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Side topic: Elevator EXP set-up

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Graham Slee View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2011 at 9:56am
Originally posted by oldagetraveller oldagetraveller wrote:


I'm sorry Graham, but if the Elevator is so cable dependent, if that is the problem, what cables are we supposed to use? The cables i'm using have been fine in my system for years and worked perfectly well and I really don't wish to go buying various other cables in the vain hope that this problem might be fixed.


I have to emphatically disagree - the Elevator EXP is NOT so cable dependent. I think it time that you parcel it up and send it to me so I can tell if it there is anything wrong with it. I will somehow reimburse you, but most of all I want to demonstrate that the Elevator EXP is not some difficult monster to deal with, but an easy plug and play product. There are sufficient out there in people's homes working to their owners satisfaction for us to know that.

I will say that any low level signal is cable specific in that you would not use twisted bell-wire or the equivalent of speaker cable to transmit it from one place to another - you would use properly shielded cable with the shield actually connected and that's simple common sense.
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tg [RIP] View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tg [RIP] Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2011 at 10:08am

I have no desire to "muddy the waters" here, but as a long time user of the Exp/Reflex combination with LOMC cartridges, I would offer a couple of observations.

From time to time I have, usually as a result of moving things around, had hum pickup problems.

I have always been able to solve them by repositioning either components (particularly PSU's) or cables, such that they are not in proximity to large transformers.

I usually start by having the hum condition present and then move various cables relative to components or components relative to components, usually the hum will increase or lessen when moving the affected cable even a few inches and indicate the required change.

Sometimes it has been having interconnects in close proximity and or parallel to mains cables sometimes other things not quite so obvious.

The very large gain required by LOMC cartridges and the miniscule signal exacerbate the problems.

It is worth noting that many LOMC afficionados who prefer step-up transformers for the initial voltage gain, often refer to those as "hum magnets", due to their requirements of very careful placement and cabling to avoid the problems being discussed here.

My Exp replaced a step-up transformer and I would not go back, mine is mostly used with a Denon DL-301 II.

Tracking and rectifying these issues can be very frustrating and I do empathise with your situation.

Other possible sources of hum may include the transformers within CD players, amps and preamps as well as standalone "bricks" such as the PSU1.



Edited by tg - 17 Nov 2011 at 10:10am
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oldagetraveller View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldagetraveller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2011 at 1:12pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSUhHVddHGQ

I uploaded a small amateurish video to Youtube. The Reflex and Elevator are connected by a cheapo cable and the green output from the Reflex to my pre-amp. Makes no difference whichever cable is used. The volume is at normal listening level(5 to 12 ish). No turntable at all. The buzz is from the left speaker only with the balance at mid. Balance to right, silence. So it's only one channel.
Peter

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote tg [RIP] Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2011 at 1:37pm
If you would be prepared to humour me, try putting an old shoe box or something of similar proportions and non metallic under the pair (Reflex & Exp) in order to increase their distance from the gear on the shelf below.  If that does not help I will shut up Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graham Slee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2011 at 4:48pm
Jon tells me he is sending you the Cusat50 he has spare. Please use this between the EXP and Reflex. Then please use the cheap interconnect between the Reflex and your preamp. This will at least establish whether there's a problem with the EXP or Reflex or the original cabling.

The rack looks as if it is metal and glass? If a not too particularly well shielded pair of cables were used and one is in close proximity with the metalwork and the other isn't there will be a difference in hum pick-up - I demoed this last night.

Also, ensure the PSU1's are located off the rack, preferably on the floor. A transformer induces its frequency (50Hz mains hum) into adjacent metalwork as vibration and that metalwork induces an electrical current into anything else that is adjacent to it. And so does the transformers in anything else stood on the rack, but at least by positioning the PSU1's off the rack that's one less problem (you may have already done so but it was worth the suggestion).

tg's points are valid. Connections and positioning play their part. In a one box design such as the Project all interconnections are guarded by its grounded box (even if it's not earthed it is grounded to signal ground). It is also known that some manufacturers used 50/60Hz notch filters in phono stages to remove the problem. I am not saying Project have done this but I know of one high-end product that does. We don't do this in our products as it makes a mess of the bass phase response and the difference can be heard.

I once made an amplifier for the fire evacuation industry which had a mains transformer and an output transformer. The case had to be made of steel to comply with fire regulations. I could not get rid of the hum from the amplifier circuit no matter what I did. I then removed the amplifier and rectifier board and all its connections from the mains transformer secondary and from the output transformer input. So I ended up with a metal case with two unconnected transformers. You'd expect no output then? Wrong! There was still mains hum from the speakers. The mains transformer induced 50Hz vibration into the case and the case induced 50Hz vibration into the output transformer turning mechanical vibration back into electrical current, and hence onto the speakers. It was eventually solved by spacing the transformers away from the chassis by all sorts of means.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fatmangolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2011 at 6:44pm

The Cusat50's are on their way to you OAT. Fingers crossed on that but I suspect the cheap/green cables tests have achieved the same end. You have probably already tried swapping the cheap cable's connections to the L/R outputs of the Elevator to see if the hum appears on the RHS instead?

Otherwise sending the Elevator (Graham do you need the PSU1 as well?) back to the GSP workshop is probably the answer as Graham suggested. Please deduct your postage from what you would have paid me back, Graham and I can settle up another time.
 
Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldagetraveller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov 2011 at 10:46am
"Then please use the cheap interconnect between the Reflex and your preamp". Unfortunately not possible Graham, phono out to DIN in. I originally had a Naim phono stage which, of course was designed to fit in with it's own connecting cable, DIN to DIN plus it received power through the same cable, from the pre-amp. The PSU1s are on the floor.
I tried tg's suggestion and the buzz diminished considerably. So it quite probably is that my Naim equipment, or it's configuration, for some reason, is not Elevator friendly? Directly beneath the Elevator is a cd player then pre-amp, their power supply and  the power amp are farthest away, lower down. I'd possibly need 2 metre interconnects! and the Elevator on the wall somewhere within range of the tonearm cable to achieve the desired result! If it were the cables wouldn't both channels be affected?
In answer to Fatmangolf's query - I tried with just the rh connections between the Elevator and Reflex - silence, as soon as the lh channel cable was plugged in - buzz. Also as previously posted when the balance control is far right- silence. Left channel only seems to be affected.
I now really don't think it's cable related at all, nor the Elevator which for whatever reason is picking something airborne up which is affecting only the lh channel. Dare I say the buzz sounds like 50Hz?



Edited by oldagetraveller - 18 Nov 2011 at 10:51am
Peter

P T- LPT/RB300/G1042, Pink Triangle Tarantella/Nima/Ortofon 2M Black, SL1210II, Naim CD5, NAC112, NAP150, Flatcap2, Proac SC1, GS SoloUL,GS Accession , Senn HD250 & HD540.
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