New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - PHONO Stages.... Oh No.... help
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Welcome to the Graham Slee Audio Products Owners Club

 

Open to all owners plus those contemplating the purchase of a Graham Slee audio product wishing to use our loaner program: join here
Subscribe to our newsletter here (Rules on posting can be found here)


PHONO Stages.... Oh No.... help

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 5>
Author
patientot View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Nov 2018
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 190
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patientot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: PHONO Stages.... Oh No.... help
    Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 3:25pm
Originally posted by Lucabeer Lucabeer wrote:

For what I am concerned, my AT440MLa (universally considered "toppy") into your Reflex M is not bright at all, just perfect (and I usually HATE a bright sound). So, good job! But that's just my ears!

RE: the 440, there is frequency peaking around 10Khz or so, and it's pretty prominent. This is at 47K ohm loading with 100pf at the phono stage + common cabling (add another 100pf or so). That's what makes it sound bright and it's very easy to measure that with a test LP that has a frequency sweep.

Load the 47K down to 39K with resistive loading plugs and it will tame that peak as I showed in my graph upthread. 

It's a quirk of the cartridge. Can't blame a "faithful" RIAA phono stage for not fixing a cartridge problem. 

It's like taking a pair of speakers that have very prominent peaking, then blaming a "flat" amplifier for not taming the peaking. 

Here is graph of the 440mla FR as done by Miller Audio Research. 


The 440mlb will have the same type of peaking you see in the graph as these carts are nearly identical. The newer 540ml which replaced the 440 models tames this peaking somewhat. 


Edited by patientot - 30 Apr 2019 at 3:39pm
Back to Top
Lucabeer View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Location: Torino, Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 419
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lucabeer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 7:58am
Originally posted by Graham Slee Graham Slee wrote:

Earlier today I was running an Ortofon 2M Bronze into my Accession M, and having read what John said was getting into a bit of a tizz, because it sounded a bit on the thin/bright side.

Definitely not thin, or dry, it's a very liquid sound with a generous but not overbearing low end helping.


Again, same here for me with the Bronze and the Reflex. Just perfect. On the contrary, it was with the Black that I found highs (cymbals, etc) slightly hot and "ringing".


Back to Top
Lucabeer View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Location: Torino, Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 419
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lucabeer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 7:56am
Originally posted by Graham Slee Graham Slee wrote:

Some cartridges are toppy, some recessed, and some just right, yet the poor old phono stage designer has to please all whilst making the frequency response as faithful to the standard as possible.


For what I am concerned, my AT440MLa (universally considered "toppy") into your Reflex M is not bright at all, just perfect (and I usually HATE a bright sound). So, good job! But that's just my ears!
Back to Top
patientot View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Nov 2018
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 190
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patientot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2019 at 12:23am
I used to have that Vessel A3SE cartridge before selling it. I think it's a good cartridge, with some limitations. At the $99 USD level I prefer it over some other options. It's also based on a cart that has been around in various forms since the 70s, so an old/proven design. Never had a problem with it sounding "thin" at all with different turntables and phono preamps. Unfortunately I never got to test it with the Reflex because I had already sold the cart by then. 
Back to Top
Graham Slee View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Telling it as it is

Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Location: South Yorkshire
Status: Offline
Points: 8472
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Apr 2019 at 6:56pm
Earlier today I was running an Ortofon 2M Bronze into my Accession M, and having read what John said was getting into a bit of a tizz, because it sounded a bit on the thin/bright side.

I've been using this Accession M for over a year constantly-on you see, so it's well run in. Anyway, I thought I'd try the LP Gear Vessel A3SE which Rome Castellanes had sent me a few years ago to try. The difference goes by the same name as the Gerry Raferty track I'm listening to as I type: night and day.

Definitely not thin, or dry, it's a very liquid sound with a generous but not overbearing low end helping.





Edited by Graham Slee - 29 Apr 2019 at 7:04pm
Not simple enough for Google-Bot to understand...
Back to Top
Graham Slee View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Telling it as it is

Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Location: South Yorkshire
Status: Offline
Points: 8472
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Apr 2019 at 6:41pm
Just an idea for John, perhaps the Accession is a bit too honest or transparent, so I'd give an Era Gold V a try. Why? The bass is looser and leading edges a bit more relaxed. It might just be the ticket. Now, if that's too much in the opposite direction then it would suggest the Reflex M.
Not simple enough for Google-Bot to understand...
Back to Top
patientot View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Nov 2018
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 190
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patientot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Apr 2019 at 5:32pm
Originally posted by Graham Slee Graham Slee wrote:

Some cartridges are toppy, some recessed, and some just right, yet the poor old phono stage designer has to please all whilst making the frequency response as faithful to the standard as possible.

I'm affraid that can't be done. It's like putting an athlete in a straightjacket and telling him to run a marathon.

Phono stages put simply, are fixed tone controls, yet if one suggests using adjustable tone controls one is shot down in flames.

Where there's no give, there's no give.

Perhaps other phono stage manufacturers massage the response. I have no idea. I just know what I do, and the AP checks my results.

Very true. That's what I've found as well. 

I would rather have the phono stage be "faithful" than adding anything or taking something away. 

I think some manufacturers do use a "tuned" response curve. There is one boutique U.S. manufacturer that does that - scooped upper mids and a big boost at both frequency extremes. Not for me. 

I think with cartridges, the best we can do is try to buy one that reasonably close to flat, or else experiment with loading or even tone controls/EQ. 
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 5>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.062 seconds.