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cartridge match advice

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patientot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2024 at 1:49pm
Originally posted by HiFiForMetal HiFiForMetal wrote:

Yes that is the tone arm, the satisfy carbon 
It’s the main one that comes with the concept air, 
Other than the tracer which is more expensive.
 

I appreciate your feedback, I know Prima Facia 
Evidence seems like the clearaudio cart is just a rebadge 

If you watch Michael Fremer or pursuit perfect systems factory
Tour they show them doing coil winding at clearaudio they do make LOMC carts with original parts, like the Goldfinger. 
As far as what’s inside them maybe it’s to hide proprietary methods of modding, maybe it’s that they are just taking these carts modding the exterior and doing very exacting matching, or 
Just rebadging and rehousing them I don’t know. I’m not fond of AT carts except their LOHC and I’ve been told by people their carts do in fact sound different than ATs, but I digress. 

As for excel and Sumiko my guess is Sumiko is also designing carts as well I don’t think the Hana stuff and Sumiko carts sound the same, I don’t like Hana carts till you get to the umami blue or even red. At which point I would probably buy a gold ring ethos anyway, that cart is sort of my end goal.

Thanks for your input I will go with the blue point iii
And hopefully the new one has improved a bit since the 
Evo iii version

All the best…cheers.



As I said coils have to be hand wound usually on LOMC carts. That can be done in house or by a third party OEM depending on the specific product we are talking about.

When a manufacturer works with an OEM, they typically have a "menu of options" they can work from but often the selection off that menu often doesn't justify the heavy markup in my view. Witholding basic technical info is usually a red flag.

Pick and mix off a menu is certainly a long way off designing a cartridge from scratch. Very few companies do the latter.
SL-1200 MK7 (modified) + Reflex M + PSU-1 used with AT150-40ML, AT VM610 MONO, AT VM95ML, Stanton 680mkII + Ogura, and Shure M35X cartridges.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HiFiForMetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2024 at 2:12pm

I don’t know if magnet winding machines 
Are hard for them to get, or maybe they 
Are just doing a great matching and resonance 
Modding job. I don’t know it would be worth a call
To them to find out.

 I agree with you there a different level levels
To design work, some companies manufacture their own 
Speaker drivers and are able to engineer bespoke parts 
Because they are vertically integrated, the best of all 
Worlds. No doubt but not possible for every manufacturer 
Wilson audio uses scanspeak drivers which I find rather plain
however I do think they make a great product, not one 
I would buy, but I have heard them sound good. It’s because of 
The surrounding execution that makes it great.

Not all companies have the means of production and tooling to 
Be vertically integrated like that. I respect both approaches immensely. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patientot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2024 at 2:37pm
Originally posted by HiFiForMetal HiFiForMetal wrote:


I don’t know if magnet winding machines 
Are hard for them to get, or maybe they 
Are just doing a great matching and resonance 
Modding job. I don’t know it would be worth a call
To them to find out.

 I agree with you there a different level levels
To design work, some companies manufacture their own 
Speaker drivers and are able to engineer bespoke parts 
Because they are vertically integrated, the best of all 
Worlds. No doubt but not possible for every manufacturer 
Wilson audio uses scanspeak drivers which I find rather plain
however I do think they make a great product, not one 
I would buy, but I have heard them sound good. It’s because of 
The surrounding execution that makes it great.

Not all companies have the means of production and tooling to 
Be vertically integrated like that. I respect both approaches immensely. 




You can see how automated coil winding works in the link below. This is done for high output MM and MI carts in any factory making things at scale. Doing that many winds of coil by hand manually, with no machine involved would be stupidly inefficient. Machines have been involved for decades now.

In the same link, you can see LOMC carts with the coils being wound by hand under a microscope.


Almost no cart company, even the largest ones, make their own diamonds and cantilever assemblies. Those typically come from Fritz Gyger AG, Orbray (formerly Namiki), and Ogura. Expert Stylus also makes a smaller amount of diamonds and Nagaoka produces some as well. If you don't believe me you can ask someone that works on carts for a living or visit the websites of the above companies and then look at their patent documents. It is also possible to purchase loose diamonds with no cantilever but few companies do that.

I have no problem with companies sourcing parts from third parties. Most will be forced to on some level. What I have a problem with are bunk marketing claims, withholding basic information, and wild markups relative to value.



Edited by patientot - 26 Sep 2024 at 2:38pm
SL-1200 MK7 (modified) + Reflex M + PSU-1 used with AT150-40ML, AT VM610 MONO, AT VM95ML, Stanton 680mkII + Ogura, and Shure M35X cartridges.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HiFiForMetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2024 at 8:59pm

I agree with you, bunk mark ups are bad
It’s the last thing high end audio needs, 
There are already too many accusations 
Of this in other sectors like in cables. 

I’m just saying that I don’t always rush to judgment 
I don’t know what’s inside nor have I done an 
ABX shootout with a VM95 type. I personally 
Think based on guitar pickup manufacturers or small 
Scale producers like Grado who are doing 
MM winding of coils it is possible, just watch Steve 
Guttenberg’s tour of Grado they show that they are 
Winding their own coils and Grado has less machinery to do 
So than clear audio by far, they are using the same winding 
Machines that guitar pickups use.

In this factory tour of Clearaudio he points out the MM
Coil winding machine which is automatic. 


It’s at 37:50

So I think we are in the case of a hybrid design 
Maybe they use AT bobbins or Sylii, but probably the 
Coils and compliant suspension,  dampening materials
And case are theirs. This is my guess.

But I agree their is too much stuff that should be 
More transparent and or not marked up. 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patientot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2024 at 9:16pm
Originally posted by HiFiForMetal HiFiForMetal wrote:


I agree with you, bunk mark ups are bad
It’s the last thing high end audio needs, 
There are already too many accusations 
Of this in other sectors like in cables. 

I’m just saying that I don’t always rush to judgment 
I don’t know what’s inside nor have I done an 
ABX shootout with a VM95 type. I personally 
Think based on guitar pickup manufacturers or small 
Scale producers like Grado who are doing 
MM winding of coils it is possible, just watch Steve 
Guttenberg’s tour of Grado they show that they are 
Winding their own coils and Grado has less machinery to do 
So than clear audio by far, they are using the same winding 
Machines that guitar pickups use.

In this factory tour of Clearaudio he points out the MM
Coil winding machine which is automatic. 


It’s at 37:50

So I think we are in the case of a hybrid design 
Maybe they use AT bobbins or Sylii, but probably the 
Coils and compliant suspension,  dampening materials
And case are theirs. This is my guess.

But I agree their is too much stuff that should be 
More transparent and or not marked up. 






Notice how they focus on the machine only for a few seconds and don't really go into much detail. Personally I'm very skeptical that every CA MM is wound on that.

AT 95 and VM95 styli are also a perfect fit on many of their MM carts, though some do require trimming plastic off the stylus housing. This can be done with a nail clipper or X-acto knife, though I'm sure CA doesn't want people to know that. Instead they tell users the stylus is not replaceable at all and that you must buy a whole new cartridge.

It was exposed years ago with pictures so I have no doubt that several of their carts are based on AT 95 series generators of some sort. What's even funnier is that the diamond they put on the lower end models is a very cheap bonded stone as I said, and some CA users that received CA MM carts with their turntables noted that their carts tracked better with a new nude stylus or advanced tip from AT rather than the stock one. Put the stock one under a microscope and you'll see it is cheap stuff. Even a 30X loupe will show the bonded shank on those. If they were up front they would just say what the major and minor radii of the stone were and whether they are bonded or nude. But they don't do that...gee I wonder why.

As for Grado they are a small company and don't have the same economies of scale as bigger companies like AT and Ortofon. They will still use a machine of some sort to aid in winding...just as many "hand wound" guitar pickups are wound on a rig that uses a sewing machine or some other device to wind things much more quickly then wrapping everything 100% by hand.

Anyway I've made my point so no more posts from me on this topic.
SL-1200 MK7 (modified) + Reflex M + PSU-1 used with AT150-40ML, AT VM610 MONO, AT VM95ML, Stanton 680mkII + Ogura, and Shure M35X cartridges.
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