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Off-board balance solutions

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jeremyo View Drop Down
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    Posted: 10 Jun 2016 at 12:26pm
OK so here's another bright idea to betray my lack of understanding of electronics and acoustics (at least), but here goes.

As I mentioned in another thread, I have to live with a rather sub-optimal arrangement of my main system, which consists of various sources into Roksan Caspian M2 and PMC GB1s. I have no choice but to set it up in the living room, where a combination of doorways, windows, frequently-used stove, and even-more-frequently-used TV dictate that the speakers are positioned, well, weirdly (and that I get to use them less than I'd like).



Don't trust the dimensions/proportions too much, but this shows the approximate layout. The lines of Xs are sofas. As you can see immediately, the one good thing about the room is that it's quite big (I guess about 20'x15') - not that that solves my problem, but it does allow for all my LPs, and having them in one place is my greatest victory so far!
Anyway the details don't really matter - we could talk about whether in my particular case I should do X or Y, but frankly there are no options that position the speakers such that they are well placed acoustically AND have a seat facing them! They sounded great on either side of the doorway on the left of the diagram (a speaker at position B2 and one at SPK A), but only whilst I moved the sofa out of the way. So we're back to having one at SPK A and one at SPK B. As you'd expect the result is not brilliant for the sound stage. There is a sweet spot where it is approximately balanced, but the depth of the stage and the clarity of the distribution of instruments is not like it was when the speakers were around the doorway. I want to fix this. I have read with great interest DaveG's thread (http://audio-forum.gspaudio.co.uk/room-treatment_topic2872_page1.html) and the links suggested there, and would be interested in trying some room treatment - people don't seem to discuss layouts that are asymmetric quite like mine but there are doubtless gains to be had. But I don't think that would be a complete solution anyway.

Well enough beating around the bush and special pleading; to the point: I want balance! Yes, I know that my soundstage is being distorted by bigger acoustic problems with my layout than simple balance (by which I mean adjusting the perceived relative volume of each channel). I want to sort them too. And I know balance controls are not ideal. But I also know from using my previous integrated amp in this set-up (a half-decent NAD with balance control) that a small tweak to the relative volume of each channel can work wonders, because when balance is not right it's not just that the soundstage shifts to one side or another and you can just move around the room until it's right. Instead the instruments get stacked up on one side, and moving your seat may well change where appear to be stacking up, but will not really fix the soundstage. Consider that part of the reason why, in my case, the balance sounds shifted to the left is that that corner of the room traps sound (and it was a whole lot worse when the speaker was near the rear wall by the TV). Reducing the output of that channel seems to help redress this sound trapping in a way that moving yourself to the right can't.

Of course like most higher end integrated amps, let alone pre-amps*, the Caspian has little more than input selection and a volume pot, and for all the right reasons that I was quite happy with when I bought it. But nevertheless my question is, does anyone know of off-board solutions to balance control? I've never seen one (aside from as part of the capabiities of a graphic EQ, which is definitely not on my wishlist!) Ignoring acoustic treatments and non-viable layouts for now, I can imagine several electronic solutions, some that exist and some that I've never seen (and here I will demonstrate again my ignorance of both the market and of the design of electronics):

  • use proprius power amps, each with their own gain control ;-) Sadly beyond my budget today!
  • use an in-line attenuator on one channel only of each source. I don't think there's a GSP one, sadly. This would offer a fixed degree of attentuation on one channel. It would be great if there were a range of attentuation available, or if they could be built so as to swop out components to adjust this.
  • use an in-line attenuator on one channel only between pre- and power-amps, or use the tape loop like people used to do with an EQ (this has downsides but would mean it's easy to bypass too).
  • a new gadget that has an actual balance control of some variety, positioned as above (before power amp or in tape loop)
  • some sort of attentuation - fixed or adjustable - at one end of the speaker cable. I imagine something akin to a banana plug that perhaps increases the resistance on one channel only. Easy to install, you could daisy-chain them to increase the effect!

I don't know which of these would be the least noisy solution and most fitting from a hi-fi point of view. Nor which are even feasible! I'd love your thoughts on that, Graham.  Personally I like the last idea best, but haven't the faintest idea of whether it's possible to do this effectively. But it seems to me that we can make huge gains from small things that might be imperfect from a hifi POV but actually add much more than they lose, given the real-life compromises we sometimes have to make with set-ups.

What do you folks think? Should I be taking a long, hard look at myself in the mirror for even talking about redressing balance issues via electronic means? Are any of these solutions viable or extant? Any other thoughts?

Thanks!

Jeremy (now off for a weekend of wedding celebrations but doubtless checking this thread during photo sessions and speeches)


*before the NAD integrated I used a Cambridge pre/power combo with separate volume pots for left and right. That seems like balance done the right way. I still use it for its phono stage, actually, but not for much longer!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote morris_minor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2016 at 12:42pm
Pheww! 

The last time I saw a diagram like that was when I was learning to program main frame computers as a student back in the 70s and thought it was a good crack to use reams of continuous stationery perfecting "text pictures".

No doubt some kind of variable balance control would be best, but using the tape loop with one channel attenuated might be the simplest thing to start with. I need to let those with better knowledge than I have take it further.

Quote . . . but doubtless checking this thread during photo sessions and speeches
There speaks a true audio enthusiast  WinkLOL . . .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2016 at 1:23pm
Perhaps digital room correction is an option. I know nothing about it but I'm sure I remember that someone here uses it to optimise their system... (Andrew perhaps?). Dunno how much of your listening is ripped files or streaming.. there might be a software solution that works

Edited by DaveG - 10 Jun 2016 at 1:25pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richardl60 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2016 at 2:15pm
Hi would it work having the left hand speaker between what is shown on the top wall to the left of the tv?   Have never tried speakers on adjoining walls but this may give better perspective on bottom sofa at expense of the vertical one?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Drewan77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2016 at 2:57pm
Originally posted by DaveG DaveG wrote:

Perhaps digital room correction is an option. I know nothing about it but I'm sure I remember that someone here uses it to optimise their system... (Andrew perhaps?). Dunno how much of your listening is ripped files or streaming.. there might be a software solution that works
Yes Dave, it's me and it would definitely solve all his issues but I don't believe Jeremy would invest in the sort of system I use (DEQX HDP-5 & HDP-3).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeremyo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2016 at 3:55pm
hehe, glad you like(?) the diagram Bob! I was bereft of useful tools on the train so went old-school. You'd never guess I was technical lead for the websites of a national museum.

Thanks for your thoughts. That does seem simplest and cheap too, and I'll discover if I'm barking up the wrong tree too!

Dave and Andrew, that is indeed an interesting idea, I had read about your experiences Andrew and it sounds like a case of, suspend suspicion and believe your ears. I am also primarily a vinyl person and it would seem treacherous to push my analogue path through a digital process right at the end.... but then I guess the point of my original post was that I'd rather be pragmatic than dogmatic and that what's really important is the sound at the end! But in the end you're right about the scale of the investment, and certainly the DEQX gear is beyond a dream for me Tongue

Richard, it's a good thought. Actually until recently that was the  layout, although it meant the hifi was pretty much in front of the speaker. We got some new units that allowed me to change this and, by moving the left speaker out of the corner, the overall balance improved even though it meant it was closer to the bottom sofa. A bit counter-intuitive perhaps, but maybe also helped by the fact that the speaker has an opening to the left to further reduce reflections. In the end you're probably right in that I should keep exerimenting with positioning and I may make progress.

As I was reading all your contributions I happened to have on a Neil Young live LP (Rust Never Sleeps) that I'd not played since I got the Roksan and PMCs. I wasn't really listening and yet a whole bunch of things I'd never heard before leapt out at me, which told me to be happy with my lot! And then Shaky sang "and the aimless blade of science slashed the pearly gates", which really nailed the point home: don't analyse it to beyond the point of enjoyment!

Thanks guys.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fatmangolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2016 at 8:40am
Could you put the speakers at each end of the X's and the sofa out from the left hand wall? That would give some symmetry, including a triangular arrangement between speakers and the listening point.
Jon

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