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Simple Sub-Woofer Driver

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Graham Slee View Drop Down
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    Posted: 15 Jul 2015 at 8:56pm
As I am hoping to put a mono-sum line output (RCA jack) on an integrated amp I'm designing suitable for a powered sub-woofer (or a mono amp such as a Proprius and a passive sub), I would like to know what minimum spec or features members might want?

Please note the operative word: simple.
1. Would a full frequency range output be OK?
a. seeing that most powered subs I've seen have a crossover.

b. seeing as the passive subs I used last year (the Stirling AB-2 bass extender) which were powered by additional Proprius amps, have a crossover.

2. Would a high-pass filter be required to be switched in on the stereo speakers when using a sub, and how steep (dBs/octave), so they don't add to the low bass?

3. If yes to the above, would a control be required to vary the cut frequency, and what lower and upper frequencies?
Thanks in anticipation of a whole lot of different replies Wink

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2015 at 9:32pm
I've only ever used active subwoofers and they have all had their own crossover. So I would suggest full range output. I'd also suggest stereo output instead of mono for added flexibility as most subwoofers have a stereo input and do their own signal summing. It also gives the option of 2 subs (i.e. left and right).
I'm also on the lookout for a new subwoofer, my BK XLS300 is completely out-classed by a pair of Proprius and PMC speakers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ICL1P Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2015 at 11:13pm
I didn't understand the question(s)!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Drewan77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2015 at 7:07am
1. Yes, most if not all powered subwoofers do have an inbuilt crossover. I believe these are most commonly Linkwitz-Riley - some research may be needed to check.

2. I would recommend a high-pass filter because in my experience, removing the lowest frequencies from the main speakers can be highly beneficial - less work for the amps to do and smaller cone movements for the mid bass drivers giving a tighter, cleaner sound. Without a high-pass filter, lower frequencies from the main speakers are likely to add to those of the subs in a more unpredictable way.

There is no definitive answer as to the slope but I have found 4th order 24dB/octave to give a good blend and I believe this is now fairly common with powered subs themselves.

3. Variable crossover frequencies from, say 50-120hz if possible with the range 80-100hz being ‘typical’ & the lower the better, depending on the capabilities of the main speakers.

Before I moved to an active crossover system, for many years I used a small Miller & Kreisel passive high-pass device between pre-amp and speakers. This contained a 2nd order passive crossover set at 80hz and controlled frequencies/crossover for the mains/subs. It did a very good job and avoided many of the frequency issues found around the crossover point. However it did not fully address phase and did nothing for timing which is why I moved to an active system.

This device went out of manufacture many years ago but the manual can be found here.

4. If possible, I recommend the facility to manage a pair of subs - either stereo or summed mono positioned differently in the room can have a very positive impact in taming room nodes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richardl60 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2015 at 11:47am
Hi Graham,
 
Whilst I have never felt the need for a sub as my speakers go in to the 20-30hz bracket as it is, if you are catering for various options as you usually do, toggle switches as the Revelation/Elevator appear a good option to cater for those with differing needs?  Cannot comment on severity of the slopes but I see your point that you could end up with huge lower/middle bass hump, albeit some might like that from the few times I have witnessed Subs in home use!
 
My perception is that Subs would be power hungry, is that correct or a false impression.  Depending on the answer would the amp need more grunt than the Proprius, albeit in a limited frequency range (sorry have no knowledge of impedeance of subs)?
 
Richard
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2015 at 2:29pm
Originally posted by Richardl60 Richardl60 wrote:

My perception is that Subs would be power hungry, is that correct or a false impression.  Depending on the answer would the amp need more grunt than the Proprius, albeit in a limited frequency range (sorry have no knowledge of impedeance of subs)?
 
Richard


I wouldn't think it would require more power than the left/right channels, but then again there will always be bass-heads, as you commented.

By making it a "pre-out" level, users can choose their own amp or active sub accordingly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2015 at 2:43pm
Originally posted by Drewan77 Drewan77 wrote:

There is no definitive answer as to the slope but I have found 4th order 24dB/octave to give a good blend and I believe this is now fairly common with powered subs themselves.

3. Variable crossover frequencies from, say 50-120hz if possible with the range 80-100hz being ‘typical’ & the lower the better, depending on the capabilities of the main speakers.
...

4. If possible, I recommend the facility to manage a pair of subs - either stereo or summed mono positioned differently in the room can have a very positive impact in taming room nodes.


This design is getting to be very similar to the MA230...

(MA was the initials of the MD who took all the credit for the amp design because he decided it needed to include high-pass filtering. Obviously, he said it and it just happened - god-like creator? No!)

OK, but 24dB/octave will sound really weird phase-wise if the sub has a shallower slope. Maybe a choice between 12dB and 24dB?

Frequency sweep 50Hz to 120Hz? I'll see how easy that is.

Best to make it a post volume stereo pre-out with a back panel mono-sum switch. The relative level would have to be adjusted on the active sub (or the additional amp driving a passive sub).
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