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Bi-Wire speakers

Printed From: Graham Slee Hifi System Components
Category: Cables and Interconnects
Forum Name: Interconnects for Turntable and Headphone
Forum Description: Technical Q&A, hints and tips
URL: https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5485
Printed Date: 23 Feb 2024 at 12:24am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Bi-Wire speakers
Posted By: lfc jon
Subject: Bi-Wire speakers
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2022 at 2:21pm
I was just reading up on whether to bi-wire your speaker or not. The last time I up graded my cables the shop said I would hear a bigger difference if I spent more on  better cables than bi-wire my speakers with my existing cable. I also asked if I needed to buy the same cable to bridge the speaker terminals to which they replied they didn't think it was necessary to do so (they do sell bridging cables) I took their advice and got better cables and didn't bother with bridging cables.
What's your thoughts on this subject as there seems a lot for and against bi-Wiring, There seemed to be more for spending the same money on better cables. After the turntable up grade the next up grade will be a pair GS speaker cables.


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Reflex M, Solo (both with PSU-1) CuSat50, Lautus, Spatia & Spatia links cables. Ortofon Bronze.



Replies:
Posted By: discrete badger
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2022 at 6:00pm
From my experience, having experimented with this, your shop is offering very good advice.



Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2022 at 6:31pm
After years of experimenting with speaker cables, I eventually settled on the Spatia design, so named because it gave me the spatial impression I'd always wanted.

Then came John C and Leo suggesting I use links made from the same cable, and I turned round at them and said the B-word, complete with exclamation marks!!!

I had found absolutely no difference whatever I used: gold plated solid links, tri-rated wire, mains wiring wire, all the multi-stranded stuff, just about anything that would conduct.

So, I said, "go on then, but there won't be any difference at all", repeating that it was all a load of (B-word again) for such a short few inches of connecting wire. I mean, I thought they were taking the (P-word).

So they connected the two sets of terminals on the back of my LS3/5a's using offcuts of the Spatia internal cores, which they incidentally had marked the direction (more B-word I thought).

I played a few different tracks and turned round at them and said (the F-word) off! Why? Because they were right.



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That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2022 at 7:16pm
Basically the link is just an extension of the cable so its direction should matter even though the length is short.

It would be like taking a length of Spatia cable, cutting a small section off the end, turning it the other way, soldering it on and then expecting it to sound identical to the original.


Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2022 at 7:24pm
I must admit I did have one set of speakers Bi-Wired but never single wired them to see if there was any difference same thing with bridging cables never tried it, I was only going on the advice I was given which at the time seemed good. From what I was reading from others experiences with Bi-Wiring it all depends on what speakers you are using as some did say they got good results from one but made no difference with others. The debate on bridging was even bigger and again seemed speaker dependant. As for Bi-Wiring the common ground was if you had a set budget you were better off spending it on better single cables than spitting your budget on two sets of cables for each speaker. This leads me to think, you have to experiment and see if it works for your speakers OR not.
What you found Graham was interesting, do you think that any speaker cable for bridging will do or does it have to be the same cable your using to connect your speakers from the amp? 


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Reflex M, Solo (both with PSU-1) CuSat50, Lautus, Spatia & Spatia links cables. Ortofon Bronze.


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2022 at 9:18pm
Originally posted by lfc jon lfc jon wrote:

What you found Graham was interesting, do you think that any speaker cable for bridging will do or does it have to be the same cable your using to connect your speakers from the amp? 

To be honest I wouldn't know. It just happened this way using the Spatia, and that's how it's stayed ever since.


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That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2022 at 9:59pm
On bi-wiring it will depend on your system but four decent cables will cost more than two obviously. I recommend the Spatia cables and the Spatia links, and they sound even better if you run the arrows from source pointing towards the speakers.

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Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: TheScorpionsTale
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2022 at 10:20pm
Originally posted by discrete badger discrete badger wrote:

From my experience, having experimented with this, your shop is offering very good advice.



Jon, I would agree with discrete badger's reply and your dealer on this. I once bi-wired a pair of KEF floorstanders I used to own. The result was spectacularly awful, as if out of phase. At first I thought I must have made a lash-up of the connections, but I hadn't. I soon returned them to single wiring.

My present speakers have no facility to bi-wire. I don't know if others would agree, but it's my impression from reading reviews that fewer speakers offer the facility to do so these days.


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Graham

SL1200 II with SME M2-9R and various carts / Revelation M with PSU-1 / Cyrus amp, CD and streamer / Kralk Audio BC30-3 Floorstanders / Bitzie and Lautus USB


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2022 at 10:32pm
Not forgetting that inductor-less output amplifiers change phase and gain margins with long high capacitance speaker cables, and so with two lots they're bound to give a different sound.

Some could even blow Shocked


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That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps


Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 26 Jun 2022 at 8:41am
To be honest I wouldn't know. It just happened this way using the Spatia, and that's how it's stayed ever since.
[/QUOTE]
I was going to try it out as I thought I had my old cables but I haven't.
I was talking to mate last night on this subject. He found Bi-Wiring works with his new speakers but had tried it out on the old ones and he said it made no difference, he also said he had used the same cable to bridge his old speakers and the results were vary good.


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Reflex M, Solo (both with PSU-1) CuSat50, Lautus, Spatia & Spatia links cables. Ortofon Bronze.


Posted By: discrete badger
Date Posted: 26 Jun 2022 at 8:50am
Originally posted by TheScorpionsTale TheScorpionsTale wrote:

My present speakers have no facility to bi-wire. I don't know if others would agree, but it's my impression from reading reviews that fewer speakers offer the facility to do so these days.

Agreed. And, notably, all of the best speakers that I have heard here have only offered a single pair of connectors. Bi-wiring was only possible on a few models at the (shall we say?) more value-orientated end of the market.

The LS50, as discussed elsewhere, is a good case-in-point. IMO it is in a different class to many "value-orientated" speakers I have heard in the past. It is not bi-wirable. No amount of bi-wiring (or even bi-amping) on less well-designed speakers is going to get equally good results, but bi-amping is likely to be more expensive.


Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 26 Jun 2022 at 11:30am
I have heard a system with & with out Bi-amping and there was an improvement with two amps but saying that it was not big and the cost of the 2nd amp was well into four figures and the man demoing the system said to us that Bi-wiring would probably get you near not by much, to the improvements that it made, when asked would you get an improvement on a system costing a lot less than this set up he said on a more budget friendly set up you were better off bi-wiring but as with bi-amping not all speakers respond well to it, he said that he had heard speakers that to his ears sounded worse with bi-wiring. The demo was worth the few hour that I was there as I leant a lot from him as he just didn't demo equipment he showed us how to improve on what we have like speaker placement, stands & racks.

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Reflex M, Solo (both with PSU-1) CuSat50, Lautus, Spatia & Spatia links cables. Ortofon Bronze.


Posted By: TheScorpionsTale
Date Posted: 26 Jun 2022 at 2:15pm
Originally posted by Graham Slee Graham Slee wrote:

Not forgetting that inductor-less output amplifiers change phase and gain margins with long high capacitance speaker cables, and so with two lots they're bound to give a different sound.

Some could even blow Shocked


Thanks Graham. I need 7 metres to reach my speakers due to the way the room is laid out, so doubling up probably wasn't helpful.


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Graham

SL1200 II with SME M2-9R and various carts / Revelation M with PSU-1 / Cyrus amp, CD and streamer / Kralk Audio BC30-3 Floorstanders / Bitzie and Lautus USB


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 26 Jun 2022 at 2:23pm
I found my MA Gold speakers sounded better bi-wired for about 4m but then decided to move the amps close to their respective speaker and I used 1m cables.

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Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 26 Jun 2022 at 4:32pm
Interesting what you say Jon about your speakers, I have Silver 100s I wounder if it would work them, as in the past I have read that certain brands of speakers do respond well to Bi-wiring and others don't, the artical I was reading did touch on this subject. I think first I will look at bridging as my priority on spending is going towards the turntable up grade and new glasses which I'm probably going to need after my eye examination next week.

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Reflex M, Solo (both with PSU-1) CuSat50, Lautus, Spatia & Spatia links cables. Ortofon Bronze.


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 26 Jun 2022 at 6:15pm

So the differences are down to the impedance/capacitance/inductance changes. With my kit LS3/5a a few years ago, I connected them conventional. Then I unscrewed the backs and connected both drivers to the same binding posts. With my more recent 12PW/7P combo several months ago, I bi-wired with the same cable type and length. When I pair the 11MS and CHR-120, I will bi-amp with two pairs of Proprius so that I can alter their levels independently without resistors and so the inductive effects of one coil don't affect the other coil. Can then double-DAC if I want to do digital filters.


Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 26 Jun 2022 at 6:49pm
With bi-amping we are talking mono blocks or if you figure two amps to work so that one works as a pre-amp so each amp is sending a different signal but with a single amp I can see why people are sceptical as to it's benefits of bi-wire as both cables are coming out from the same amp speaker turminal. When I first got into HiFi I will admit to thinking that you needed two sets of turminals to bi-wire your speakers as I thought at the time that was the only way you could do it and also I couldn't see how two cables coming from the same turminal could split the signal, I now know better.

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Reflex M, Solo (both with PSU-1) CuSat50, Lautus, Spatia & Spatia links cables. Ortofon Bronze.



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