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Vinyl Sound Signature
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Graham Slee View Drop Down
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Points: 16298 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2019 at 1:50pm
Perhaps I've been a bit too technical, but I have tried to explain the differences in SQ between vinyl and digital the best way I could.

Although there are no "saints" in vinyl production (my opinion), there are many more "devils" in digital manipulation (my opinion again).

Vinyl cannot be pushed very far before something "breaks", whereas with digital there seems to be no bounds.

Therefore, in my opinion, even though I have been on record as saying red book CD should be perfect, vinyl is nearer the truth.

And being technical again, if something has been de-essed, it doesn't take the ess away in entirety, it just takes some energy out of it, and that alone can reduce "reactive distortion" further down the reproduction chain.

Unfortunately, we have all been led down a blind alley regarding the "perfection" of electronics. Everything is fudged to some extent. Pure maths, as those who properly study it will say, is utopian, and mathematical modelling supplants pure maths in the real world. It is also admitted that even mathematical modelling is an approximation.

Everything in the reproduction chain is reactive, and what you hear isn't the source at all, but the way the equipment produces a facsimile of it.

This also applies to the "way in". So it will always be down to the care given, and to the motives around any fudging. Vinyl in which case, is to me the lesser of evils - the least ultimately distorted outcome - and so to sum it up, vinyl is more real, with the caveat that the same care is used in its reproduction.

I hope some of this makes some sense. Wink
That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps
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John1479 View Drop Down
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Points: 121 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote John1479 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2019 at 3:47pm
Originally posted by gwebster gwebster wrote:

Originally posted by John1479 John1479 wrote:

Why has my John Martyn post been removed? 

House cleaning?  Nonsense! 
To clarify things a little, your John Martyn post is still online right where you put it, which isn't in this topic.


Any chance we can get this thread back on topic?



Dear fellow members, 

Ouch. That was a mistake!

I won't make any excuses, I have none. I can't even blame drink nor drugs....

I thought I'd let this rest for a day or so and allow my embittered Arrogance to take ‎full responsibility for my rash reaction.  Also, giving plenty of time for justified mocking and humiliation. Not something I welcome, nor encourage, but, under the circumstances, deserved. Cry

It appears I have got my threads crossed and blown an output stage out of all proportion.

I apologise Whole‎heartedly for any upset caused to all and particularly to Chris Firth and Graham, and to the forum administration and moderators. 

I will take some time to think about my actions and whether there is any real benefit or purpose to voicing my strongly held views here, or elsewhere for that matter.   ‎As I have made my opinions plain, I think it best that I just get my coat. 

Sincerely, John.




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Chris Firth View Drop Down
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Welcome back John Smile
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miT View Drop Down
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Originally posted by John1479 John1479 wrote:

Dear fellow members, 

Ouch. That was a mistake!

I won't make any excuses, I have none. I can't even blame drink nor drugs....

I thought I'd let this rest for a day or so and allow my embittered Arrogance to take ‎full responsibility for my rash reaction.  Also, giving plenty of time for justified mocking and humiliation. Not something I welcome, nor encourage, but, under the circumstances, deserved. Cry

It appears I have got my threads crossed and blown an output stage out of all proportion.

I apologise Whole‎heartedly for any upset caused to all and particularly to Chris Firth and Graham, and to the forum administration and moderators. 

I will take some time to think about my actions and whether there is any real benefit or purpose to voicing my strongly held views here, or elsewhere for that matter.   ‎As I have made my opinions plain, I think it best that I just get my coat. 

Sincerely, John.
Hi John,

Things did get a little heated but I was brought up knowing that it takes the bigger man to admit when he is wrong and/or walk away from the fight. Count to ten, breathe, and then join us again mate. Everyone is welcome.

Not meaning to draw attention to the past but one of your comments about this forum's ruler , etc. needs to be clarified. Graham has created a safe-haven for enthusiasts to mingle with an understanding that respect for each other is a priority. I am yet to find that elsewhere on the internet but ultimately that is why we don't have [many of?] these sorts of spats, even though everyone is welcome to have their own opinions. We are all in this for the same goal, musical bliss.

Laugh it off and welcome back mate. Thumbs Up


Edited by miT - 06 Oct 2019 at 9:37pm
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miT View Drop Down
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Points: 890 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote miT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2019 at 8:25pm
Originally posted by RichW RichW wrote:

Going back to Tim's original question for a mo'.
'Can you please describe what analogue sounds like to you, especially in comparison to the digital equivalents?'
It's a very personal thing but LP at its best generally has a more convincing way with tonal & timbral
definition and soundstaging, but CD tends to have more drive & a more 'powerful' sound...
The 'generally' caveat 'cos so much depends on recording quality, LP condition, turntable setup etc. etc. 

Thanks Rich. At least someone was listening... LOL
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miT View Drop Down
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Points: 890 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote miT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2019 at 8:59pm
Hi Graham,

There is nothing wrong with being so technical about it, but just remember that us mere mortals are on a few levels behind you. Wink

Originally posted by Graham Slee Graham Slee wrote:

Therefore, in my opinion, even though I have been on record as saying red book CD should be perfect, vinyl is nearer the truth.


That is exactly what caused me to venture into the the unknown [part of the forum] and ask my original question. I don't know if it is simply that vinyl fans have better playback equipment as standard or simply invested more thought into the chain in general but to my understanding and putting aside variables in mastering quality, etc., vinyl seems to be more "real" and that is the (subjective) sound signature I want to understand.

I think I mentioned before that to my mind, we are "analogue" beings so while on paper digital is technically correct, it always seems to be missing something physical. Digital fans do invest in DACs afterall; maybe that should be enough of a hint... LOL

Originally posted by Graham Slee Graham Slee wrote:


Everything in the reproduction chain is reactive, and what you hear isn't the source at all, but the way the equipment produces a facsimile of it.

This also applies to the "way in". So it will always be down to the care given, and to the motives around any fudging. Vinyl in which case, is to me the lesser of evils - the least ultimately distorted outcome - and so to sum it up, vinyl is more real, with the caveat that the same care is used in its reproduction.

I hope some of this makes some sense. Wink
I wholeheartedly agree, as mentioned above. Perhaps the ease of compiling a digital playback chain (which should all be "technically correct" as it is digital afterall) adds to the problem whereas vinyl highlights incompatibility more? Or perhaps vinyl fans are generally far more experienced in their tastes and systems? e.g. What would be the vinyl equivalent of using a PC as your music source; a gramaphone I guess? How many vinyl fans (if any) would compromise like that, whereas for digital systems that is almost the norm. But how much audiophile knowledge goes into creating an HDD or solid state memory so that it sounds natural? And that is just the first stage... Geek

I could ramble on for a long time but RichW rightly pointed out my original aim of this rollercoaster thread. Big smile


Edited by miT - 06 Oct 2019 at 9:04pm
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miT View Drop Down
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Maybe as a petrolhead I can give a further example with transport:

Older vehicles had less electronics (or none depending on how far you go back) but were far more involving (and RWD!). The physical interaction made you feel part of driving, and that brought more enjoyment to it. To further prove this Chris Harris (journalist, racer, Tv presenter) has openly stated his favourite car is a Citroen 2CV because of how involved it makes you.

One of the biggest complaints among enthusiasts about newer vehicles is that they are "soulless", in no way involving as the electronics take care of everything, too smooth, quiet, lacking physical interaction, etc., which ultimately results in being less involved with the experience.

I know I can transfer my digital files when I feel like, play it in 10 years' time and expect (nothing is guaranteed, naturally) that they will sound the same. I can also skip songs, albums, etc. without a care in the world, but that makes me less focussed on the music as I am more likely to be doing something else at the same time.

I may have this completely wrong but vinyl collectors invest effort to look after both their playback system and the actual records themselves. When the record comes out and the needle goes down, it is with ultimate care, and this in my mind adds to it all being more of an experience to be savoured, builds up the anticipation...

The only time I get close with digital is when I use the physical media (CDs, blu-rays, etc.); I focus on watching, listening, etc. when I exert "effort" before I get to press play but my music "system" is a PC with absolutely no thought put into its musical abilities apart from my powered Bitzie.

Or am I over-thinking life again?
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