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Bi-wiring

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suede View Drop Down
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    Posted: 25 Dec 2011 at 2:01pm
Hi
Can anyone please tell me, how much can be gained from bi-wiring?  I've heard some people say it's just a gimmick to sell expensive wire, is this so or are there truly benefits?
And talking about expensive wires, how much does a £1 a foot speaker cable really differ from a £5 or £10 one? Generally speaking that is.
My wires are of the first kind and made by Jenving. I think mine sound very fine indeed but then I haven't compared them to anything really. And believe it or not, but the salesman at my local hifi store actually told me they would more than suffice. Now I don't have the best gear in town, not when it comes to speakers and line amps at least Wink, but it's not crap either and if there were apparent gains to be made you would think he'd try to flog me something more expensive?

Edit:
When I think about it I did have my old vintage non-ideal speakers when I bought the wires so the salesman was probably right about that. Smile

Cheers
Johan


Edited by suede - 26 Dec 2011 at 1:23pm
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Fatmangolf View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fatmangolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Dec 2011 at 11:14pm
There are differing opinions on this. In theory bi-wiring separates the currents feeding the woofer and tweeter/midrange and avoids modulation/swamping the treble with the higher bass currents. It could allow two different cables to be used, perhaps one that is thicker for the bass. Others suggest that a single cable of better quality gives better results than the same spend on a pair of cables to each speaker.
 
It is worth considering the cable types because the capacitance varies depending on materials and construction, as well the length. Bi-wiring doubles the cable length and puts the amp in the middle of a longer cable with woofer at one end and tweeter at the other. The risk is destabilising the amplifier, giving a less accurate reproduction of the music.
 
You could test standard versus bi-wire with your current cables by listening in mono. Unplug the right hand speaker cable. Try listening to the left only wired as now, then use the right cable to bi-wire the left hand side. This assumes you have a solid state amp.
 
A more expensive cable of £5-10 is going to sound better than £1, if it suits your amp and speakers. A home demo is the best way to find out.
 
Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyreg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2011 at 10:21am
LScable can make a big difference in sound (matter of synergy as is with everything else) Wink
 
With my experiences earlier on and recently with Harbeth P3es2's, I concluded it gets much more difficult to get the soundresult you're looking for.
 
Because you also get far more variables to deal with, like:
how to connect the cables on the speakerterminals? (straight or crossed);
same cable diameter or not?;
how to connect on the amplfier?;
and much more things you don't want all to tryout Confused
 
Take a good not too expensive (copperbased) LScable and singlewire it on the bass terminals Smile
Jenving/Supra Ply3.4 would be a nice cable to try out, it also has some fine reviews.
 
In my experience a netpowercable(easier to connect and tryout) also can bigchange the sound Shocked
Goodluck Han
TecnoDec/RB250/MP110>GramAmp2C/PSU1; Cyrus CD8SE; > Exposure 3010S2D INT > Harbeth C7ES-3 '35th Anniversary'
cabling: IC 2x DNM V3; LScable Exposure DMF-two; Furu TP60 + MWaY and BlackCable pc's
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suede Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2011 at 1:42pm
Thank you both very much. I think I might try the supra ply 3.4. I was intrigued by it before even but since I need about 30 feet of cable I was too cheap. But if I'd want to try out biwiring, should I use the amps both speaker outputs A and B, as if I was using two pairs of speakers? Wouldn't that screw up a lot of things?

btw, has anyone heard B&W's DM685's? I'm entertaining the thought of a speaker upgrade hence the biwiring query

Cheers!


Edited by suede - 28 Dec 2011 at 3:38pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldagetraveller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2011 at 6:56pm
I don't know if this would be of any use? I found this on the What HiFi forum in a thread about EB Acoustics loudspeakers. http://www.ebacoustics.com/index.html

"The above was my original review. WOW did I get it wrong. I phoned up 
the company to return these speakers and the guy was great, but wanted
me to try a slightly different wiring arrangement – he called diamond
wiring. He said he would absolutely honour the return deal, but he just
wanted to understand the issue. He told me to forget bi-wiring and to
put the terminal connectors back on and wire in the plus to the tweeter
and the minus to the bass. He said he would extend my trial period so I
could try this. While doing this I discovered a very embarrassing
problem (I had checked this three times but missed it). One of the
speakers was bi-wired with the bass unit polarity reversed. Well I
decided to do what he told me (diamond wiring). WOW. I love these
speakers and would really like to withdraw the review above. I am
working through my collection with the biggest smile on face. There is
no way I would return these little gems. I am so surprised – seriously
these are great speakers. Great detail, superb integration, perfect
bass, supremely musical, they don’t get caught out with difficult music
and they work at sensible listen levels."

This is Naim's opinion and one of the reasons why I don't bi-wire, plus I've never noticed any difference when previously trying bi-wiring. -

"Why does Naim not agree with bi-wiring and tri-wiring passive loudspeakers?

It's true that we are not great fans of multi-wiring passive loudspeakers in accordance with current vogue. Our belief is that if the crossover has been correctly designed, a single run of cable between amplifier and loudspeaker offers the best sound, as well as making it easier for the amplifier to drive safely. Obviously, if the speaker crossover has been deliberately designed to sound better when bi- or tri-wired, then it quite possibly will; but that's not to say that it wouldn't sound better overall if it were designed for single wiring in the first place, as our speakers are."


   
Peter

P T- LPT/RB300/G1042, Pink Triangle Tarantella/Nima/Ortofon 2M Black, SL1210II, Naim CD5, NAC112, NAP150, Flatcap2, Proac SC1, GS SoloUL,GS Accession , Senn HD250 & HD540.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suede Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 2011 at 2:43pm
I now have a demoing pair of the dm685 at home and have listened to them the last few days. I like them very much but I've found that their results vary quite a bit with the quality and producing of an album. Really well produced stuff like Steely Dan or a lot of progressive rock sounds extremely good to my ears while poorer material often sounds a little grainy and a bit muddy almost. And with poorer I don't necessary mean garage music and 30's jazz but a lot of 60's 70's rock like early Led Zeppelin and such that I think should still sound grand on great speakers. I don't know if this is to be considered a fault with the speakers or or not? Confused
Anyone recognise this, the unusually great disparity between quality of material?

Johan

Edit:
Regarding the mention of the crap sounding Zeppelin, that was the CD's. These are some really crap CD remasters. As it turns out the vinyls still sound great!


Edited by suede - 22 Mar 2012 at 2:54am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fatmangolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 2011 at 9:35pm

Yes. And it is not a problem with your hi-fi equipment.



Edited by Fatmangolf - 31 Dec 2011 at 9:38pm
Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.
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