When is RIAA not RIAA?
Printed From: Graham Slee Hifi System Components
Category: Turntable Audio
Forum Name: High Fidelity Turntable User
Forum Description: Technical Q&A, hints and tips
URL: https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2358
Printed Date: 27 Mar 2026 at 3:59am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: When is RIAA not RIAA?
Posted By: morris_minor
Subject: When is RIAA not RIAA?
Date Posted: 09 Oct 2014 at 11:32am
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This http://www.analogplanet.com/content/phono-equalization-bs-continues - post on Analog Planet caught my eye. I sought out the http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/zanden-model-1300-phono-stage-hi-fi/ - review it referred to. Another reason not to believe audio equipment reviews? TBH, I'd save myself over £12,000 and get a Revelation.  ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Replies:
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 09 Oct 2014 at 12:13pm
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I see that "Tubular Tom" - in the comments section - has fallen for the BS surrounding RIAA... For years I believed the same, but a nagging-doubt kept entering my mind. It eventually led to the "phono stage invention". So I reckoned, if I'm wrong I'll soon know, because when I listen to it, and when I measure it, the EQ will be all wrong... Nothing of the sort! Quite a few people have listened to it at three UK shows - and liked it - plus the EQ is as accurate as component accuracy allows. Records were produced for the masses - not just for magnetic cartridge owners. All the different EQs suited the reproduction equipment favoured (and often made) by the record labels... HMV records - HMV record players - HMV reproduction curves, for one. RIAA Records are cut with (negative) constant velocity up to 50Hz (to provide bass boost to compensate the poor bass output of crystal cartridges); constant amplitude to 500Hz; constant velocity again to 2122Hz (to counter the resonance of crystal cartridges); and from there at constant amplitude to wherever the cutter head output falls. Let's abbreviate that sequence to VAVA. Enter the magnetic cartridge - its constant velocity output changes VAVA to AVAV. The magnetic cartridge phono preamp equalises the record "upside down" - it does A where it's a V, and V where it's an A. OK, you get the desired outcome as far as measurement is concerned, but it is not the inverse used in disc cutting. The ear is most sensitive at mid frequencies (300Hz to 3kHz) so the last two A's and V's are the important ones. Should VA sound right when EQ'd AV, or would it be best done VA? The only way to do that is by removing the magnetic cartridge response - to EQ that first and make its constant velocity output into one of constant amplitude. Only then can the record be EQ'd "right way up". Then all of a sudden, the mid-range edginess so often heard with "bad recordings" doesn't seem so bad anymore... Seek and ye shall find... ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Bi-wire
Date Posted: 09 Oct 2014 at 12:44pm
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Interesting and quite heated stuff, if one reads all the comments too. I use a Revelation M and most of the time the settings are left at RIAA. I'm sure that most of my record collection conforms to RIAA but it is intreresting sometimes to play around with the settings, particularly if the recording in question sounds a little thin or flat in RIAA. Occasionally, an improvement, at least to my ears, can be heard - and I would stress that it is my perception of the sound, not a definitive answer. These are, I assume, RIAA recordings but they can be tweaked if one wishes. I also have a small number of 1950s recordings where the Revelation really comes into its own. Particularly some RCA and Decca FFRR records which, I understand, use their own curves. Here, using the recommended settings certainly pays dividends. I don't pretend to understand the technicalities and reading articles on this subject has shown me that there is agreat deal to it. Moreover, I suspect that there is a grey area (period) covering the late-50s (early-60s?) as RIAA was gradually adopted but other curves were also being used. Consequently, these days I tend to go with my ears. ------------- Peter Satisfied user of: Revelation M, PSU1-Enigma, Solo SRGII and lots of CuSat50 |
Posted By: suede
Date Posted: 09 Oct 2014 at 12:54pm
Is that to say they (the harsh sounding records) sound a lot better than they did before? Or do they even outperform the previously favoured non-edgy sounding cuts? Very interesting either way. ------------- Proprius, Reflex M, Solo UL, Bitzie, CuSats & Spatia --------------------------------- Johan |
Graham Slee wrote:Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 09 Oct 2014 at 1:29pm
Do you remember me going on about my Yes: Close To The Edge album? I can now play it and enjoy it. IMO, it is a better sound to my ears on all my records. ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 09 Oct 2014 at 2:37pm
The notion that switchable EQ is
is quite obviously nonsense, and must raise questions about the reviewer's ability to sensibly evaluate any piece of audio equipment. ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: suede
Date Posted: 09 Oct 2014 at 3:13pm
That sounds mightily intriguing! And I do remember a suggestion how one might enjoy CTTE the better, even with the now established shortcomings of the standard RIAA ------------- Proprius, Reflex M, Solo UL, Bitzie, CuSats & Spatia --------------------------------- Johan |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 09 Oct 2014 at 11:08pm
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On one hand we have an "everything's RIAA" article and on the other a top engineer rearranging the building blocks because it makes the music even better. My money's already on Graham's fine work and I'd echo Peter's comments about the Revelation and letting your ears decide. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: ServerBaboon
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2014 at 1:01am
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Actually Roy and Zandan have had a long love in, but he has reviewed the Revelation and called it a 'real steal' and that wasn't the UL one. I too have some old records marked FFRR, so are these actually RIAA? http://audio-forum.gspaudio.co.uk/hifi-plus-magazine-demo_topic33.html - Replay Curve Demo HiFi + ------------- Steve ------------- Various bits of GSP Kit ..well two so far, unless you count the cables that is. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2014 at 10:00am
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Non-78 FFRR uses a 50uS upper time constant (3,180Hz), which means it will sound a little dull played RIAA. The other two time constants (3180uS - 50Hz and 318uS 500Hz) being the same as RIAA. American NAB records use a 100uS upper time constant (1591Hz) and sound a little bright on RIAA. ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: suede
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2014 at 11:52am
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Do you have an estimation on when this new design will be ready and available Graham? ------------- Proprius, Reflex M, Solo UL, Bitzie, CuSats & Spatia --------------------------------- Johan |