New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Do preamps enhance sound quality?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Welcome to the Graham Slee Audio Products Owners Forum

 

Open to all owners plus those contemplating the purchase of a Graham Slee HiFi System Components audio product and wishing to use this forum's loaner program: join here (Rules on posting can be found here)

This website along with trade marks Graham Slee and HiFi System Components are owned by Cadman Enterprises Ltd


Do preamps enhance sound quality?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Graham Slee View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Retired

Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Location: South Yorkshire
Status: Offline
Points: 16314
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Do preamps enhance sound quality?
    Posted: 14 Apr 2023 at 7:25am
Do preamps enhance (beautify or improve) sound quality?

Does putting a preamp between a DAC and a power amplifier improve the sound?

I know one firm who sells preamps that insists it's so (...really good at talking to camera, but why put an old signal generator on top of a bookshelf speaker?)

If the DAC and amp match within IEC61938, and the interconnect isn't pants (or snake oil), then you're getting the best sound quality from that pairing you're ever going to get.

Unfortunately, people who say that today are burned in the wicker man or at the stake of hi-fi-fo-fum... etc.

All audio circuits except for the simplest - a piece of suitable wire - inflict their own character on the sound...

It's called distortion, noise, frequency response and phase lag or lead at sensitive frequencies.

What you can do (as a designer) is manipulate the sound using these destructive characteristics, to give the sound what the reviewers love to write about, which is nouvelle cuisine and wine tasting. And that's what shifts carloads of boxes, and makes you rich - provided you know what the reviewer's sweet spot is, and that's often more to do with anything but the truth.

But, you can also do that with tone-controls, but then the customer is in charge of the results, and that brings in unwanted variables - each will sound different due to taste and will not work well for social media thumbs up(YouTube).

And that's what killed off real high fidelity - shtum.

Hey guys! It's dead. You can stop killing it now. What? You're not listening. OK then, you guys win. Enjoy the moolah.
That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps
Back to Top
Sylvain View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 18 Jan 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 481
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sylvain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2023 at 10:33am
It cannot " enhance" but possibly " restore" the tone. Digital electronic has caused this, electronic in the path of analogue. DAC and CD output have the "bright glare" clean  clear crips in comparison with similar music material on a different medium, Vinyl or cassette tape....but the acoustic is better preserved on these medium and true to performance.

I recalled a designer introducing valve or other into the CD player to offset the electronic tone and some now use " plug In " software capsule to return the tonal effect to a more palatable natural sound.

Then there is the high output of CD /DAC  players that accentuate the "bright glare ".  I see from my less than knowledgeable perspective, that even the new generation brought up on Digital electronic computer generated sound who have lived to hear a Saxophone or Contre -bass or Violin in a live set Up and then return to their CD player to be dismayed, the " feeling or emotional content' is not there in it's vivid content. 
I see a Pre -Amp necessary to attenuate the CD ' output and yes Music is Created in a medium of Communication and it's authenticity and originality is the value of the ' Art" . But , the artist and his " piece of creation ' is under the spell the Sound Engineer and electronic  Mixing Console among much hardware and Software before it reaches the Listener in appreciation of the Creation. But listening to a specific piece of music on different " audio system" provide a different take or taste and the Listener consume according to the " Perception" he chose or has develop in his Psychy and if as mIne in Acoustic instrument tone and wooden timbre enclosure instruments ....would accept a Pre-Amp that returns the natural tone or relieve the digital tone. But there are " Pre Amp" and today's world know it as " tone re - Processors" 
Back to Top
Fatmangolf View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 23 Dec 2009
Location: Middlesbrough
Status: Offline
Points: 9695
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fatmangolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2023 at 6:03pm
I agree with you both. In another audio industry about twenty years ago a series of digital amp modellers appeared and most did a pretty good job being highly portable with recognisable amps/ cabs available at the push of a button. A passive filter appeared on the market where the parts were hidden inside epoxy and this device was respected for reducing the digital sound... No connection of course as guitar amps without tone controls would unthinkable.
Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.
Back to Top
Graham Slee View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Retired

Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Location: South Yorkshire
Status: Offline
Points: 16314
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2023 at 1:31am
I did a phase filter about 20 years ago using "all pass" filters, because all pass filters are for shifting phase.

They sometimes get used to shift phase by 90 degrees between two channels for low leakage hearing aid loops. Another novel feature is the true mono converter, which I believe was used by some AM mono broadcasters, which made the centre information 3dB less powerful, and sounded more "natural" than the commercial stations with their a+b/2.

Anyway, because of the large phase shifts of elliptical filters in early DACs and CD players, the highs would lag by upwards of 270 degrees or double that.

If the turnover frequency could be identified, then the all pass turnover could be tuned to the same frequency, and at some point would equate to 90 degrees, and if you add that to 270 degrees, you get 360 degrees (or 720 degrees), which is also zero degrees. Instead you get a time lag instead of a phase lag.

It seemed to "improve" the sound by reducing harshness, but with alterations to analogue filters, there was no mileage in it, so ended up down the memory hole.
That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps
Back to Top
Graham Slee View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Retired

Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Location: South Yorkshire
Status: Offline
Points: 16314
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2023 at 1:17pm
Anyway, this is my opinion of the hi-fi industry giants...

Hi-fi-fo-fum,
I smell the wallet of an audiophile,
Be he alive, or be he deaf
I'll grind his naivety to make my bread.
That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps
Back to Top
Sylvain View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 18 Jan 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 481
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Sylvain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2023 at 3:26pm
HIFI Market Show all over the UK and Europe has a developed an Industry to support increasingly sophisticated audio equipment. The Marketing strategy is to subjugate minds to a " Must get". Music is another matter. Perhaps hard rock music and new form of Vocal singing has caused the medium of music to be less sensitive to the experience.

My library of music is some 40  audio cassettes tapes, 100 Vinyl records and 200 Cd's and over byte full of 24 Bit download and apple music. 
The industry has established the " RIAA " equalisation for Vinyl replay in Pre-Amp and is well accepted and refined. CD''s was Philipps Data storage medium and tentatively to introduce in audio replay. It took over domestic home audio set up. But I kept my Record player and Cassette heads and successive generation of  new develop electronic Filters to the Digital to Analogue Conversion left me with a software or "app " to apply more analogue to the CD DAC output.
I could not do much to the Industry mandate CD' /DAC Red Book implications but I can to the AMP and it must be ANALOGUE and Transistor derived from Valve genetic. Now, if I can attenuate the CD output with a Transistor Pre amp ....the digital glare is dead and Music restore i n it's authenticity and creativity and emotionality. My Proprious and 70's design was not read in a glossy Invitation pamphlet to AUDIO Fair in London or Birmingham or Cologne but my distinct assessment of the components and design to hear Music.
  
 
Back to Top
Fatmangolf View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 23 Dec 2009
Location: Middlesbrough
Status: Offline
Points: 9695
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fatmangolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 2023 at 4:58pm
Originally posted by Graham Slee Graham Slee wrote:

Anyway, this is my opinion of the hi-fi industry giants...

Hi-fi-fo-fum,
I smell the wallet of an audiophile,
Be he alive, or be he deaf
I'll grind his naivety to make my bread.

Thanks Graham. Sadly it is right on the money!
Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.