Final (?) review
Printed From: Graham Slee Hifi System Components
Category: Headphone Audio
Forum Name: Write A Review
Forum Description: Satisfied with your Graham Slee headphone amp? - share your experiences here
URL: https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=63
Printed Date: 27 Mar 2026 at 1:54am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Final (?) review
Posted By: Charley Phogg
Subject: Final (?) review
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2008 at 11:32am
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The last thing I learned with this amp is to have patience. The first thing I learned was that it accurately recreates what ever you feed it. It's not colored, it's not artificial. It is a Monitor Class amp, and is called that for a reason. After reading what Graham puts into his designs, that is not a surprise. From what I gather he strives for neutrality, and he has met that goal. From last Saturday or so, it;s now the following Sunday 5 am cst, until 14 hours ago or so, I couldn't listen to it. Part of that was my pc's fault. I had some issues that until about 3pm Sat I figured it out. Since then, my headphones have only been off to go.... take care of business and otehr things. Even as late as 4 nours or so ago, I thought the gain was to high. That has even come around. Thats why I said have patience. I figured once 500 hours passed what is is what is. Mine took over 530 hours or so. This little beast completely represents the whole spectrum with out any flaws.,meaning no flaws from the little beast. Some stuff you just have to deal with the flaws from the master tapes. After all, this is history that will never be repeated again. Earlier I listened to some Grateful Dead, 5-12-81 where Jerry dedicates " He's Gone " to Bob Marley, that smoked, then it led into Drums and I have never heard such sonics in a recording before. I kid you not, I could hear the difference of which drum skin was hit and the reverberations of each drum head, and the sticks hitting the rims, and the cymbals and the gongs all blasting at the same time and it was perfectly clear. Each and every hit,strike,smash,bang was crystal clear. That's two drummers mind you each with massive amounts of percussive instruments they are hammering on. I'm still grinning thinking about it.  WE will never see the likes of waht came out of the late '60's into real early '70's. Before commercialization, or rather, being forced to succumb to commercieralisation . Total free form where a group a musicians get together and flat out jam. Damn I was born about 10 years to late  Edit to change early to late in last sentence. Gotta be the SOlo's fault  trying to hard to hear the music. |
Replies:
Posted By: Charley Phogg
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2008 at 4:06pm
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Check this line up out..... The Matrix, San Francisco, California, October 21st 1970. Line up : John Cipollina, Jerry Garcia, David Freiberg, Papa John Creach, Jack Casady, Jorma Kaukonen, Nicky Hopkins. 1. Jam 1 2. Jam 2 3. Jam 3 4. Jam 4 Notes : Pretty good recording, awesome stuffs. Almost all the songs are not complete, some fades in, some fades out, some are cut, but it's just an super jam ! 1st generation reel to reel > revox > amplifiers > tascam audio cdrw750 > cd > computer > plex tool professional XL > wav > flac. |
Posted By: Charley Phogg
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2008 at 9:09pm
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Listening to some ELP right now. Having seen them a few times I can honestly say that this amp has to be as accurate as it gets, IMHO. I even sat close enough to Kieth Emerson to reach out and hand him a beer at a local pub one time. When it was him and Carl Palmer and I can't recall the other guy off hand, but they went by the name of 3. Hearing Greg Lake do C'est La Vie. Still, You Turn Me On and Lucky Man is amazing. It's like he's standing smackdab in the middle of your head and that amazing voice of his carries so far beyond my head it seems as if it's filling up the entire room I'm in. The imaging is so perfect it is as if you were there. But yet you hear things that you could never possibly hear unless you were on stage with them. Edited again for clearity |
Posted By: tg [RIP]
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2008 at 10:17pm
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Hey Charley, sounds like you are really enjoying it, and I, for one, am enjoying your sharing that. CU |
Posted By: Charley Phogg
Date Posted: 29 Feb 2008 at 4:41am
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Thank you tg. |
Posted By: Dave Millier
Date Posted: 29 Feb 2008 at 2:01pm
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Hi Charley
I'm awaiting my Solo, so as yet I have no personal experiences to share, but I have read your ongoing story with some entertainment.
I feel I have to say however, that I'm not convinced that all the changes you have so dutifully reported are necessarily real.
The problem is that you are not reporting objective measures, but subjective impressions.
And it is well recognised in Cognitive Psychology that one's subjective impressions are highly unreliable and influenced by all sorts of outside factors.
I think, therefore, that you are probably incorrect to ascribe so many of these nuances to changes within the Solo as a result of "burn in". It is far, far, far more likely that the changes you experienced came from internal changes in your brain state caused by any number of external factors eg: boredom, fatique, distraction, mood, what you just had for lunch etc etc.
That is not to say that there aren't improvements caused by physical changes within the Solo's circuits but such effects are likely completely swamped by changes in brain state.
It would be very interesting to perform a proper test of "burn in" effects. To do this would require setting up a test that removed subjective influence by removing from those tested any outside cues that told them what amp they were listening to i.e. a double blind comparison of a brand new Solo against a mature amp, with the results properly statistically analysed.
regards
Dave
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Posted By: leo
Date Posted: 29 Feb 2008 at 11:15pm
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The Solo really does go through a series of changes during
the run in period, Grahams prototype discrete headphone amp I built the other
day is currently going through this burning in process, the Solo was exactly the
same and also needed time to mature. Things I've noticed during the burn in is that the sound can alter over just a few days, its a known fact that components like new electrolytic capacitors go through a forming process So I tend to give any new unit a couple of weeks until things have bedded in before any serious listening Once you understand how electronic components work you'll know that the capacitor forming is not placebo Please do post your findings though Dave once your Solo arrives, I'm sure you will be surprised  |
Posted By: tg [RIP]
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2008 at 12:42am
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Dave, it has been the experience of most who have this amp and have posted on the changes in SQ during the "run-in" period, that the process takes around 500 hrs before the sound settles completely. Many of those users have much more experience than I, but my own experience tallies with theirs. Many have not posted in the, perhaps "Joyceian", stream of consciousness, style of Charley, nor perhaps with the same exhuberance, but hell man - he's getting off on the music - that is what the box is for. I do not think he is trying to convince anyone, I think he is merely reporting his experience, make of it what you will. Listening to music is never an objective experience for me - I always bring myself along, with all my baggage. Certainly, my perceptions of the "same" event (if there actually is such a thing) vary according to my mental state, but the speed of sound in air varies with barometric pressure and the voltage of the electricity main supply varies according to the load on the grid, the speed of electrons in materials varies with temperature etc. So what? - well, most people have noted significant and marked changes during the early running of this amp (including the designer) and there are reasonable scientific grounds for those changes, as Leo mentioned. Your experience (or your perception of that experience) may be different or it may be similar, whatever it is, it will be yours alone. Share it with us too and if it is not that favourable in the early days, then do give it a chance to learn to sing. |
Posted By: Charley Phogg
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2008 at 7:03am
Hi Dave, I appreciate your feedback and look forward to hearing what you think of your Solo. Sure I could of done it much differently, and granted, as I said from the get go that I'm not experienced in this and staeted my setup and and what I was using and comparing it to. I was just trying to relate my findings. Like I said before, the Solo sounded so good to me, right out of the box that it had me questioning myself. As you out it, it may of been to my congnitive response., but I think honestly it was due to Mr. Slee's voodo. Granted I;m not as eleqient as 99.9% of the population, and comsidering my brain injury, naturally that changes minute to minute. But I can guarantee you that my food intake has nothing to do with it, and it doesnt effect what I hear. Maybe I am guilty of being over exuberance, but my intinsioi ns where pure. Cognitive responses of any kind is my down fall. Any thing audio you have to take with a grain of salt. Sure, I could of sat back and after the recommended 500 burn in time reported what I heard, but hwere's the fun in that? Mine even changed from 500 to 530 very drasticly. Was it because I played music none stop the whole time through it and didn't simply leave it on? I dunno. Sure would be nice to know. I'm not one to sit back and wait for the burn in, I want to experience it, and yes, it is very real. I just hope that your experience with your Solo is as enjoable as mine is. Kepp us posted. Enjoy |
Dave Millier wrote:Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2008 at 2:06pm
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@ Charley Phogg: Chris, despite your disability I find what you write to be highly interesting and communicative. It gives me the necessary feedback I need to be able to develop my electronics in the right direction. We are not all blessed with the "blarney" - I'm certainly not - it's just through hours of writing and rewriting copy that our publicity material sounds half decent. Others in this industry are far more articulate - they can write wonderful things about mediocre products that have people racing to place their orders. @ David: I can only assume that you are cynical of the burn-in process that may look to you like a psychological trick (?) because you may feel that others have taken you "for a ride"? Burn-in is a very real thing which is accepted scientifically whether it has been done double-blind or not. Delve deeply enough and you will find it to be the case. Analog Devices is a giant semiconductor manufacturer which is not of the hi-fi persuasion - it makes semiconductors for numerous non-listening uses, but from the data sheet example here http://www.analog.com/UploadedFiles/Data_Sheets/OP37.pdf - see fig.3 page 11 (click the link) you will see a reference to burn-in because burn-in serves a very real purpose - in this case it demonstrates the improvement in noise performance of an integrated circuit. When used (for example) in a data gathering device of some description it has obviously been found that performance accuracy improves after a period of time because the noise level reduces. This is not related to hi-fi at all or the listener's mental state, but still the issue of burn-in is taken seriously enough to provide a method to burn-in the device quickly to help the developer arrive at a conclusion more quickly for this particular device. Another example can be found in IEC60950 - the standard for electrical safety of IT equipment - where the reading of temperature rise in a transformer can only be taken to be correct after 72 hours of "burn-in". Having conducted such testing myself I can understand the need for this having watched the changes over this period on the associated test gear. It is also one of the two reasons why broadcast equipment is left on. Having worked in a broadcast audio company as senior engineer, one thing I noticed was the complete lack of on/off switches on the mains distribution units at the base of each rack, and also on the equipment itself (unless it was something like a studio monitor amp which is technically speaking off-air). The reasons being 1] (most obvious) the broadcaster doesn't want to open a fader to find the required media isn't there because the equipment has been turned off, and 2] the equipment conforms to the required specification only when it is in its "warmed-up" state. This second reason is very important: Broadcast audio equipment in its cold (just switched on) state could exhibit anomalies in its specification which could trigger over-modulation in the transmission signal (even with an "Optimod" at the transmitter). Over modulation results in the obliteration of adjacent radio transmissions. It is a condition of the license (even for the BBC) that no radio transmission shall over-modulate. In the design and use of broadcast audio great lengths are gone to in ensuring over-modulation cannot occur. High frequency equipment is most prone to specification drift from cold. Today even the smallest Civic theatre uses radio mics, and I'm sure many going to Christmas Panto's will have noticed the shrill sound at the beginning of the performance. By the end the sound is just about passable. In a Civic theatre for reasons of local authority economies, the attention a west-end production gets is not going to be lavished on the Christmas panto. In the Civic theatre the equipment is switched on just before the performance begins. Graham Slee equipment is designed to be wide-band which means it not only shares many similarities with high frequency equipment, it also has to "warm-up" or "burn-in" just like the earlier examples above. The equations in electronics have many thermal terms, and no more so when dealing with precision circuits, low noise, high frequency and high speed techniques, which I employ in my particular niche area of audio. Let's take a very important equation that determines the correct use and performance of the thing broadly called the "semiconductor" - the Ebers-Moll transistor model (sorry cannot do superscript, subscript or the degree sign here):- Ic = Is[exp(Vbe/Vt)-1] looks simple enough until you ask what each symbol refers to... Vt = kT/q = 25.3mV at room temperature (68F, 20C), q is the electron charge (1.6 x 10-19 coulombs), k is Boltzmann's constant (1.38 x 10-23 joules/K), T is the absolute temperature in degrees Kelvin (K = C + 273.16), and Is is the saturation current of the particular transistor (depends on T)... (Reference: The Art of Electronics, Horowitz and Hill, Cambridge University Press, page 80) It can be seen from the above equation that temperature has a great deal to do with this very basic performance equation. When you lump all the semiconductor junctions together with other components that again have temperature co-efficients of their own, it is very difficult or nigh-on impossible to equate a time end point for when everything has stabilized. Just monitoring the voltages in a simple small signal amplifier from switch on until settling point is akin to watching paint dry. If one amplifier can sound different to another then the same argument has got to apply to an amplifier sounding different between it's "cold" and fully stabilized states, otherwise all arguments become hypocritical. The fully stabilized state of a highly tuned mechanism is obviously going to take a longer process than for something more run of the mill. Walk through the pits of a racing track hours before a race begins and you are deafened by the revving of engines, but the family car is happily motoring away within minutes of being started. I think I have argued burn-in here in a logical manner and I have given proper references too. But at the end of the day, the human race makes products for the human race and they are perceived the way they are by the brain's of that race, so it can be argued that all our very real science is a figment of our collective imaginations??????? ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Charley Phogg
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2008 at 7:21pm
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Thanks Graham. Nice write up too I might add. Very informative and once again, it gives some more insight towards the depth that you must delve into, to create the product that you do. |
Posted By: Dave Millier
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2008 at 6:39pm
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Hi Guys
I don't want to come across as someone who has made up his mind in advance; quite the contrary - as I said, I don't yet have my Solo, so I cannot perform the experiment myself.
Nonetheless, I simply like to judge things on the evidence. I'm no materials scientist so I will not attempt to challenge Graham's sources (oh, and no bad experiences in the past either!).
However, I'm basing my opinions entirely on a rational sceptic approach i.e.:
- there is a known willingness in the hifi industry for people to flog junk at astronomical prices and market it to the gullible with hocus pocus (I'm thinking of green pens, Peter Belt products etc)
- even respectable manufacturers like Linn have historically used a load of bull as part of their marketing (even if the principals actually believed what they were claiming)
- there is a bundle of writings around debunking a whole load of "received hifi wisdom" about certain supposed explanations for some mooted effects (eg skin effect in cables).
- Most importantly of all, human beings are totally fallible when it comes to their perceptions.
I think the last point is the most significant. There are volumes of research material about the total fools of ourselves we can make when evaluating any perception/sensory input.
Subtle differences in audio quality are right at the limit of what we can discern and all sorts of pyschological influences come into play and influence our judgements. They cannot be discounted and I would say (and probably be unpopular for saying so) make up more differences between products than almost any other factor.
It is very easy to say that you listened to a piece at 12 and it sounded better/worse than at 3pm so it must be the result of changes in the electronics. But a rational person, experienced in the tricks the mind can play would say with some confidence, that whilst there might have been a small change in performance of the components, it's 99% certain that what really changed was what was between the ears of the listener.
Personally, I have done enough listening tests to know that my appreciation of sound varies widely from day to day, mood to mood and that it is me not the 10 year old amp that is changing day to day!
When it comes down to trying to decide whether there is a real physical explanation for a change in sound quality it is essential to remove the human bias. The only way I know how to do that would be a properly conducted double blind test (i.e. one where neither those listening or those administering a test know what kit they are listening to during any one test). Properly conducted and interpreted, such tests weed out bias and reveal whether the differences are real.
The simplest test I can think of, is to pit a brand new Solo against a well run in one under blinded conditions to find out whether a panel could reliably identify a difference. More ambitious tests (eg to find out whether listeners statistically prefer the older unit) would only be needed if the first test was passed.
It is interesting to me that two of the most famous hifi challenges have both (to date) not been passed. One was the Boston Audio Societies challenge to Ivor Tiefenbrun which is failed dismally; the other still ongoing is James Randi's $1m challenge to anyone to demonstrate they can identify a difference between speaker cables under blinded conditions.
As a sceptic, I think that it can't be co-incidence that the Godfather of Hifi religion failed to back up his own beliefs under test conditions and no one despite the very large reward on offer has made any serious attempt at the Randi challenge....
Anyway, a facscinating discussion and I'm still pondering whether or not I should burn in my Solo for 6 months before listening to it or not ;-)
best wishes
Dave
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Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2008 at 10:48pm
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Hi David, Yes, it has become a sort of religion hasn't it? Having been brought up strictly by church going parents (dearly departed...) I understand quite a lot (but I'm not an expert) about religions. Different factions believing in the same God but killing each other because of the different ways they dot the I's and cross the T's (actually it's not that at all - it's all about something much more primeval - the dominant species becomes the richest and hence most powerful. Love of God my ass!) "allow one thought to live provide the others die" (Moody Blues, Every Good Boy Deserves Favour) All pushing their particular doctrines - trying to make you (the gathered "you") a believer and deny belief in all others. Except (in the context of listening to music), some branches of mankind tried to develop a scientific understanding of the truth of audio. I belong to that group and that is why I try to separate my little audio business from the religion called "hi-fi". However, audio is to do with human beings listening to sound and therefore many of the scientific tests are based on our perception of sound. I accept that mood swings can alter how "we" perceive music. However, I also accept the great amount of work that went into explaining how valves, transistors, FET's, etc work in real terms - the thermal and chemical properties (lest we forget, they are all made from the dust beneath our feet!). And as many are used to do things other than audio, and thermal effects are a fact of life, therefore temperature does have some effect. Also as heat is generated by work (the scientific embodiment of the word), then the thermal effects in a device or collection of devices WILL have some effect on the audible performance of an audio circuit. This bit is NOT religion! This is a dynamic thermal effect very similar to what exists in the mechanics of a car engine. An engine so designed as to take into consideration such dynamic thermal effects actually works and performs, whereas one that doesn't would seize up. But consider this: Those of us old enough to remember when the motor industry did not run engines up on the production line in controlled conditions, used to have to run-in the engine of a new car! However, like in religion, a time will come in the great dumbing down of mankind when the truth will be indistinguishable from false doctrine. And I think that time has come. Revelation 11:8 anybody? ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2008 at 11:36pm
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PS. Quote "- there is a bundle of writings around debunking a whole load of "received hifi wisdom" about certain supposed explanations for some mooted effects (eg skin effect in cables)." A tutor once shared a great wisdom with me - "From what we know" it went. What do we know about skin effect at low frequencies where those that deny, deny it can be so? Tell you what! Go and insulate every single overhead electricity supply cable on the planet - you know, those strung between things called pylons. Yeah, and then switch the current back on. And just watch the inferno! Hey, I just learnt from BBC Radio 2 the original title of "Freak-out" So to all those teachers of false doctrine - Freak-out!!!!!!!!!! ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2008 at 1:59am
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PPS As a professional audio-researcher I have found that some combinations of components and/or materials make better music than other combinations. However, in isolation one of the components or materials may be indistinguishable audibly to another similar component or material - like the speaker cable David mentions? In fact speaker cables are probably the worst items to hear any change between because loudspeakers have (de facto) the worst distortion of all in an audio system swamping any small difference. Try listening to the results using headphones instead of loudspeakers. But will the slightest positive difference be of any use? I believe it can be, if put to work with other items that also give the slightest positive difference. And it may be possible that the net result is better even into loudspeakers. I think the opposite approach is a flawed one. It is an approach similar to that of the modern witches (drug and food processing companies). I'm more of an holistic persuasion which has ensured the very survival of our kind over many thousands of years. These easily dismissed positive differences have in fact been the foundations of our business which has survived and grown just making phono stages and headphone amplifiers these last 9 years. It reminds me of a story about a couple walking along a quiet stretch of beach. They encountered several thousand starfish that had been washed up by a freak wave. The starfish were dying in the heat. They noticed a man picking up starfish one at a time and throwing them back in the sea. They questioned the man saying "it won't make a difference". The man replied as he picked up yet another starfish and throwing it into the sea "it made a difference to that one", and continuing in his quest said "and that one, and that one..." Substitute the madness of refinement or lies even, for real science within an holistic approach and you get the world we live in today - a world full of riches but a very empty world at the same time. By chucking out the least we chuck out the most. For those who treat hi-fi as a religion they may also find Matthew 25:31-40 of interest. ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Dave Millier
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2008 at 10:46am
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Very meta-physical!
For an engineer, you are a bit of a poet, methinks...
D
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Posted By: stuxter
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2008 at 7:02pm
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re: Revelation 11:8 SUPPERS READY
19:17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in mid heaven, Come and be gathered together unto the great supper of God; 19:18that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses and of them that sit thereon, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, and small and great
There's an angel standing in the sun, and he's crying with a loud voice,
"This is the supper of the mighty One", The Lord of Lords, King of Kings, Has returned to lead His children home, To take them to the new Jerusalem SUPPERS READY by P Gabriel
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Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2008 at 2:01am
More like "Last (?) day" than "Final (?) review" Can't wait... ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Charley Phogg
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2008 at 8:55am
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I guess all , ,I ohughta wait a few days to reply. Screw that I never claimed to be as adapt as others, but I gave my honest opinon. |
Posted By: tg [RIP]
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2008 at 9:07am
You most certainly did Charley and we are all that much richer for having you share that experience with us. Thank you. |
Posted By: Charley Phogg
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2008 at 9:18am
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Posted By: Charley Phogg
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2008 at 9:22am
I give up om ediyng |
Posted By: Charley Phogg
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2008 at 9:23am
Sorry Tg I failed
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Posted By: Charley Phogg
Date Posted: 04 Apr 2008 at 7:35am
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I didnt mean that as a cut to you TG, I took your complement correctly, but felt I got to much into the music and not enough into a comprehensive report. I have been in all sorts of occupations, where the temp, humidity, and everyting else imaginable has played a major role. Not to mention major bodily harm. I've smashed aluminum slugs, that were about the consinstancy of jello with a 120 ton press . That only related due to temp anf hinuty/ The one that most relates to this industry is I actuallu grew the silicon rod, that they would slice wafers down, that are used in any type of semi-conductor, to cpu's. That alone would fepend on the produce that the end user would receive. I think there were only like 6 or so, rmanufatures that di this. It's very entricate how you fo thisd. As the rod grows you agve to adjust speed, rotayion, likt and heat. My point is, its very easy ti get good parts, and lesser parts, or even bad parts. Alll having differnt effects Thats why this is different then that. for the same thing. Even though the parts are the same. Now I forgot what I wantedted to ad,lol |
Posted By: tg [RIP]
Date Posted: 04 Apr 2008 at 11:13am
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You're cool bro, I did not take it amiss. In a way I think your getting wrapped up in the music tells as much or more about the amp (particularly given your source, both from the point of view of its origin and its playback) as the more usual audiophool speak. Beethoven violin concerto - LP - via Reflex - now spinning - esquisito now what was I saying? Oh yes, Bob Marley - "one good thing about music, when it is you feelin' OK" I'm feelin' OK - hope you are too.  |
Posted By: Charley Phogg
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2008 at 2:43am
Few days short for my reply, but I appreciate it tg. And you're 100% correct. Thank you. I'm not into classical music,so to speak, but I gotta tell you, I will dig up my ELP Karn Evil 9 First Impression. If I recall correctly it's Kieth Emerson doing a 20 minute solo on the piano, the concerto excapes me at this moment |
Posted By: bozzy
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2008 at 1:01pm
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Amen to that. My Green Solo has been running for months, and just gets better all the time. I expected that would be the case for maybe 500 hours, and the improvements after that are very subtle, but they are there. I would be interested to know Graham's views on whether there are any worthwhile component upgrades, as there is now a lot of talk about this on another forum.... I still can't understand how he has managed to achieve this using a wall wart PSU. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 13 Apr 2008 at 11:16am
Ah, talk on worthwhile component upgrades on another forum? I gave up visiting such places after establishing this one. One of the reasons being "the claims of supremacy from upon high" don't wash easily over me. If you tell me of the suggestions I can tell you exactly what they do from a purely audio-engineering point of view. I'm waiting ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Dave Millier
Date Posted: 13 Apr 2008 at 12:09pm
Hi Graham As an engineer, do you consider it reasonable that DC turntable motor kits + speed controllers such as sold by Origin Live and the Funk Firm should cost £650? I know they are low volume, specialist upgrades but I can't help feeling that even a high quality motor shouldn't cost more than a few pounds. Surely the motors/electronics that go in hard drives must be much higher quality and you can get a HD for £25... |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 13 Apr 2008 at 6:09pm
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I don't know the prices for DC motors but the trade prices for some
suitable AC motors are beyond £35 (GBP), and that's before you fit a
pulley, which being specifically made for the job is going to be an
extra 50% I would have thought. As for the controllers, the "packaging" and the PCB are by far the most expensive things a UK manufacturer is faced with - in China this would not be the problem and hard drives are usually of Chinese origin? Cases are not cheap and after distributor, dealer and chancellor mark-ups can run to £50 for a small case up to about £180 for a heavy 2U case. PCBs count for about £15 to £40 depending on size. Charge out rates for a company? Its overheads (cost of premises, cost of credit, cost of depreciation, cost of heat light and power, cost of administration in the EU red-tape system, cost of tax, cost of VAT - that and much more before you get round to the MDs car...), its wage bill... You can count on at least £50 per hour (£150 per hour by the time it hits the retail shelf) These are known economic facts available to all if you take a look in the right places. Don't be shocked however. Take perfumes for instance: Factory gate prices are at least 10 times material cost - Plus all the costs above, and women don't seem to complain - in fact some men splash out a decent wad for a splash of "quality" aftershave. Maybe £650 could be considered excessive if the kit is purely a direct sale thing, but if distributors and dealers are involved, then I think it's about par for the course. ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: bozzy
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2008 at 11:49am
Wilco Graham - just as soon as I get a few minutes.
BTW you seem to have a few in here from another forum - nice to see some independent souls around. Also good to see that you are happy to support your opinions with the engineering theory, I prefer it this way, even though the electronic theory is way beyond me.
BTW I remain absolutely delighted with my Green Solo, which just seems to get sweeter with time - thanks again.
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Posted By: wadiaman
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2008 at 6:26pm
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Posted By: wadiaman
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2008 at 6:39pm
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I too am delighted with my Green Solo,truly the best sound I have heard from headphones !
As to the "tweaks" discussed in "the other place" what are your views Graham on........
A)Replacing the volume control knob with a plastic version ?
B)Separate grounding of the electrolytic capacitor cases,seemingly grounding wires are stuck to the tops of the cases and soldered to a copper strip running the length of the case, this in turn grounded to the rear terminal ?.
Cheers !
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Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 17 Apr 2008 at 10:40pm
This is not a dig at you, but Sorry, I only do electronics..... Prof. Peter Belt may however have the answers ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Charley Phogg
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2008 at 6:37am
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Purchased an Ori OMZ 4.1 dac and received it tuesday morning. Waited until 2pm to hook it up. The first 36 hours there really wasn't any change from my soundcard. Even knowing it was still way to early to judge the OMZ I still expected some difference to my soundcard. Went to bed at 2am fri moning and still no noticable change. Got up a couple hours later and immediately had a grin on my face. Sound satge has increased and everything is more vivid, nice and snappy. I can hear it now.... dear mr fantasy, play us a tune............  I was going to play the same concert constantly, and check back evey once in a while until its recommended 200 hours break in period, to notice the changes. Screw that, I'm back to just enjoying |
Posted By: wadiaman
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2008 at 3:26pm
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Posted By: wadiaman
Date Posted: 18 Apr 2008 at 3:31pm
| Sorry I can't seem to get the hang of "quotes"......anyway your reply Graham answers and echoes my own thoughts on these rather bizarre "tweaks" ! Hope you realise the question was very much tongue in cheek !! |