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Signatures

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    Posted: 09 Feb 2008 at 9:49pm
Call me naive if you like, but I've still a lot to learn about hi-fi. What I do understand, is high fidelity!

For example the old Quad definition of a perfect amplifier as "being a piece of wire with gain", is a high fidelity definition.

Those in hi-fi scoff at such a definition as being ridiculous.

There is a difference between hi-fi and high fidelity!

Hi-fi is all about signatures!

At the same time as producing equipment with signatures - which means coloration, the hi-fi manufacturer claims his equipment does not suffer any coloration! This is pure hypocrisy.

On the other hand, true high fidelity is about removal of signatures - removal of colorations. It is the musical instrument or voice that has the colour - the signature. How can a piece of equipment faithfully reproduce the true colours and signatures of the music when it contributes some of its own?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tg [RIP] Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2008 at 2:09am
What brought that on?
Who has been getting up your nose now?

That might have been Quads definition but did they ever make such a thing?

My recollection of Quad gear was that it tended to make most things sound OK.

Accurate reproduction requires that crap recordings sound crap - is that what I want?

I'm not sure.

Sometimes I wonder if a music reproduction/replay system might not be considered more akin to a musical instrument in its own right.

Certain things then are agreed to be fundamental according to the class of the instrument in question, it must be tunable to produce certain notes and have the sound characteristic of that particular class of instrument.

After that, there will be many variations on construction, tonality, adjustments etc dependent on the manufacturer and the choice of a particular instrument by a musician will depend on his preferences, playing style etc.

Two identical instruments played by 2 competent musicians will sound similar but their rendition will vary with the individual style of the player and the moment.

Much of the recording process/chain is concerned with "adjusting" various aspects to fit whatever the criteria of the moment might happen to be in the mind of the person having most control over the production.

Is this not a "performance" of a performance?

Is it somehow wrong that I should choose a particular "style" of replay for myself, that, to my ear, best suits whatever music I prefer?

Am I thereby somehow betraying some pre-ordained code of high fidelity?

Am I now a "lost cause" or must I "keep the faith" and suffer recordings that I purchased because I liked the particular piece of music, to have all their shortcomings mercilessly exposed in the name of "truth".

Is it somehow wrong that a Steinway sounds different from a Yamaha? or that not all violins sound like a Stradivarius? That 2 different and respected conductors have such variant interpretations of the same piece?

Perhaps there is an unspoken recognisance that what there is no such thing as "perfect-fi" and that 95% fidelity is "high" in comparison with, say 75% fidelity.

On the question of "truth", I rather feel that the enquiry of Pontius Pilate "what is truth?" was not at all the simple cop out it is popularly painted as, but rather a very deep and searching, possibly even heart-felt, question, as relevant today as it was then.

I also recall reading a review of a very transparent and revealing amplifier in conjunction with very revealing speakers - the reviewer is known to you and has had nothing but good things to say of your products.
Whilst absolutely captivated by what this amplifier/speaker combination brought out in good recordings he ultimately decided that so much fidelity was not to his taste, due to its stark revelation of the inadequacies of many of his recordings, preferring the slight warming and glossing over afforded by his then choice of amplifier.

I suppose that what I am attempting to say, is that, whilst I do appreciate the results of your passion for excellence in the form of your most excellent phono stages and what they allow me to hear of the music recorded on my LPs, I would respectfully suggest that there are equally valid alternative views on the desirability of 100% fidelity to the source and that, in the greater scheme of things virtue is its own reward.

There are many paths up the mountain but we all look at the same moon.

shalom


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 2008 at 2:12am
Originally posted by tg tg wrote:

What brought that on?
Who has been getting up your nose now?

That might have been Quads definition but did they ever make such a thing?


What I meant was I agreed with the definition but not the results - they went on to do current dumping which had a massive signature disliked by many.

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Accurate reproduction requires that crap recordings sound crap - is that what I want?


It doesn't have to be that way. I believe we don't have a signature (as in coloration), but we make crap recordings or crap pressings (or being polite I should say under par) sound acceptable - I've plenty but enjoy listening to most on the gear I design.

As for audiovile pressings - well, I could have warned people off them, but they don't listen to the likes of me. I was once given a pile of very famous name audiovile pressings in exchange for a phono stage and after placing them in the bottom of my garbage bin I realised what constituted a crap recording...

Quote
Sometimes I wonder if a music reproduction/replay system might not be considered more akin to a musical instrument in its own right.


If that's the case it's due to boredom IMO. I prefer listening to the music as intended (or as close as possible), and not trying to add my own style, but I'm no musician...

Quote
Certain things then are agreed to be fundamental according to the class of the instrument in question, it must be tunable to produce certain notes and have the sound characteristic of that particular class of instrument.

After that, there will be many variations on construction, tonality, adjustments etc dependent on the manufacturer and the choice of a particular instrument by a musician will depend on his preferences, playing style etc.

Two identical instruments played by 2 competent musicians will sound similar but their rendition will vary with the individual style of the player and the moment.


Exactly: The equipment must therefore be capable of revealing these individual styles, but signatures can hide them.

Quote
Much of the recording process/chain is concerned with "adjusting" various aspects to fit whatever the criteria of the moment might happen to be in the mind of the person having most control over the production.

Is this not a "performance" of a performance?


Agreed: It is artistic license in some respects but essentially with the musicians consent. If you're not sure what I mean by this please read Great Sounding Records by Kevin Gray

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Is it somehow wrong that I should choose a particular "style" of replay for myself, that, to my ear, best suits whatever music I prefer?

Am I thereby somehow betraying some pre-ordained code of high fidelity?

Am I now a "lost cause" or must I "keep the faith" and suffer recordings that I purchased because I liked the particular piece of music, to have all their shortcomings mercilessly exposed in the name of "truth".

Is it somehow wrong that a Steinway sounds different from a Yamaha? or that not all violins sound like a Stradivarius? That 2 different and respected conductors have such variant interpretations of the same piece?


If that's the way you like it, then who am I to tell you it's wrong? I was just stating my own opinion which is behind the way I design.

Quote
Perhaps there is an unspoken recognisance that what there is no such thing as "perfect-fi" and that 95% fidelity is "high" in comparison with, say 75% fidelity.

On the question of "truth", I rather feel that the enquiry of Pontius Pilate "what is truth?" was not at all the simple cop out it is popularly painted as, but rather a very deep and searching, possibly even heart-felt, question, as relevant today as it was then.


Very deep and searching agreed, but for the purpose of fitting his own doctrines I think you will find.

I'd just like you and anybody else reading this to know that I'm not trying to force my beliefs or views on anybody, but I'm just stating what I believe is the difference between hi-fi and high fidelity, and that I feel that the adoption of hi-fi's signatures leaves many without a reference or starting point to work from. Like a tree without roots it'll become dead wood IMO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ServerBaboon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 2008 at 5:26pm
Originally posted by Graham Slee Graham Slee wrote:



It doesn't have to be that way. I believe we don't have a signature (as in coloration), but we make crap recordings or crap pressings (or being polite I should say under par) sound acceptable - I've plenty but enjoy listening to most on the gear I design.

As for audiovile pressings - well, I could have warned people off them, but they don't listen to the likes of me. I was once given a pile of very famous name audiovile pressings in exchange for a phono stage and after placing them in the bottom of my garbage bin I realised what constituted a crap recording...



What do you mean?

Are you talking about the Audiovile recordings or bland music or reissues? I have a reissue of Peter Gabriel 2 that sounds better than my freinds original.

What are your objection?

Are you as it was first done guy, or are you commenting on the current trend to reissue stuff louder and more compressed?


Edited by ServerBaboon - 11 Feb 2008 at 5:27pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 2008 at 7:27pm
Originally posted by ServerBaboon ServerBaboon wrote:


Are you talking about the Audiovile recordings or bland music or reissues? I have a reissue of Peter Gabriel 2 that sounds better than my freinds original.

What are your objection?


Audiovile = bland music regardless of whether it is new or reissued IMO.

As for the NAME of these pressings, it would not be professional of me to NAME them, but they're a division of an equipment manufacturer.

I have a remastered Peter Gabriel too ("So"), and although it is quite good, it is also quite apparent that the mastering engineer wasn't conversant with the mechanisms of vinyl. As I mentioned above regarding Kevin Grays article on Great Sounding Records, there has to be some artistic license in the mastering suite or things don't fit - in the case of "So" it is the sibilance.

However, making the performance fit the medium doesn't constitute giving it a signature - a signature is a coloration which is a distortion that is added, whereas making the finale of a LP side fit the limits of the inner groove is a selective reduction in level.

Next question please?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ServerBaboon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 2008 at 10:16pm
Is this signature why you don't seem to have any inclination for Valves? I must admit to having a fondness for valve distortion, not enough to buy one but enough to enter HiFi Choices latest competition.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sceptre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2008 at 12:23am
I don't mind signatures as long as I can control them.

If it's sunny, I'll put on sunglasses.  Whether they are brown, grey, pink or yellow is my choice.  I may also choose to have my eyesight improved with optical lenses to make things look the way they were before my own eyes applied their own signature.

This example shows that we may sometimes choose a signature, but we may also choose to have none.  And that is the hard bit.  How do we match something that we could never decide upon?  When we both see a grass field do we both see the same colours?

I like to know that I can make changes but I also want to remove them at will.

Here is to an amp that really can add signatures to order.  Press button for each effect you choose.  The mass market has loved the DSP toggles of 'Theatre' 'Drain' "Night Club' but to those that listen closely are put off by hearing the mechanics of the effect.  We need a few magnitudes of computing power to manage and control the required believable effects.

Trouble is, once you have that, you will need nothing more than a wire with no gain to reproduce it accurately!

I believe the next 10 years will have an electrical interface to the auditory canal (or more importantly to the nerves on the canal).  When we get close to that we will have the chance of removing many of the elements that have a signature (like the shape of yours and my ear!)

We will still need to decide on whose cables to connect our brains with though! Gain will only be an extra micro volt though.  Don't over do it!

Tongue in cheek
Sceptre


PS - are these the conversations you were anticipating Graham?
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