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Advice on MM Cartridge Decision

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote morris_minor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2016 at 9:50am
Originally posted by IntempestaNocte IntempestaNocte wrote:

. . . And considering it has filters that are meant to improve sound staging and definition I don't think it is really living up to the hype.
I had a Stream Magic 6 for a short while which had digital filters. I was totally underwhelmed by the whole thing. A Raspberry Pi/DAC+ into the Majestic was an order of magnitude better.
Bob

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IntempestaNocte View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IntempestaNocte Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2016 at 5:04pm
Originally posted by Richardl60 Richardl60 wrote:

Hi interesting comments. Two quick observations.

It is sometimes useful to have a CD comparison but would never assume either cd or vinyl is the benchmark. Both will suffer variations in recordings/mastering a/pressings etc and unless you are spending shed loads of money unlikely to be hearing CD at its best for example.

Secondly if you like the overall sound but is a little thin you may be able to subtly change the sound with cables, loading etc. May be one to persevere with?

Hi, The album is a recent release (2014) which came out simultaneously on CD and Vinyl so I would assume that the same master was used for both versions.  Vinyl is usually an afterthought these days so I doubt they would go to the trouble of mastering it separately.  Pressing issues only effect vinyl so would only figure in the event of the CD sounding better.  I can't really defend the theory as it is not my theory LOL.  It's just something I happened upon on Vinyl Engine.  I needed some basis for comparison to try and break the deadlock that I was in and I hoped that this test would prove useful - which it did.

When I auditioned my amp and cd player I auditioned a P******t Debut Carbon Esprit with an Ortofon 2M Red, the CD and Phono where pretty much on a par.  When I bought the RP6 with Elys 2 it was noticeable better than the CD, richer and fuller sounding as well as better defined.  The RP6 with Audiomods V and AT150MLX completely crushes the CD.  But then it should considering the price difference LOL.  The RRP of the AT150MLX is a mere £4 less than I paid for my CD player.  As such the CD was never going to be an ideal, but it serves very well as a known baseline.

As far as the cartridge is concerned I am definitely going to persevere with it, in fact I have now sent payment for it to Drewan77 so it is mine now.  I have learned that adjusting VTA can help a thin sounding setup so that is going to be my next step.   I haven't experimented with adjusting it yet, I just used a protractor and the manufacturers recommendation, maybe with a little tweaking it may sound even better.  I am going to upgrade my phono stage as soon as I have the cash so that will definitely bring an improvement, and I will also be able to experiment with the loading then.  After that I am planning to experiment with different cables phono stage to amp, starting with a loan of an AgSat.

As far as the iTube is concerned I bought an NOS Tesla tube shortly after buying it, once I get that cleaned up I am going to try tube-rolling it.  If that doesn't bring a significant improvement then that particular little piggy is on its way to market.
Scott

AT150MLX > Audiomods Series V Standard > Rega RP6 > Accession MM > Marantz PM6005 > KEF Q100 / Solo UL > HD540II.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DaveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2016 at 6:43pm
I think even if  a CD and vinyl are taken from the same source, be it digital or analogue, the very act of cutting the disc requires that it be EQ'd, hence the need for reverse EQ in the phono stage. It is always tweaked a little too at this stage in my experience, sometimes a lot. So they may well sound very different, depending on the skill of the guy doing the cut and what set up they have.

I haven't done any direct CD v vinyl comparisons myself in years now, but I did when I first got back into vinyl and in broad terms I'd say that vinyl tended to sound better in the mid range or presence band, which is where most of the music happens. It also timed better - I don't refer to pitch stability here as CD clearly wins in that respect, but in the the ability to get the old feet tapping - a bit like the difference between a red hot rythm section & a more pedestrian one. CD sounded a bit bleached out in comparison. But at the time I could quite happily listen to both formats on comparably priced gear. Part of the reason I ended up investing in vinyl was the atrocious quality of some cd transfers of older albums where they often just did direct copies, even off vinyl rather than master tapes. It was less of an issue with new material.

These days it's no contest, as (my) vinyl setup absolutely blows (my) digital  into the weeds, but then my vinyl front end costs around 5 times the cost of my cd player so perhaps an unfair comparison. I'd like to listen to a real high end CD set up, it's a mature technology and should be really good, and maybe it actually is. It would help to be rid of all this loudness wars/compression crap inflicted on mainstream digital though.

If only the major record companies actually liked music!!

As for set up, definitely worth tweaking vta, slightly tail down often warms the sound up whereas the opposite tends towards a brighter sound. I don't subscribe to the view held by some that fractions of a millimeter make a difference. Pythagoras tells me that is nonsense, but your ears will tell you when you are in the zone.


Edited by DaveG - 21 May 2016 at 6:52pm
Dave

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IntempestaNocte Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2016 at 12:55am
Originally posted by DaveG DaveG wrote:

I think even if  a CD and vinyl are taken from the same source, be it digital or analogue, the very act of cutting the disc requires that it be EQ'd, hence the need for reverse EQ in the phono stage.

Whoops, yep that's a good point.  That had slipped my mind, all that RIAA shenanigans is bound to alter the sound.  Again I can only say it is not my theory so I see no reason to defend it.  It was quite a while ago that I read it but I'm pretty sure that the guy who posted it didn't mention that either.  I'm very much still learning about this stuff and sometimes it takes a while for bits of information to float together in my brain.

I grew up with Vinyl and it has always been my preferred medium so I deliberately set out to build a turntable based system.  I read early on that in a turntable based system your budget should be weighted to the source end, so that's what I did.  Initially I wasn't even going to bother getting a new CD player.  I was just going to carry on using my trusty old Aiwa XC-700 (which I bought for £14 on eBay Big smile).  But I got such good deals on pretty much everything I had some cash left over and the CD6005 deal was pretty tempting.  So my system was intentionally weighted nearly 4:1 in favour of vinyl at the offset, at this point it is something like 6:1.  I certainly can't afford to take both mediums to anything like a proper high fidelity level so I made a choice.

These days CDs to me are just a cheap way of getting 'lossless' digital tracks to feed my NAS, with the added bonus of doubling as a hard archive.  Digital files are just something I play in the background when I am reading or working.  If I want to really listen and just enjoy the music I put on a record.  My only motivation to upgrade my digital front end is for playing albums that are not available on vinyl.  Eventually I'd like to work on improving my digital audio setup, better DAC, headphones etc but I won't be throwing the silly money at it that I have been spending on vinyl LOL.

As to varying VTA I have never done it so I can't be certain what the magnitude of the effect is, and I was seriously bad at trigonometry at school, but I am not so certain that tiny alterations wouldn't make a big difference.  It is all a matter of scale, with the stylus tip being so tiny a variation of even a mm at the other end of the arm would cause a significant amount of movement.  How this translates in terms of sound I have no idea.  Andrew might have some insight on this as he has the micrometer version of the Audiomods arm so he is actually capable of tiny VTA adjustments.  Either way I'll see how it goes.

Scott

AT150MLX > Audiomods Series V Standard > Rega RP6 > Accession MM > Marantz PM6005 > KEF Q100 / Solo UL > HD540II.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2016 at 8:42am
Originally posted by DaveG DaveG wrote:

...the very act of cutting the disc requires that it be EQ'd, hence the need for reverse EQ in the phono stage.


Just chipping in with my usual techno-rant here...

The cutter cuts a downhill response.

RIAA recording EQ lifts it flat in two stages (50Hz to 500Hz then 2122Hz to cut off).

The cartridge (all magnetic types) play an uphill response.

The phono preamp has a downhill response to correct for that, plus steps in its response to correct the recording EQ.

So there is recording EQ plus incidental magnetic cartridge EQ.

Some late 1970's - 1980s records sound toppy but not on cheap record player crystal cartridges which have a "flat" output. The boost applied made up for the "...then 2122Hz to cut off" making cheap record players sound more hi-fi with such records, but which sound piercing on magnetics with a phono stage. Examples being Christopher Cross: "Christopher Cross"; Mike Oldfield: "QE2"; Mike and the Mechanics: "Living Years".


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Drewan77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2016 at 9:36am
Originally posted by IntempestaNocte IntempestaNocte wrote:

Andrew might have some insight on this as he has the micrometer version of the Audiomods arm so he is actually capable of tiny VTA adjustments.  Either way I'll see how it goes.

Because there are variances in vinyl thickness from 45 singles to 200gm LPs, VTA is always going to be a compromise. Yes the micrometer is useful to find an ideal setting for a 'standard' thickness LP but after that I have left well alone.

Changes from turning the micrometer by more than two full twists while music is playing start to have an effect even though the subsequent change in angle is quite slight. The differences are so small that it's just not worth the effort IMO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richardl60 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2016 at 10:32am
I tend to agree with most of the points DaveG made re cd/vinyl - the midband tends to be the area good vinyl can excel in. I had a similar experience re George Ezra cd vs vinyl which I deliberately chose to use as a comparison. Both still sound a little over-recorded/compressed.

The CD loudness can be largely dialed out with suitable in line attenuators or similar leavings more relaxed, layered and dynamic sound removing a lot of the aggression though this will depend a lot on the sensitivity of the preamp - these were vital on May vintage LUxman though not now as I have adjustable CD input on my current amp.

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