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Tone Controls: A topic about tone controls

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Fatmangolf View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fatmangolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2010 at 8:27pm
I agree with the other Jon, how many of us are really running a truly flat system?
 
Occasional use of EQ can make music more listenable. Just think of a muddled mix, or a dull sound lacking HF detail, or boomy bass than distracts from the rest of the instruments. Sometimes EQ may be quite helpful (I am a little nervous about writing this on a hi-fi forum and thinking about Graham's post of the Wicker Man photo as below).
But I shall go on. Slight HF cut with EQ is a quick fix for the "CD sound-a-like" trebly records of the '80's, although it won't make the midrange sound natural. It is a way to crudely adjust for non-RIAA pre-emphasis if you haven't got a Revelation. It can warm up a thin record lacking bass or brighten a dull mix.
 
Generally I can see 2 options:
  1. Well designed shelving EQ with good parts, including an off switch on the EQ
  2. Avoiding badly mixed and mastered records
Option 2 may limit your access to popular music and actually a fair bit of 60's and 70's Rock. Option 1 will allow you to listen to a couple of tracks, more if you can accept the warts and all. That is the subjective case for occasional use of EQ to fix sources.
 
Listening to real speakers in in real rooms means making some compromises. If the room were anechoic (no ambience or reverb from walls, ceiling, floor, or furniture) we would only hear the direct sound of the speakers, the ultimate version of being in the "nearfield." However, most of what we hear is a mix of direct sound from speakers, the early reflections from surfaces close to them, and longer delayed reflections that give the room reverb including its nodes and ringing. The sound we hear is not pure energy from the driver and enclosure, there is a complex system of room acoustics to consider. And your ears. Maybe making all that "flat" or simply personally acceptable justifies some EQ or room correction with physical treatment with soft furnishings/absorber panels or bass traps, or a sort of fix by DSP.
 
So headphones are a great fix because they eliminate the room. But they also eliminate the crosstalk between the ears, the natural delays and subtle filtering effects of sound going round the head, the outer ears, etc.
 
So how close can we really get to a straight wire with gain?
 
Jon (hearing the rustle of straw or wicker coming towards him)
 
 


Edited by Fatmangolf - 11 Sep 2010 at 8:41pm
Jon

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2010 at 1:35pm
Originally posted by Fatmangolf Fatmangolf wrote:

But I shall go on. Slight HF cut with EQ is a quick fix for the "CD sound-a-like" trebly records of the '80's, although it won't make the midrange sound natural.

Yeah, shelved up to suit el-cheapo crystal and ceramic cartridges as fitted to "stacking lo-fi".

The crystal/ceramic playback slope turns over at 500Hz dropping 12dB to just above 2kHz where it shelves (continues on flat).

I'd guess they took a mean, turning over somewhere between 500Hz and 1kHz and shelving at +6dB.

I must admit to starting to develop bass and treble tone controls already. Not too much boost and cut (around ±10dB) and taking a look at the curve getting on for 3/4 treble cut, it's not far out from the above.

I think the audio pagans would have to build a very large wicker man to house us all...Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2010 at 2:06pm
Originally posted by tg tg wrote:

...I would suspect that tone controls were initially fitted as a sales gimmick and to cover the limitations of less than "hi fidelity" amplifiers and speakers.


Not far off base: tone controls were a necessity to play records (which is all we had back then*) before RIAA "standardisation". The first tone controls by Michael Volkoff in 1939, then E. J. James in Wireless World in 1949 and then P. J. Baxendall in Wireless World in 1952 - going on information found so far.

* OK, there was tape but with few users compared to records.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2010 at 4:10pm
Here's the boost/cut plot of what I'm currently working on...



The blue "centre line" is with the controls parked at their mid points and the grey "centre line" is in cancel. In my opinion the parked controls give a better cancel but that all depends on exact line up in construction.

The high frequency roll-offs of each curve show perfect stability at 20dB/decade.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jonclancy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2010 at 2:08pm
Originally posted by Fatmangolf Fatmangolf wrote:

I agree with the other Jon, how many of us are really running a truly flat system?

SNIP

So how close can we really get to a straight wire with gain?
 


Not that many, I suspect.  But how close do we want to go (really, really close, because we like the idea of that) and opposed to how close do we NEED to go to a wire with gain.

There is, as I mentioned before, no accounting for differing tastes (or ears!) in a piece of gear with no correction available.  Is that why we end up tweaking so much......

Jon


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tg [RIP] Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2010 at 4:24pm

Quote But how close do we want to go (really, really close, because we like the idea of that) and opposed to how close do we NEED to go to a wire with gain.................Is that why we end up tweaking so much......

I think you are close to the heart of the matter here Jon, but I think it goes much further than mere tone controls or equalisation.

There are certainly situations and source materials which mandate their use in some form or other.

I think what we all are looking for is to recreate the musical event in such a manner as to allow our full participation therein - to feel the music if you will, to have the emotions conveyed to us.

What is needed for this to happen is for the audio illusion to have no "non-seqiturs" that impinge upon our consciousness and suspend our belief, an absence of ear jarring inconsistencies rather than absolute adherence to the truth of the source.

What this audio illusion will sound like will presumably vary from person to person - when my system "does it right" -  I could not care less about accuracy, flat response or any of the other "hi-fi" criteria - I just want to play more music.

When it is not doing that, then I tweak and swap things and wonder about upgrades, get fidgety, swap discs and try to recover "the magic", when it does I know.

Some tweak because it is a hobby within a hobby, some for the sake of finding out if it can be made better and some looking for that "je ne sais quoi" that moves the whole into another dimension where the particulars of the audio illusion are subsidiary to immersion in the musical event.

If correction/EQ is necessary to get you to the end of the diving board, use them.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fatmangolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2010 at 6:47pm
Yes tg you are right that there are different reasons for trying new things out. I note the difference between tinkering and tweaking, these are only words but I would like to explore your point.
 
There's tinkering by which I mean experimentation for its own sake, trying an idea or testing a concept. Diverting and sometimes fruitful, even serendipitous.
 
Tweaking is about getting a bit closer to a personal ideal by refining something you like. I think we all want the sound to be right to our ears, and to be clearer and more natural. tg, I like your use of the word "immersion" because I am always looking for instruments to sound natural and to feel as if I am in the room where the sounds were/are being made. Yes it is the audio illusion of a recording sounding almost real.
 
Some tweaks to the sound bring a desired improvement but unpalatable side effects. I would put poor EQ in this category. Lets not touch graphic equalisers but stick to bass and treble. I don't want an extra bit of HF on a dull sounding if the treble control makes the HF harsh or less coherent with the rest of the music. Or wanting to add a little more bass to add some body but getting loose "one note bass" instead.
 
A great EQ would offer the subtle equalisation when needed without bringing audible artifacts. A totally transparent EQ would be hard but this is the place to come judging by my GSP Genera preamp. I am interested in a very well designed and executed bass and treble control. To have that EQ with some input switching and level matching in a simple well built preamp would be brilliant. In a very nice custom design extruded case from a world class hi-fi company in South Yorkshire. Please Santa.
 


Edited by Fatmangolf - 14 Sep 2010 at 7:56pm
Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.
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