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When should we expect a GSP DAC?

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Humboldt View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Humboldt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 2012 at 10:43pm
Originally posted by DrHouse DrHouse wrote:

Is there any chance whilst it's still in a development phase of considering asynchronous USB that supports 24 bit? Most recent DACs are supporting this and pc listening is the way to go. Also, it would be great to have it a similar design as the UL. Nothing better than a matching amp/ DAC set up!

PC listening has some benefits, but not all like it. Me myself is in a process of putting all my CD:s on a hard disc server as flac-files and playing them trough a PC with a Linux MPD-system. I have not however found so-called Hi-res files to be sounding any better than ordinary CD:s. And for what I have learnt from reading there is no piont at all buying Hi-res files. They just demand moore space, and acctually can degrade sound quality because of intermodulation. Now, I am not an audio engineer, so I am just refering to what I have read, but my ears can´t hear any better sounding audio from Hi-Res files.


Edited by Humboldt - 04 Nov 2012 at 11:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 2012 at 8:02am
Here's some of my thoughts on hi-res.

I have Eagles/Hell Freezes Over 44.1kHz/16 bit and through USB it sounds good, but via S/PDIF from a sound card, it sounds slightly better. The track you'll mostly hear at hi-fi shows and maybe at the dealers shop is Hotel California to show off the bass percussion at the beginning - this is deeper via S/PDIF (coax) than USB. Also some of the audience noise is more real via S/PDIF.

But it's 44.1kHz/16 bit in both cases!

I've also membership of the B&W society of sound where I can download some 44.1kHz and 48kHz 24 bit music. Cannot do A/Bs because they don't do re-releases (this being the UK which doesn't allow us to have what people in other countries can have - Russia has probably more freedom).

Bearing in mind the above, I find it hard to tell any difference between 16 bit and 24 bit.

I managed to obtain Steely Dan/Gaucho and Bob Marley/Legend from a German site. These are 96kHz/24 bit. Playing them into the little USB streamer I built and into the DAC via S/PDIF coax from the sound card I can have either 48kHz/16 bit which the streamer "knocks" it down to, or 96kHz/24 bit which the Wolfson chip set of the DAC does self adjusts to.

There is a little difference but it's hard to pin down. Perhaps it's because of all my years listening to vinyl?

Both resolutions sound good to me. I find myself quite happy using the USB streamer which takes any input resolution and changes it to 44.1 or 48kHz at 16 bit.

As I've commented numerous times but nobody seems to latch on to what I'm saying: 24 bit isn't 24 bits of music. It is 20 bits of music because 4 bits are reserved for other information.

The difference between 16 bit and 24 bit is 4 bits! (not 8)

The difference is -96dB noise floor with 16 bit and -120dB noise floor with 24 bit (20 bit in reality).

The -120dB noise floor proves 24 bit is actually 20 bit audio.

How easy is it listening for noise whilst music is playing? Can anybody hear -96dB whilst at the same time listening to 0dB peaks? 96dB is the ratio 63,095:1.

120dB is the ratio 1,000,000:1 (one million to one). If you are able to hear that noise floor in-between notes that can reach the 0dB peak then "there's a guy works down the fish shop swears he's Elvis..."

The resolution in real terms at the musical instrument/voice volumes you're listening to is absolutely no different whether 24 bit or 16 bit.

But maybe Far East specmanship has you hooked? They're good marketeers!

There are differences between how one chip set replicates the same bit rate over another chip set, but if you can tell the bit rate without looking at the on-screen data I'll have to call you Elvis... Wink

Sampling frequencies are a different matter, but with careful filtering 44.1/48kHz and 88.2/96kHz can be hard to tell apart, and 176.4/192kHz even harder.

I'll leave you all with this thought: If you can't make it sound right you can always rely on boasting great specifications to get people to buy...

Did that psychology work when you bought your phono stage? Or headphone amp?
That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Humboldt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 2012 at 12:48pm
Originally posted by Graham Slee Graham Slee wrote:

Here's some of my thoughts on hi-res.

I have Eagles/Hell Freezes Over 44.1kHz/16 bit and through USB it sounds good, but via S/PDIF from a sound card, it sounds slightly better. The track you'll mostly hear at hi-fi shows and maybe at the dealers shop is Hotel California to show off the bass percussion at the beginning - this is deeper via S/PDIF (coax) than USB. Also some of the audience noise is more real via S/PDIF.

But it's 44.1kHz/16 bit in both cases!

I also think S/PDIF can be slightly better sounding than USB, but it depends on the hardware. I have a SONOS system which I use for internet radio and Spotify, but I can also play networked FLAC-files through the SONO into my DAC. In that case I bypas the SONO´s own DAC, and connect it to my external dac with S/PDIF. However - this do NOT sound as good as if I play FLAC-files in my PC and put them on the DAC through a USB connection. On the other hand, audio over USB comes with jitter, so the USB needs a DAC that handle the jitter thing. I guess S/PDIF in general is less prone to jitter, and this might explain why S/PDIF sound better.

Some people are very convinced Hi-Res files sound better than ordinary 16/44,1, but there seems to be to many variables that are not controlled for. I have both a Hi-Res 24/96 version of John Coltranes "A Love Supreme" and a normal CD version. And the Hi-Res version sound different compared to the CD version - no doubt about that - but better? I think what I hear is a different mastered version. The timbre, the tone, is very much the same, but the balance between instruments are not. So my point is, it is not possible to make any conclusions about Hi-Res files and 16/44,1 if the source is not the same, i e the master.

All listening test I have read about, i.e. tests according to scientific criteries, have come to the same conclusion. People can NOT discriminate between 16/44.1 and Hi-Res audio.

Edited by Humboldt - 05 Nov 2012 at 3:57pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackinBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 2012 at 3:14pm
Originally posted by Humboldt Humboldt wrote:




I have both a Hi-Res 24/96 version of John Coltranes "A Love Supreme" and a normal CD version. And the Hi-Res version sound different compared to the CD version - no doubt about that - but better? I think what I hear is a different mastered version. The timbre, the tone, is very much the same, but the balance between instruments are not. So my point is, it is not possible to make any concusions about Hi-Res files and 16/44,1 if the source is not the same, i e the master.



Humboldt,
I think that you are getting to the heart of the matter here, in that most of the apparent differences are probably due to the mastering process, even for our beloved vinyl, remastered reissues can sound very different to the original pressings.
It is my opinion that current mastering and engineering techniques are very often quite poor in that they try to make the sound attractive to those using mediocre playback systems. Dynamic range seems to be sacrificed to satisfy those who constantly have an mp3 player plugged into their ears, so that the quieter passages can still be heard above the extraneous noise.
However, the future of recorded music is undoubtedly going to be digital. We must therefore develop the best equipment to be able to enjoy the digital medium. In time, I also think that good engineering and mastering will win through; at 16bit/44kHz good sound can be achieved, higher bit rates and sampling frequencies will also improve the achievable quality, but as always the law of diminishing returns will apply.
So, for now, we have to make the best of what we have. In the near future the GSP DACs should, I trust, make the experience of what we have somewhat better.

Edited by BackinBlack - 05 Nov 2012 at 3:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 2012 at 4:55pm
Jitter exists in both (USB or S/PDIF) and is the "short jumpy bits" which cannot decode properly, and where it stuffs in replacement bits whilst it receives the next data.

But in the case of USB it is worse because the packets are asynchronous which is OK for printer data and so on, but audio data, being received in these "fits and starts" requires greater on chip memory than a phase locked loop. You need a FIFO or first in first out buffer as well as there being "end points" to track and ditch, some of them not related to audio such as USB licensing information... the USB chip has a lot of sorting and sifting to do.

Knowing this, the design engineer (the sane ones at least) will always be muttering under their breath, things like "don't people realise how stupid USB audio is" or worse. But one chip manufacturer has nailed it, and the results are pretty OK, and I'm listening more using USB now, which ten years ago I, and many who know me, would have thought an impossibility.

As the vinyl "brigade" have been heading down the wrong path for more than 50 years, and it's too late to do an about-turn, then I have to agree that digital is the future of music replay. They had it all - they didn't know it - they screwed-up! Arrogance prevents/prevented them putting it right.

Luckily for me I'm not too old, or still agile in the brain (I have to keep up with vast quantities of fish oil...Wink) and have been able to make the switch. If the truth were to be known, my time in industrial electronics was all about digital or logic, so it isn't such a giant step into digital audio. But, there is a problem in that digital audio is heading down the same silly path as vinyl did, and will one day find the same blind alley, and won't have a paddle to get itself out of there.

Already the chip manufacturers are concentrating on quantity instead of quality, and when it's gone - it's gone! But they can't be blamed - their jockeys are riding them hard and not sparing the whip (jockey = investor).

The current output DAC is gone for good - it's all voltage now. The chances of getting it off chip without "corruption" is gone already, but the number of designers who'd understand the difference are few - it's all child-designers now!

Children have this great way of getting it all their own way, and in this respect they make great sales people... they use specmanship to make up for their almost complete lack of knowledge.

Reminds me of "Supper's Ready" by Genesis...

I'd better shut up now...

(Qualification for the last two full paragraphs: Under communist rule music was banned in China and the entire era of the record player and early days of CD was unheard of. China has around 20 years of learning so far. Source of this information: my Chinese distributor. The same goes for most other East Asian countries apart from Japan, yet the West places its technological trust in "learner drivers" )


Edited by Graham Slee - 05 Nov 2012 at 5:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BackinBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 2012 at 5:23pm
graham
'Tis the way now, progress for the sake of progress, not necessarily improvement.
As a (recently retired) Civil Engineer, specialising in Tunnelling equipment, I have seen the inevitable march of progress, which more recently has seen the application of processes and analysis because we can, not because we need to. Consequently the Industry is losing sight of its purpose (building tunnels) and instead concentrating on employing an army of analysts, advisors and consultants who contribute nothing to the end product, but add significantly to the cost and time.
It seems that many Industries go down this path, some realise the mistake sooner rather than later, lets hope the music industry and associated electronics manufacturers realise they are going down the wrong path soon. But from your observations I doubt it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fatmangolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 2012 at 9:13pm
Agreed about "progress" and perhaps developmental dead ends. A couple of comments to add to the wise words above:
 
The audible dynamic range will be limited by the ambient noise in the listening room, probably 40dB or more, so the volume would need to be painfully loud to make 80 even 90dB of dynamic range. Especially with the compression used to even out peaks and quiet passages on almost any recording.
 
The filtering of the DAC is going to make a huge difference on the coherence of any complex sound being played back and the "ringing" produced by many of the anti-aliasing filters. I am eager to hear Graham's DAC filter which I expect to be as revelatory to digital music as the ultralinear Reflex is to vinyl.
 
Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.
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