In spite of caring for audio quality, I have to make a confession: I have always only owned ceramic (in the '90s...) and MM cartridges. I actually now have 4 MM cartridges, and I regularly rotate them thanks to the detachable headshell of my Technics 1210.

This doesn't mean I haven't ever listened to MC cartridges: I have listened to some in other people's systems. Denon, AT, even a very expensive Ortofon Anna. I have never actually found anything so special in them as to be tempted to own one, though. Some sounded very good, but not necessarily better than my MM cartridges. Some sounded slightly different (more "polite"?), some IMHO were for my ears indistinguishable from the MMs.

But of course, nothing would beat listening to one for hours in my system for a more thorough judgement, rather than some occasional listening in other people's systems.

Soooo, two big questions:

1) Should I really do it, or should I stick to owning high grade MMs? As I said, so far I haven't heard ANYTHING that made me scream "oooooh, this MC is so much better than any MM I have ever had!". Never. No outstanding detail, no incredible soundstaging, no ear-opening epiphany.

2) Since I own a Reflex M which completely satisfies me, would adding an Elevator provide what I need, or would adding a Reflex C/Accession C be so much better than Elevator + Reflex M?

Thanks for all opinions!

Epiphanies:

I have had two.

One with the Opus 3 Continuo with Hadcock 9" arm and Music Maker 3, which lasted only as long as the motor capacitors newness wore off (2 weeks).

The second with a now defunct Nottingham Analogue copy turntable using my speed controller and an AT MM cartridge, by now I cannot remember which.

And I don't know if it counts as a third epiphany, but my old Sonotone 9TA ceramic cartridge on a Technics into a high impedance flat gain stage, with a bit of RIAA tweakery (which became the back end of the Accessions).

Otherwise, all other things just sound "nice". 

Well, Graham, I wouldn't have expected you to go for a heartfelt recommendation towards MC... and you didn't!

I know your reasons for not liking MC. Myself, I more conservatively say that I haven't ever heard the loudly touted advantages. But again... I have only listened to a few MCs and not in the comfort of my home and with my records. So, the curiosity remains...

But I guess that you (and my rational self) are saying: don't bother, stick with MM unless you really feel you're missing something.

I think everybody should at least give the dark side a try, if only to be able to pass on our experiences to others.

Let's face it, an MC is only going to result in financial loss (ruin, or at worse complete depression). It is the forbiden fruit, but hey, Eve reckoned it was good for food...

I ventured only as deep as the companies money would sensibly allow. If I had to use my own money I'd still be blissfully unaware.

So, after trying the Audio Technica OC? (it was either the 7 or the 9), and the Denon DL130, I decided I'd like something that sounded more musical to me.

I risked a Hana EL, and yes, it was more musical than the OC and the DL130, and it only cost around £300 at the time (now £409).

Perhaps it could have been impatience on my part - not tweaking every possible tweak out of my Technics SL12XX Mk3 (old type), but I think the 2M Black has the edge. And the Hana is back in its box.

What you can do, however, is borrow the Accession C from Kevin, but you'll have to cross to the dark side to buy an MC to use with it.

You might find it OK.

Graham Slee wrote: If I had to use my own money I'd still be blissfully unaware. You might find it OK.

I think this sums it all! Thanks for the honesty, a rare thing to find nowadays!

My other cartridges include:

Music Maker Classic

Technics EPC-U205 with Jico SAS stylus

AT150mlx

2 x Modified AT95 (they really do sound very good)

AT33PTG/II

Dynavector DV XX2

I have a couple of reasonable MC cartridges, but after the first ten to fifteen minutes, you can easily forget the subtle differences that an MC brings compared to a top class MM.

Then there is also the cost, and the lack of replaceable stylus. This makes listening to a lot of vinyl very expensive. Then there is also the minefield of finding an MC that you like. Then there is also the phono stage or SUT to consider.

If you are happy with MM, then stick with it. It is much cheaper and probably offers about 90% of what a good MC gives you. I am sure that there are some superb MCs out there, but the prices are scary for the really good ones.

As Graham said, if you want to borrow a MC phono stage, or the elevator, I have them available. 

That's what leaves me puzzled: I have listened to the Ortofon Anna, which costs so much more than my Nagaoka MP-500 / AT 440-540ML / Ortofon 2M Bronze, and I have found NOTHING that was evidently superior to the MMs I use.

So yes, I guess I will stick with MM.

Scratch the itch with Kevin's good offer of the loan of an Accession MC and beg, buy or borrow an MC

to try in your own system. Then you'll know.

MM & MI carts can be superb and so can MCs.

I've heard some impressive MC carts, but typically they are very expensive. Way too expensive for me and most other folks I know. I don't know too many people that would drop $4K-10K on a cartridge.

There are some decent lower priced MC carts out there (e.g. ~$500) but they do come with pros and cons like everything else. No such thing as a perfect cartridge IME.

For me personally, I stick with an MM cart where OEM styli are still manufactured for my daily driver. I have the loading (resistance and capacitance) set to get the sound I want. I can replace the styli as often as I need to and don't have to worry about stretching a diamond beyond it's useful life.

Some people prefer MC carts and that is fine. Figure out what you like and go from there...

 and Goldring 1042 for 180 gm re-produced Veuve and Gramophone masters. I have but a Project and DAK Genera and a retrieved from  a Integrated Amp board, a vertically inserted two stage SMD 2inch by 2 well printed board  on main circuit board. I await my first ERA GOLD V as my Vinyl Collection now is more of the distinctive 180gm re -issued from Digital cutting lathe groove.

the Vinyl revival has returned an Industry in mushroom growth of any and every accessories ton retrieve the subtle RIAA sound that the £00000 turntable can tempt ......But Vinyl evoke a deeper emotional  musicality ...whether the AT95 or G1042 than the silver disc in a drawer and that all that counts for me.

You know what? I think I will stick to MM. Doesn't make sense chasing something else... when one doesn't feel he's missing anything from what he has.

I will probably invest my money in something that actually makes an unquestionably hearable difference: removing the internal transformer and voltage regulator from my old Technics. I have listened to what an external linear PSU can do, and the difference in the noise floor is HUGE due to the vibration induced by the stock 35-years-old internal transformer.

I just have to find the courage to "desecrate" my old Technics which has remained completely stock all these years...

Some take out the transformer and put it in a "satellite" box. That will remove the mains hum vibrations.

In its place there will be large charge currents flowing in the elongated wires.

It would make more sense for the transformer to be accompanied by a bridge rectifier and reservoir capacitors.

It comes highly recommended from me.

https://precisionsoundlab.com/products/eps-01markii-1210-upgraded-linear-power-supply-for-technics-sl-1200 - https://precisionsoundlab.com/products/eps-01markii-1210-upgraded-linear-power-supply-for-technics-sl-1200

It's very good to my ears, and it's made by a guy who is known as the most reliable vintage Technics repairman in Italy.

I almost bought the external RCA connector box from them, but it is very expensive.

All mods done on my SL1200 are reversible, if I ever wanted to go back to an original deck.

CageyH wrote: It certainly looks well thought out. A relatively neat installation - neater than the LDA version for sure, but I am puzzled how you connect it to the main PCB without soldering?

It uses spring-pressure clamps like the ones that were sometimes used for connecting power signal cables to speakers for power. And for connecting to the PCB, it includes a pass-through plug.

If you trace the circuit board you will see that the positive of the rectifier goes to the voltage regulator circuit and then reservoir capacitor is connected as an afterthought, which is not a good idea.

The reservoir capacitor positive ought to go direct to the bridge rectifier positive.

Likewise the reservoir capacitor negative ought to go direct to the bridge rectifier negative.

So, the regulator board goes in the space left by the transformer and this supply to the Technics circuit connects to the stylus illuminator connector block (brown and orange wires), using a "piggy back" adaptor.

Interesting.

I reckon that by taking the 1A fuse out and desoldering the two blue wires to pins 1 and 2 on the main board, and screwing them into a two way terminal block for safety; then an external 39.2V regulated DC supply can be connected to pins 1 and 2, either way up as the next item on the board is a bridge rectifier.

What would it cost?

A suitable transformer is a "Nuvotem Talema 115 V ac, 230 V ac, 2 x 18V ac Toroidal Transformer, 50VA 2 Output" £42.74

You'd also need a box to put it in; a bridge rectifier; a reservoir capacitor; some sort of voltage regulator which might be a series pass transistor and a suitable Zenner on its base; and a 1A fuse.

It might be possible for £100 in parts.

They offer a solder free installation, but at a premium price.

I was happy with my linear PSU, designed and built by a respected designer at half the cost.

Graham Slee wrote: I was thinking about how I would do it for myself and how much it would cost me.

Recently retired, but still the active tinkerer, I see! :-D

I guess with a larger reservoir capacitor the rectified voltage will have less ripple so less chance of (internal) regulator dropout. In which case, the Technics transformer could be used outside the turntable instead of buying one.

If the DC is connected to the a.c. pins (1 and 2) it will still be DC the other end of the Technics bridge rectifier, bar 1.2V due to two diode drops. And it doesn't matter if it's connected "wrong" polarity, as the bridge rectifier on the board turns it the right way up regardless.

I'm just hoping the donor SL1200 I bought to refurbish two others has the transformer left in.

In which case, I might be able to build it as a "scrap box special" and therefore at no cost. 

Trying to move this topic back on thread -

We are faced with three variables in obtaining an "out of this world" experience from a vinyl record.

The cartridge

The turntable (including arm)

The phono stage, amplifier and speakers.

(should that have been six variables?)

It would therefore be unfair to pick just one item to blame.

Out of the above I understand the phono stage and amplifier the best, because that's been my job (vocation) for a major part of my lifetime.

All of that is actually amplification so depends on the comprehension of amplification.

A 1-volt signal is easy to amplify because it doesn't require much gain in terms of voltage and current, to turn it into a speaker driving signal.

A 5 milli-volt output magnetic cartridge is more difficult because it requires 200 times more amplification than a 1-volt signal.

Noise and interference creep in, because 5mV is nearer to them than 1-volt.

But you must consider that the magnetic cartridge only outputs its rated voltage at one frequency. It has a frequency dependant output.

What doesn't help matters when trying to educate users is the cartridge frequency response plots which sometimes accompany a cartridge showing that it's flat.

It is not flat! The plot is "normalised".

The output of a magnetic cartridge rises at 20dB per decade, so let's try it...

At 5mV at 1kHz, therefore at a decade below, at 100Hz, its output is 0.5mV, and another decade below, at 10Hz, it is 0.05mV.

Therefore, at 50Hz its output is 0.25mV, and at 50Hz, that is the frequency of the electric mains supply.

The RIAA response of the vinyl record helps matters by placing a 12dB shelf in the middle of the frequencies, which boosts the low frequency end by 6dB, thus doubling the 50Hz output to 0.5mV.

The RIAA response of the vinyl record also applies bass boost from 50Hz, so as that is its 3dB inflection point, the actual output will be 0.7mV.

So that's not so bad. 0.7mV is nearly 3 times better than 0.25mV, which is helpful to dig out the 50Hz bass from the 50Hz interference.

Now moving coil...

These tend to be 0.25mV output at 1kHz, so if we follow the above math, then at 50Hz the output will be 0.035mV.

Now, let's take it a bit further, and consider quiet passages of music.

Transients can be up to 5 times larger, so we'll look at 5 times smaller, so divide 0.035mV by 5 and you get 0.007mV.

Now, are there any among you who have had to make an amplifier to measure temperature using a thermocouple? Most find it hard and have to filter out as many frequencies as possible so the temperature display doesn't flicker all over the place.

But you can't do that with music!

So, by removing sources of hum, such as the Technics transformer, yes, you're helping. But that still leaves the rectifier charging current in the wires from the transformer to the rectifier circuit you pop in there, and that's 100Hz. But at 100Hz the output is nearer 0.014mV on quiet parts.

And all the above is bad enough, but then there's the stereo ground loop, which is a whole different kettle of fish that isn't generally understood, but is responsible for the harsher sound. And you can chase it out of the phono stage, but if it exists in the amplifier, the phono stage can't correct that.

And that's why it's possible to get an "out of this world" experience using a ceramic cartridge...

One question, with such high output from the ceramic cartridge is some form of attenuation needed before input to phonoamp ( Accession(?

The 9TA stereo cartridge outputs 70mV approx. so you'd think it would just need to be padded down, and a 1 Meg resistor in series would take its output down to about 3mV.

Unfortunately that won't do the job.

A ceramic is constant amplitude, and a "modern" phono stage is for constant velocity pick-ups.

So, here goes me trying to explain how they work in an easily understood manner...

The ceramic shares one thing with an electronic cig lighter. Apply pressure to a crystal and it outputs a voltage.

The crystal used in a ceramic is lab grown, a piezoelectric material, called lead-zirconium titanate (see: http://www.roger-russell.com/sonopg/sonopc.htm - http://www.roger-russell.com/sonopg/sonopc.htm - warning: not secure)

Being "rock" it doesn't conduct but behaves like a capacitor, and in this case is about 600 pico-farads, +/-10%.

So, the bass response is decided by the input impedance of the amplifier it's connected to.

If 1 Meg like the grid resistor of an old valve input, the bass frequency response is

1/2pi * 0.0006 * 1 = 265Hz (-3dB), which is sh*t!

What is needed for the correct reproduction of an RIAA record - remember, it has bass boost turning over at 50Hz - is 

1/2pi * 0.0006 * 50 = 5.3 Meg!

For most domestic situations where small loudspeakers are used, especially bookshelf's, then  a 4.7 Meg input impedance is OK.

But, how do you get that? Perhaps a valve input could be run with a 4.7 Meg grid resistor? I don't know because I'm not red-hot at valves.

What I did was to make a preamp of small gain, using a JFET input stage op-amp. A TL071 would do (TL072 is the dual version).

So, if you all want me to scribble a circuit diagram I'll be happy to oblige.

Now, the point about constant amplitude is it's already flat. So here the mid frequency shelf of the record comes in. When looked at as constant amplitude that shelf represents a 12dB cut from 500Hz to 2122Hz.

So, without the preamp compensating for that, it's like having a dull top-end.

Therefore, you'll need some NFB EQ to give some boost from 500Hz and then tail it off at 2122Hz.

Around 10kHz, the cartridge loses it. It's crosstalk is about the worst it gets, and so it cannot paint as precise a stereo image as good as a magnetic, but it isn't that far off.

But the cartridge itself isn't affected by mains frequencies because it isn't inductive, so it might well sound cleaner in the bass region.

Whenever we get on to subjects that could have happened, but were blocked every which way possible, it makes me think of Black Sabbath's "Lord of This World."

PZT (lead-zirconium titanate) would make for an excellent phono cartridge, and make life easier for the vinyl listener, but is lead, and lead is banned (except for rainwater ducts on roof's) because, as waste in landfill, it reacts with rainwater and pollutes the ground (so why is it used for rainwater ducts?)

Let me explain something about microphones you may not know about.

In any venue where there's an induction hearing loop, a dynamic microphone can make that hearing loop have howl-round (feedback).

There is no acoustic coupling, so how's that happen?

A dynamic mic is a magnetic mic, and the induction loop is --- inductive!

So the signal is induced into the dynamic mic, and it howls round by mutual inductance.

And that's why venues with a hearing loop - an induction loop - don't use dynamic mics. They use condenser mics.

So you'd think that progress would have seen the magnetic cartridge bite the dust, because it so easily picks up hum, and we'd have ceramic cartridges by today.

However, as you know, CD supplanted vinyl in such a big way that there was no money left in developing things for vinyl further - just penny millionaires making magnetic cartridges and boasting how good they and their antiquated products are.

And I didn't mind too much, because I could make phono stages for magnetic cartridges, and that kept me gainfully employed. 

This is an answer to Mike (Mikeh), but it clarifies what I've been saying so I thought it was worth including it for all here:

Sonotone came up with a passive matching circuit to match up the ceramic cartridge with a magnetic cartridge preamp.

Does it work?

Ceramic bass depends on the CR filter made between the cartridge's source capacitance and the input impedance of the amplifying stage.

So, they reckoned by loading the cartridge more heavily, the bass would be cut at the same rate as a magnetic phono stage provides bass boost. Thereby equalising the cartridge using a lower impedance load.

Unfortunately the 9TA capacitance isn't very well channel matched.

Add to that the tarnish that builds up the rear plug and cartridge socket contacts, and the capacitance can be as low as 450pF on one channel and 650pf on the other (measured).

Therefore, the bass cut off varies considerably, and the stereo image is very imprecise.

The only way I managed to get good performance was to do a purpose made preamp for it, as implied in my earlier post.

The output of the preamp was line level, so then simply went to a line input on the amp or preamp.

I get the point about amplification of low voltages. In my work (automotive engineer), it can be a nightmare to process signals by suppressing noise while retaining accuracy. Even signals in the 2 V range!

So yes, that's always been one of my HUGE doubts about MC: how is it possible to process a 0.2 mV signal, to amplify it x1000 and still get something not only "usable", but which is supposed to sound better than the signal from a MM cartridge which only needs x100 (which in itself is already quite a feat)? All things equal, I would always choose a device that starts with a tenfold advantage in signal strength at the source, rather than the weaker one!

It baffles me: amplification is NOT free. If you amplify 1000x, you get ten times the noise and crap that you get by amplifying 100x, and that is even with the most perfect theoretical amp you could design on paper. With a "real" one, it would actually even be worse (bandwidth, phase margins, etc).

So, again, there's something fishy in the "MC is always better" line of thought that I too often read on some forums. If only for that extra 10x amp factor, there's something that doesn't convince me.

Yes, and the battery voltage severely drops according to loads, and to age of the battery due to increased internal resistance. So we have to compensate in the software for every sensor reading and every PWM actuator command, to take into account for voltage fluctuations. That's one advantage of doing things all digital, at least.

For sure, we have the advantage of dealing with much slower slewrates: usually we are dealing with 5-10ms sample rates, very often even with slower ones such as 100ms. Much easier than the bandwidth required by audio!

Controlling a temperature with such a small error? Crazy. The sensors themselves usually have a precision of +/- 1 degrees. And then you have cables, disturbances, and quantization. I would consider myself lucky with a global precision of +/- 2!!!!

The difficulty in EQ'ing a ceramic cartridge preamp is that nobody documented the "gain curve" as meticulously as they've done for magnetic cartridge equalisation.

We know that somewhere there is a 12dB difference between the bass region and the highs. That appears on every RIAA recording and is nothing to do with the cartridge response (there is also boost below 50Hz).

The +/-6dB, or half of the 12dB delta appears at 1kHz, so it should be easy to determine the +/-3dB points of inflection by drawing the slope on log-lin graph paper. That's true.

However, there cannot be a 6dB/octave (or 20dB per decade) slope in such a short range of frequencies that cover only two octaves.

Neither can it be that way on the RIAA recording.

But we definitely need the "best fit" or we'll have phasing problems which sound like distortion.

The commonly shown graph of RIAA EQ for a magnetic cartridge has slopes and flats that are a result of the cartridge's constant velocity output. The ceramic output has constant amplitude.

What's required is some mathematical formula to convert from CV levels to CA levels, and there is such a thing, but it's quite complicated for my old grey matter to get around.

The Sonotone response pen plot came off a test record. The result supposedly was via one of the circuits inlaid onto the graph. Both are pre-input passive networks which rely on the input stage loading (input impedance), and also rely on the cartridge capacitance itself.

We have a choice of where to put the EQ:

1. input network

2. NFB network

3. output network

So far, in my simulations it appears that the "network for ceramic input" is the most easily workable ( http://www.roger-russell.com/sonopg/sonopc.htm - http://www.roger-russell.com/sonopg/sonopc.htm ).

However, the simulation I ran for the values shown gave an early bass roll off, and the values I obtained for a much closer frequency response were a "mile" different.

The cartridge can be modelled by an a.c. voltage source in series with a 600pf capacitor.

Some might find the 600uuF etc, notation confusing, but a micro-micro farad is simply a pico-farad.

I must point out that this isn't universal for all ceramic cartridges - it just suits a 9TA - and a 9TA that has 600uuF (600pF) capacitance, because 10% either way will offset the bass +/-1dB between channels.

I'm having second thoughts about the input network.

The 12dB mid range "shelf"

The 50Hz bass cut compensation for the 50Kz RIAA bass boost

The response between the lower "flat" and the shelf centred on 1kHz

The response of the RIAA shelf between 1kHz and upper frequencies