universal 230V EU voltage can have a spread between 207V and 254V.

To prevent saturation at 254V the magnetising current at 207V will be only just sufficient, and might be in the order of 5mA or lower.

Therefore it is possible that use on a continental 220V supply might result in a worsening of the noise.

The rectifier "DC filter" might work to reduce or stop the noise, but doesn't always work. Whether the large can electrolytic capacitors have any effect is debatable. As they are supposed to let AC pass unhindered, and the problem is the AC waveform, then all the rectifier does is drop the voltage by a volt.

One large American professional amplifier manufacturer simply used a bridge rectifier without the capacitors. I tried it and it seemed to do much the same. I note that the later models of the amplifiers no longer use them.

You can find more on this subject at https://sound-au.com/articles/xfmr-dc.htm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CageyH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2022 at 8:49am
Thanks Graham.

The transformers were wound to my local voltage.

I am sure it is my heat pump causing the issue, so I put a DC blocker in place yesterday evening (using a 600V 10A bridge rectifier and a couple of 4700uF capacitors) to test, and the hum is gone. I have no issue in the summer, so it ties in that the efficient heat pump is causing the issues by putting all sorts of noise on my mains.

Based on this, I will be building a suitable DC Blocker to fit inside my amplifier, as it will be a neater solution than another external box. I have space in the case for something suitable.
Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.
Funkified SL1200 Mk.II, BB3, Firebottle Kin , ADI-2 DAC FS, Modulus 686, PD-S703, Solo UL, Triangle Antal EZ
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CageyH View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CageyH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 2022 at 11:04am
I have ordered the bits to make my Dc blocker that will fit inside my amplifier.
I have the PCB on the way from Sweden, and the diodes and capacitors on the way from the States.
Finding somewhere with the diodes and capacitors in stock was a challenge for the parts I wanted.

Total cost is about €90 for the parts, but you could do this cheaper. I have gone big on this, probably too big, but this is what the PCB was built for. It has 16 diodes, and 6 capacitors. Apparently, it works well on large toroidal transformers.

It should not take long to solder up, but will take a little longer to fit to the amplifier, as I may have to redo the wiring to fit it in the case.

I will post more when it is complete.
Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.
Funkified SL1200 Mk.II, BB3, Firebottle Kin , ADI-2 DAC FS, Modulus 686, PD-S703, Solo UL, Triangle Antal EZ
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