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Hybrid systems (valve and solid-state)

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Analog Kid View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Analog Kid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2008 at 6:19am
As for my original question: so you would not recommend combining a solid-state preamp with a valve poweramp (or vice versa: valve pre with S.S. power)? Is there anything inherently wrong in combining the two types of amplification in a hybrid system?

The only advice on this matter I was able to find is the following:


"If different makes of pre- and power amplifier are being considered it may become necessary to compare the output impedance of the preamplifier and the input impedance of the power amplifier. Generally for full frequency response it is advisable to match component impedances with a look-up factor of at least 200.

This is not to say that the components would not work together. The audio industry does have open architecture and a common interface between components. However what can happen with disparate impedances is that there could be substantial frequency response roll-off between the two components, particularly in the low frequency bass region. This is only potentially a problem when considering a valve preamplifier to drive a solid state amplifier, as many valve preamplifiers have very high output impedances, (designed to drive high input impedance tube power amplifiers) and most solid state amplifiers have low input impedances. Sometimes a high output impedance preamplifier can be very sensitive to the capacitance of the interconnect cable, which tends to roll off the high frequencies also.

The combination of valve front end for voltage amplification and a solid state power amplifier for current demands can work very well in delivering the best that both technologies have to offer. This is provided the preamplifier is designed to drive the lower input impedance that solid state amplifiers typically present to the preamplifier."



Edited by Analog Kid - 18 Nov 2008 at 6:21am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Analog Kid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2008 at 8:02pm
I will try to answer the question myself and then someone can tell me if I am WRITE or RONG:

Solid-state preamps have low output impedance whereas valve poweramps have high input impedance (meant to be paired with high impedance valve preamps) and this combination can lead to frequency response abnormalities, yes?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tg [RIP] Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2008 at 4:26am

AK, I am not an EE either, but from what I have read and seen discussed in various places:

Impedance mismatching MAY cause problems; the variation in input/output impedances of various manufacturers equipment (both valve and SS), is too great to provide a general answer.  

Some combinations may work brilliantly and others dismally or not at all.

Many people seem to use valve preamps with a combination of valve and SS amplifiers in systems utilising active crossovers and multi-amped speakers, the tendency is to use valve for the tweeters and mids with SS for the bass.

More people seem to use valve preamps with SS power amps than the reverse.

It is possible, by using an active buffer stage between components (like the Burson Audio Buffer) to lower the output impedance going forward to the next stage.

The sort of sound tailoring that you seem to be interested in obtaining (from your other comments and enquiries) might well be best achieved by programmable equalisers such as the Behringer Ultracurve DEQ 2496 (relatively inexpensive), the TaCT DSP or the DeqX system - the latter two are quite pricey but are primarily intended to provide active crossover and room equalisation abilities and, by all accounts, are extraordinarily effective.

In my understanding, a low output impedance driving a high input impedance is a good thing, a high output impedance driving a low input impedance is not - in very general terms.

Afterthoughts, I would expect a SS preamp to work better with a valve amp than the reverse.  Your previous quote actually covered most of that I think although some of it seemed, to me, more applicable to a valve preamp stage in a hybrid amplifier than to standalone separates.

One other aspect occurred to me, somewhat of a digression but related, perhaps Graham has thoughts on this.

That aspect was the notion that if equalisation is achieved in the digital realm (as per the equalisers mentioned) then the issues of "insertion loss" and phase anomaly are of no consequence, eg non-existent.

Those thoughts arose from the consideration that what we essentially have is a fixed gain device from which we wish to have a variable gain that is frequency related.  The only way to achieve this is to attenuate the complementary frequencies of the incoming given signal since we cannot add to that signal only take away from it.  If, however, the signal is digitised, it can be manipulated with impunity prior to reconversion to an analogue waveform.  Or so my thinking ran, simplistic ? - heretical, likely Wink

Does this digital "sleight of hand" obviate the "phase issues" Graham is outlining above ?

I would be interested in comment on that aspect.



Edited by tg - 23 Nov 2008 at 5:14am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2008 at 8:21am
Does phase only change in the analogue domain? Is digital magic?

Sorry!

Digital has to be turned back into analogue for us mere mortals to hear it (does a tree falling in a forest make a sound if nobody is there to hear it???)

From what we know: A first order or "natural" filter has a turnover point after which it falls at 6dB per octave (halves each octave). At the point of turnover it is -3dB and that is a level reduction of 0.707, which is also the sine (and cosine) of 45 degrees. And since we are talking of a waveform and all waveforms reduce to sinewaves (a fundamental part of digital audio signal processing principles) then, however the filter is implemented, its phase is 45 degrees different at that turnover frequency (works the same on boost).

The filter can be anything you like: a wall for example! If a wall starts to absorb below (usually it's below) a certain frequency, it will therefore have a turnover frequency and therefore it will cause phase shift.

While inside the digital domain there is no such thing as phase shift - it is only when it becomes analogue again that there is the phase shift exactly where it would have been if implemented in analogue - inescapably.

Each frequency function done in digital is modelled on analogue behaviour (a transform) otherwise it simply would not work.

We are inescapably tied into the infallible laws of the universe - we are mere mortals - everything we own is made from the dust beneath our feet (or the air surrounding us, or the rivers and oceans). Unfortunately there are several non EE hi-fi manufacturers who would have you believe otherwise - yes, regurgitating the designs done by sacked or redundant engineers, not really knowing what they are doing with those engineer's work. How would I know? My experience of being made redundant!!! My experience of working freelance!!! I daren't say anything else or a "magical barister" will destroy what's left of my life!!!

You (people in general) are free to believe what you like, whereas I'm NOT free to tell you the truth - only the part that is purely scientific, such is the deceit. The rest is up to you...
That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tg [RIP] Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2008 at 9:33am

Thank you for those thoughts.

I think that, indirectly, you have very adeptly illustrated the point that, like, I suspect, many, if not most, of your customers, I most often half understand, half of what you are saying, half of the time.

I am probably being generous to myself there Shocked

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyreg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2008 at 11:34am
I'll have to second that last reply of TG in general. Cry
But we still have fun, don't we? Big%20smile Han
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2008 at 4:33pm
And there's me just getting around to explaining the question on loading???

Dare I after that? Ermm
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