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Surface noise

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tg [RIP] View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tg [RIP] Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2008 at 9:54pm

Discussion I read on this issue mentioned that aspect, some had a groove guard and some not - noisy still.   IME changing VTA makes virtually no difference to noise level.

Since I would imagine intertrack crackling and similar background noise within tracks to be caused by micro irregularities in the groove walls (eg not nicely smooth) my surmise is that the stampers are either not capable or incorrectly set for this weight of material and are allowing insufficient time/heat for the vinyl to fully flow, resulting in a flawed surface.

Whatever, the problems with this weight from one or two US plants spread over quite a period of time (eg not a brief production glitch) indicating problems in production that had not been addressed.

Complaint to the store supplying and to the record label met with the expected response - none.  I doubt they are unaware of the problem, there was quite a thread on headfi amongst other places.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ServerBaboon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2008 at 11:14pm
I have a Peter Gabriel 3 on 200g which I don't remember being noisy but I will dig it out and give it a try again and report back
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2008 at 6:40am
Record surface noise is unavoidable but it can be subdued.

I have read how I do it on other forums and I'm quite impressed with the explanations.

They do carry merit in their weighty authority of how they explain my techniques.

Most of them are complete bullsh*t!

The real explanation is dead-simple!

Every amp configuration in existence has some high frequency point which it can't pass - it's transition frequency after which it can't amplify. In fact, transition frequency is where its gain has fallen to unity (1).

Driven further it goes into oscillation. But before it gets there, its output is going out of phase until it reaches the oscillation-guaranteed angle of 180 degrees.

A really stable amp - one that doesn't easily oscillate has a lot of phase margin at the frequency its ouput falls to unity (1).

A not too stable amp doesn't have that phase margin.

Surface noise (in this case clicks and pops) are fast rising and high in output which sends every amp into overload unless it's control loop (negative feedback) is fast enough to register. Even so, the overload forces a phase reversal!

That reversal has a transition "envelope"  - catch it before it reaches the other end of that "envelope" and it will not go the full 180 degrees, but there's little leeway.

But if the amp configuration doesn't have sufficient phase margin it doesn't take much to push it near enough to 180 degrees and oscillation! (emphasising little clicks as giant cracks!)

Therefore, make it a fast amp stage with a fast control loop and ensure plenty of phase margin and you should end up with a phono stage that doesn't go silly on clicks and pops.

Compare such a stage with others that do and you've found a way of subduing clicks and pops, comparatively speaking.

And that's how dead-simple I've been doing it since one night in 1999 sat at my kitchen table - nothing as elaborate as I've read about me elsewhere!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tg [RIP] Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2008 at 8:28am

Another interesting exposition Graham, it does sound like what I hear, a de-emphasis or softening of clicks - of course that does beg the question of differentiating response to surface imperfections from genuine musical fast rising transients, a problem commonly encountered in software de-clicking of needle-drop recordings.

Not that this is to be construed as a criticism of transient response in your phono stages, au contraire, I find them very good.

There is also to be considered, the varying characteristics of different cartridges, some are reported to be much more forgiving of surface noise than others.

@SB - guess I should enlarge a little, I have certainly heard of good 200 gm pressings, but what I have also heard (and experienced) is that most of the reported noisy re-issue pressings are on 200 gm.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2008 at 8:42am
Originally posted by tg tg wrote:

Another interesting exposition Graham, it does sound like what I hear, a de-emphasis or...



"a de-emphasis" - thanks tg! Clap

Now that is exactly what the people I was talking about above think I am doing (I realise you tg, are not thinking that - this is not against you). They therefore assume I am using some form of de-emphasis circuitry and then go on to damn such practice!

As I explained above, their theorising is complete bullsh*t!

I have used the opportunity this thread provides to answer their self-misguided minds and I hope they realise and decide to retract their harmful rantings? Angry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tg [RIP] Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2008 at 11:07am

OK - so let me recap - what you are describing is in fact a more accurate response which keeps the clicks in relative proportion rather than emphasising them and what "sounds like" a de-emphasis is rather a non-emphasis.

This does of course answer my query on the question of fast rising musical transients.

Not knowing the discussion to which you refer cannot offer anything there.

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