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Detail?

Printed From: Graham Slee Hifi System Components
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Forum Name: Graham Slee Blog [sponsored by Cadman Enterprises Ltd]
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URL: https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5520
Printed Date: 20 Apr 2024 at 7:26am
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Topic: Detail?
Posted By: Graham Slee
Subject: Detail?
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2022 at 10:42am
We hear so much about detail but what does it mean?

How is it golden eared reviewers are able to retain that quotient of detail appraisal in time for their next review sample to turn up?

In the common language of England, WTF is detail?

I remember being "dragged" up the Odeon steps in my very early teens to watch The Sound of Music. Mam liked Julie Andrews, and OK, she was really clear and you heard every word sung.

I remember doing drawings at school, and being told to illustrate the detail in the feathers of the Jay (Garrulus glandarius - the Eurasian Jay so as not to be confused).

In tech drawing detail was used to illustrate a 2D drawing to give an impression as to the items real appearance, although, it was still a line drawing on paper - it could never look real!

At one time, listening to something, I was told it had great detail, and ever since I've thought of detail as all those mixed noises that can't be described as anything in particular, so when I read about detail, I think "noise" and at that point I stop reading.

And while I'm at it, what are crystalline highs? There are soluble and anhydrous crystals: table salt and washing soda being examples of soluble crystals; quartz and FeCl3 being anhydrous (but made by another process you can get hydrated ferric chloride).

Crystals, to me, are crunchy things, and before I forget, there's silicon carbide used for grinding and emery cloth.

If that's audiophilia, you can keep it! 


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That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps



Replies:
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2022 at 12:51pm
At the same time as a review waxes lyrical about great detail and crystalline treble, you sometimes find a complaint about shrill highs.

In audiophilia circles I've heard of lots of BS describing HF distortion and new words like sibaleance describing a kind of acceptable sibilance...

Since the earliest amplifiers engineers have struggled with sibilance and that's due to high frequency distortion. It is the reason for the "scratch filter" and that never worked either.

Why can't the industry admit it still struggles with HF distortion?

Ah, I know why. Because if you do, the idiot hi-fi buyer will blame your products instead of the culprit!

What people don't understand is that one product might overcome HF distortion but when paired with another product that hasn't, the result is HF distortion.

At least one reviewer did say "shrill highs spoil the enjoyment of music". So it is a known problem.

Some of us work virtually full time looking for the nth contributor to HF distortion, in the hopes of finding the ultimate cure.

Others are only in it for the millions.


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That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps


Posted By: Sylvain
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2022 at 4:57pm
For me, detail  is the shimmering of the brush around the rim of the drum , the whistle blow of the flute mouth piece, the attack of the guitar fret board, the breath of Sarah Vaugh...."autumn in London Town" to fell the warmth of her emotional content to give colour to give reality and to make Music live around me in my listening spot ..... 
The 'detail' is evident when I moved from ''budget' equipment of Rock and Ballads music to me subtle tone of jazz, african Jazz in acoustic instruments or the 1950'S American Folk and blues guitars and the reality of the instrument may it the Armonica or flute of the guitar .....you can feel the '' Yamaya'' or "'Fender''  and you can differientiate......the tone assisted by the "detail'' trait that the Amp, b i-polar or Mosfet or Valve or other transistors design configuration .......Detail is Important to my ageing ears and my cognitive impairment 


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2022 at 5:41pm
So right, Sylvain, and I was just about to move onto the different sounds that make up detail in my mind.

Crash, splash, ride, hat

There's a lot of cheap kit that will do boom-tssch, and cymbals just sound the same like high frequency white noise. HF distortion gets in the way.

Being able to hear each cymbal's timbre is delightful. Most drum kit backed songs feature a range of cymbal sounds which might be played in many different ways. A great way to pick out each cymbal is to watch a YouTube cymbal tutorial, which should explain the sounds of the crash, splash, ride, and hat cymbals. Then listen to some songs and try and pick out those sounds.

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That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps


Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2022 at 6:56pm
Originally posted by Graham Slee Graham Slee wrote:

We hear so much about detail but what does it mean?


In tech drawing detail was used to illustrate a 2D drawing to give an impression as to the items real appearance, although, it was still a line drawing on paper - it could never look real!
 
That take's me back, to my first job when I had to read a drawing. I've not had to do that now for well over 12 years. It was always hard work trying to tell someone that you don't look at an engineering drawing you read it.


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Reflex M, Solo (both with PSU-1) CuSat50, Lautus, Spatia & Spatia links cables. Ortofon Bronze.


Posted By: BAK
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2022 at 1:53am
I hear the detail better than ever on an all Graham Slee system...
 MAC computer wav files on USB played thru Majestic DAC
 to Proprius amps powering 97dB/1watt speakers... WOW ! all the "detail" !
  Supertramp - Even In The Quietest Moments album - 
   03 - Even In The Quietest Moments  
      "the music that you gave me
         the language of my soul" 

thank you Graham !


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Bruce
AT-14SA, Pickering XV-15, Hana EL, Technics SL-1600MK2, Lautus, Majestic DAC, Technics SH-8055 spectrum analyzer, Eminence Beta8A custom cabs; Proprius & Reflex M or C, Enjoy Life your way!


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2022 at 7:33am
The previous posts make the case for high fidelity being clear not over etched details or a shrill sound. Over the years I have noticed people associate 'detail' with treble or presence. It leads to bright trebly sometimes shrill systems not helped by recordings with exciters/enhancers. Detail is good but only if the music sounds natural not tilted towards the treble. FWIW I try to use the word clarity instead of detail with different instruments being audible in a recording and sounding real.




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Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: BAK
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2022 at 12:47pm
The Alan Parsons Project, Pyramid album, "03 The Eagle Will Rise Again" playback on USB input... 
better clarity of vocals and instruments' sounds,
especially between 100Hz and 2500Hz.

 On "07 Pyramania" the "yak-yak-yak-yak"
sounds like the voice is present, not just vocal notes.

 In the 1940's and 1950's, the telephone industry found the band of sound frequencies that are hardest to clearly reproduce were voice frequencies... from 100Hz to 3000Hz, what is considered "mid-range". 
By controlling and EQing the high and low frequencies , telephone designers were able to reduce distortion and make clearer voice communication.

 Graham's designs are focused on making the sound clarity come to life by controlling the high and low frequencies to remove their influence on the voices' and instruments' true sound... 
 while maintaining a full frequency response that is flat.


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Bruce
AT-14SA, Pickering XV-15, Hana EL, Technics SL-1600MK2, Lautus, Majestic DAC, Technics SH-8055 spectrum analyzer, Eminence Beta8A custom cabs; Proprius & Reflex M or C, Enjoy Life your way!


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2022 at 8:42pm
Well said Bruce. Sadly hifi does expose bad recordings as much as it rewards the good ones like the Pyramid album.



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Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2022 at 10:38pm
I was hearing things from my new CD player the other day that said to me, this is not as good a recording as I thought (Radiohead OK Computer) I wish I could hear the remaster before buying.
"Well said Bruce"


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Reflex M, Solo (both with PSU-1) CuSat50, Lautus, Spatia & Spatia links cables. Ortofon Bronze.


Posted By: BAK
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2022 at 3:45am
Originally posted by Fatmangolf Fatmangolf wrote:

Well said Bruce. Sadly hifi does expose bad recordings as much as it rewards the good ones like the Pyramid album.

There is very little, if nothing at all, that one can do to make a bad (or poorly engineered) recording sound any better.


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Bruce
AT-14SA, Pickering XV-15, Hana EL, Technics SL-1600MK2, Lautus, Majestic DAC, Technics SH-8055 spectrum analyzer, Eminence Beta8A custom cabs; Proprius & Reflex M or C, Enjoy Life your way!


Posted By: Sylvain
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2022 at 11:10am
Yes indeed ...i have learned by the beginning of the new century that CD' can be reproduced by many from the ''Original'' Cd not from the Master tape . The advent of CD copy machine became easily  and modestly price available. A copy from a copy cannot preserve the full impact and a second copy detail is missed with the cheaper machine  reproduction console. 
In Europe the have learned do disclose '' or describe  '''Original' copy on the packing. But I have learned to chose two particular CD' engineer audio production  C for Columbia and S for ....AND also the new upscale remastered of the new century with better engineering console .....makes a big hearing difference of CD reproduction from the early 1980's /early 90's Cds. 


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2022 at 11:39am
I think there are deliberately lofi recordings that are fine if you like the music. In contrast poor quality recordings or media don't improve.

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Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: peterb
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2022 at 2:31pm
Despite English being a word rich language it often falls short when describing the senses. Perhaps because different people can 'sense' the same thing differently, taste in particular.
I wonder if there will ever be a transducer that will convert sound into taste? 
That could be interesting, if bizarre!



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Peter
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Dual 505-1, Cyrus CD T, DIY 80W MosFet amp and PreAmp, 2xKEF 103.2


Posted By: Sylvain
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2022 at 5:23pm
yes good point  ...my taste some 25 years ago change from American folk and French ballads to Acoustic American and African Jazz and Blues SO new complete change of hifi gear and diminishing earring faculty causes me to invest a super tweeter and Nostalgia of a bygone era music cause me to tweak and tweak and tweak and hope.....Also one SYSTEM is too raw and another too smooth and subtle one system too impactful attack and another none existant but my taste buds in music is essentially rooted to the sound recorded to the appropriate part of my brain during teenage cognitive development '' acoustic drums and acoustic guitars and rudimental instruments but beautiful sounds to me ....


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2022 at 6:58pm
That is good. Our hifi systems can be adapted to suit our hearing as we age. A little treble boost by electronic EQ or added tweeters can help us to keep enjoying the detail in the music.

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Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2022 at 7:28pm
Did I hear mention of tone controls? Wink

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That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps


Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2022 at 7:40pm
Originally posted by Graham Slee Graham Slee wrote:

Did I hear mention of tone controls? Wink
I don't have them on my ampLOL


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Reflex M, Solo (both with PSU-1) CuSat50, Lautus, Spatia & Spatia links cables. Ortofon Bronze.


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2022 at 8:41pm
I sense a wicker man moment.

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Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.



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