Print Page | Close Window

HOW MUCH?

Printed From: Graham Slee Hifi System Components
Category: And the rest
Forum Name: Audio System Set-Up
Forum Description: Discussions about getting the best from your system (Digital section now moved)
URL: https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5427
Printed Date: 26 Mar 2026 at 8:54pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: HOW MUCH?
Posted By: Mikeh
Subject: HOW MUCH?
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2022 at 8:32pm
Having tried and subsequently built up a Slee based system, I considered the investment quite substantial but very good value for the quality of product and the resulting sound  quality.  I'm fully aware that vastly more can be spent on equipment to get that ever diminishing improvement but with well aged ears and hearing that I know tapers off above 13kHz I've always thought 'what is really the point'. Then I see one of the rags (HFN) publishes a review of a preamp costing the neck end of £140k with matching mono block power amps that measure output in kW! I really don't know whether to laugh or puke. Who on earth needs or can possibly hear the benefit of such obscene pricing? I appreciate that may be plenty of folk who can  afford such expense on a whim (oliagarchs?) but really is it worth the expenditure or purely status?

-------------
Mike

Technics sl1210g with Victor U-2 or Technics EPC-205C mk4
Accession MM, Majestic + Proprius, Solo ULDE
Innuos Zen mini mk3 streamer
Harbeth P3ESR XD paired with 2x REL t5x



Replies:
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2022 at 8:44pm
Indeed. Jaw-dropping high prices.



-------------
Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2022 at 9:51pm
A gold-plated turd will always be a turd.


Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2022 at 10:22pm
I once saw a CD player costing over £30000 must of been the best part of 30 years ago all I can remember of it was it was made by a French company

-------------
Reflex M, Solo (both with PSU-1) CuSat50, Lautus, Spatia & Spatia links cables. Ortofon Bronze.


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2022 at 4:20am
Yes, I guess you need diversity for 4kW off a 3kW outlet, and for the other channel? And is it really going to make the St. Georges neighbours happy? Perhaps they're for Black Sea yachts? Don't often see loop distortion mentioned apart from the 1965 Dinsdale, or my '70s topic. Seems the voltage stage is in Cordell's amp book ref. an AES paper. Good to invest in property, but £3m of arty metalwork? (and that worried look)



-------------
That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps


Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2022 at 7:19pm
Here's two more
Pivetta Opera "amp" cost $2.2m 120000 watt weighs 1.5 tonnes or a bit more affordable Pivetta Opera One $650000 power 14400 watt. when I read the power of these two I had to read it again. I found these when trying to find out what that CD player I mentioned costing £30000 was called and no I didn't find it


-------------
Reflex M, Solo (both with PSU-1) CuSat50, Lautus, Spatia & Spatia links cables. Ortofon Bronze.


Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2022 at 7:30pm
Ok for a bit of Stadium Rock, if you live a couple of miles away, or perhaps they're for earthquake simulation.LOL
Never seen any HiFi loudspeakers that would cope with that power.


-------------
Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it.


Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2022 at 8:15pm
Ian
I was thinking what you would play though it, It would have to be a very good CD player, streamer, Turntable & Reel to Reel. It reminds me of the old computer adage, rubbish in rubbish out. It's not going to make a mp3 file sound any better is it!!
It's only going to be as good as the recorded material.
As you said what loudspeakers can handle that sort of power, I don't know of any.
It's like they say, they wouldn't make it if they couldn't sell it and the way I look at it they are only ripping off the rich & gullible.


-------------
Reflex M, Solo (both with PSU-1) CuSat50, Lautus, Spatia & Spatia links cables. Ortofon Bronze.


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2022 at 8:57pm
It's like the vintage Sennheiser Orpheus and modern HE-1 headphone systems. Both cost tens of thousands. Rich people like to feel important. Although not cheap either, $4000 MySphere 3 takes a dump on both. K1000 costs much less and gives most of the performance of MySphere. Expensive but affordable for those who care enough to save up and can do so.


Posted By: RichW
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 10:18am
HFN is generally a well written & interesting mag but I often scratch my head & wonder who their target
readership is. I often feel that it isn't the likes of me.







-------------
Majestic/Enigma, Accession MM & MC.


Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 4:16pm
I can’t remember the last time I looked at a HiFi mag.
I used to buy the What HiFi awards editions when looking for a new bit of kit, but I soon learnt the error of my ways.


-------------
Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.
Funkified SL1200 Mk.II, BB3, Firebottle Kin , ADI-2 DAC FS, Modulus 686, PD-S703, Solo UL, Triangle Antal EZ


Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 6:37pm
I use to buy What HiFi regularly, especially around the time I was looking to up grade and then I'd stop buying it for a while after I'd up graded. I have not bought a HiFi mag for sometime now or even any mags I find them vary expensive and most of the pages are adverts anyway. I sometimes buy the weekly car mags but only if there is something of interest to me. I find that most HiFi mags seem to review high end stuff now a days Ok if you like reading about stuff you'll only ever afford if you win the lottery. I can read about high end HiFi online for free. I have to wonder who buys an amp costing $2.2m or for that matter 2 or 3 hundred thousand pounds and as I said it's only going to be good as the recorded material that's played thought it. Talking good recordings as any of you ever listen to a Reel-to-Reel tape, another thing that's expensive if you buy pre recorded tape

-------------
Reflex M, Solo (both with PSU-1) CuSat50, Lautus, Spatia & Spatia links cables. Ortofon Bronze.


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 7:35pm
I still buy HFN and feel good about my own spending when I read about the very high prices. Some good articles in every issue. Also I like their vintage gear reviews.

But back to topic the high end gear is incredibly expensive.


-------------
Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 7:35pm
On ebay. Nakamichi Dragon cassette player just been serviced cost £4995.

-------------
Reflex M, Solo (both with PSU-1) CuSat50, Lautus, Spatia & Spatia links cables. Ortofon Bronze.


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 7:55pm
They are very good but five grand is steep.

-------------
Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 8:22pm
From a rational scientific perspective, what justifies such high prices? What are the unique selling points and do they actually matter? Some niche products have to be expensive as the scale of manufacture is small. However, for others, it seems to be: All the gear, no idea.


Posted By: Mikeh
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 9:06pm
There can only be a select band of individuals who have the opportunity to compare uber expensive equipment, so how can any mear mortals tell whether a £100k amp sounds 'better' than a £10k,, with all the ancillary equipment.  I'm not so sure I would understand what 'better' means, given individual hearing, room acoustics and personal preferences come into play.  To me when I listen to live recordings and I can hear the venue acoustics, I reckon that's getting pretty close. If I can listen to complex  mixes and determine the different musicians or singers then that makes it complete.  
Would the gross guitar amp distortion from Velvet Underground sound any 'better' with .001% thd improvement, nah. Listen  to the music and enjoy it.


-------------
Mike

Technics sl1210g with Victor U-2 or Technics EPC-205C mk4
Accession MM, Majestic + Proprius, Solo ULDE
Innuos Zen mini mk3 streamer
Harbeth P3ESR XD paired with 2x REL t5x


Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 9:24pm
I think it has little to do with quality of sound reproduction. All it confers on the proud owner is bragging rights.

-------------
Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it.


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 9:49pm
I've never seen the value in spending massive amounts of money on pre-made speakers. This is because more attention always seems to be given to making the enclosure attractive and luxurious rather than developing driver technology to be the very best it can.


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 9:53pm
Yes there is probably the appeal of owning the best money can buy. Before we get on moral high horses don't we all enjoy saying we got a bargain in a sale or second hand?

-------------
Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: discrete badger
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 11:17pm
The price for the Nak is understandable - rarity value.

Nobody is making any more of them and they are a piece of cassette deck engineering history. I doubt anybody is buying these machines as a cost-effective record/playback option by modern standards. They're buying them simply because they want one and they can afford it. Function is secondary. The analysis being applied is similar to appreciating a limited-edition artwork to hang on the wall, not a practical piece of audio equipment.


Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2022 at 10:40am
Originally posted by Fatmangolf Fatmangolf wrote:

Yes there is probably the appeal of owning the best money can buy. Before we get on moral high horses don't we all enjoy saying we got a bargain in a sale or second hand?

Opens can of worms…

The best money can buy? Surely that would be the audio equipment that measures the best? 

Or would it be the equipment that sounds the best? 

Or would it be the equipment that looks the best?

Wink

I think stuff like the equipment linked to is bought by premiership footballers etc. 
Output measured in kW, when most listening is done at around 1W (as Graham stated recently on another thread).


-------------
Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.
Funkified SL1200 Mk.II, BB3, Firebottle Kin , ADI-2 DAC FS, Modulus 686, PD-S703, Solo UL, Triangle Antal EZ


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2022 at 12:29pm
Kevin just hit the nail on the head. What does the buyer care about most? Appearance, sound performance or impressive measurement.

If I could only have one, I know which one I would choose.


Posted By: discrete badger
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2022 at 6:19pm
A slightly different perspective on: Is it worth it? 

For me, the question (for a £100k amp) can be seen as a larger-scale version of Genera vs Accession.

Both are phono amps. One has fewer compromises than the other, which is at a lower price point.

Each potential purchaser has to make the decision as to which is more suitable for them and their budget. (Or perhaps one of the amps in between, the principle is the same)

How do we advise them to make this decision? By listening. Then they will know whether the extra cost is "worth it" - for them.

They may say "all Phono amps sound the same". We would say - that's a myth. Try listening.

They may say "no one can justify spending £1k on a phono amp". We would say - that's a myth. There is a market for these products, so some people can justify it.

They may say "everybody making a £1k phono amp must be just taking their customers for a ride". We would say - that's a myth. Maybe some are, but in this case look at the engineering effort which went into this product, and look at how delighted customers are with it.

They may say "I could buy the components from RS for £5.99 and build it myself". We would say - go ahead then, but it won't be an Accession.

They may say "A phono amp costing £1k can't possibly sound that much better than one costing £132". We would say - have you actually heard the £1k amp? Try listening, then you will know whether it does sound that much better - for you. If it doesn't, then hurrah - you just saved nearly £900.



Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2022 at 6:37pm
seen another Dragon for sale this one so the seller says is unused, this one is going for £8312 and they are giving you a two year warranty and to record on it how about spending £28 for five  blank TDK 60 mins tapes

-------------
Reflex M, Solo (both with PSU-1) CuSat50, Lautus, Spatia & Spatia links cables. Ortofon Bronze.


Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2022 at 7:05pm
You can buy a pair of cables for $40k, so £8k on a tape deck seems like a bargain.

-------------
Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.
Funkified SL1200 Mk.II, BB3, Firebottle Kin , ADI-2 DAC FS, Modulus 686, PD-S703, Solo UL, Triangle Antal EZ


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2022 at 7:31pm
Originally posted by Ash Ash wrote:

Kevin just hit the nail on the head. What does the buyer care about most? Appearance, sound performance or impressive measurement.

The high price, perhaps?


-------------
Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2022 at 7:35pm
And I agree with discrete badger about making your choice at your price.

-------------
Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2022 at 7:39pm
The Laws of diminishing returns. We all know about this when it comes to HiFi, just over five years ago when I bought a complete system I asked the dealer about the CD player and could I improve on it, the answer was yes but I would be looking at a 75% increase in price for a small sound improvement. I know this is relative but when spending upwards of say £100000 on a amp you are probably talking nearer £300000 to get a small improvement so what I'm trying to say is, there has to be a point where what something costs, you are not going to hear any difference. Is a amp costing $2.2m going to sound a lot better than one costing $500000. How would someone even with trained ears be able to say yes I can hear a difference.

-------------
Reflex M, Solo (both with PSU-1) CuSat50, Lautus, Spatia & Spatia links cables. Ortofon Bronze.


Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2022 at 8:06pm
I now have one of the “best measuring” DACs feeding one of the “best measuring” preamps paired with one of the “best measuring” power amplifiers.

The jury is still out on if it sounds better than my hybrid preamp with the same equipment.
Sure, you get to hear the recording, warts and all.
Is it more musical? Do I prefer it?

You also need to bear in mind that one of the most important factors in a good sounding system is more difficult to get right - the speaker/room interface. Mine is far from perfect.


-------------
Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.
Funkified SL1200 Mk.II, BB3, Firebottle Kin , ADI-2 DAC FS, Modulus 686, PD-S703, Solo UL, Triangle Antal EZ


Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2022 at 8:45pm
Kevin
 I agree with you.
Where you have your HiFi can and does make a difference, I have had to make compromises you have probably had to do the same. My listening room as to have other uses one of which is the TV. I do have my speakers out into the room where they sound best but I do have to move them when my HiFi is not being used. It would be nice to have a dedicated listening room, when spending mega money on HiFi you'll only get the best out of it with such a room. I have a mate that has a dedicated listening room but even this is a compromise one of which is the size and shape, his speakers can't be put in the ideal place or he can't get in or out of the room. It also has to double up as a guest room. But he does say it's better than nothing "his wife hates his type of music"
I would like to know what a mega money system sounds like "something costing hundreds of thousands"  Where's that lottery win"


-------------
Reflex M, Solo (both with PSU-1) CuSat50, Lautus, Spatia & Spatia links cables. Ortofon Bronze.


Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2022 at 9:27pm
When I retire, I want to put a log cabin in the garden. The plan is that this will become my listening room. That way I don’t have to compromise on anything. It will be my space, in which I can do what I like.

-------------
Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.
Funkified SL1200 Mk.II, BB3, Firebottle Kin , ADI-2 DAC FS, Modulus 686, PD-S703, Solo UL, Triangle Antal EZ


Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2022 at 9:44pm
NICE



-------------
Reflex M, Solo (both with PSU-1) CuSat50, Lautus, Spatia & Spatia links cables. Ortofon Bronze.


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2022 at 9:47pm
I will always approach speaker setup as nearfield so I can implement proximity effect rather than box effect. No high SPLs needed. The transition point between headphone and speaker gives the best results IMO. Don't have to wear anything on the head, frontal enough for true depth and binaural image, no large excursions encouraging driver breakup, bass extension not solely dependent on driver loading and box dimensions, can eliminate complex crossovers and multi-way. Never liked the traditional approach much. All my money goes on the driver/s then I dress it like a peasant.



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net