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Open baffle speaker driver array

Printed From: Graham Slee Hifi System Components
Category: And the rest
Forum Name: Transducers, Speakers, Mics...
Forum Description: Interested in bi-amping, tri-amping, crossovers, speaker design, miking techniques, EQ - the list goes on
URL: https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5365
Printed Date: 16 Apr 2024 at 7:33pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Open baffle speaker driver array
Posted By: Ash
Subject: Open baffle speaker driver array
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2021 at 6:35pm
I don't like listening to music with headphones as much as I used to. Since trying a pair of Mark Audio Alpair 11MS on cardboard open baffle, I feel that speakers are finally capable of replacing headphones in my system. Even the MySphere 3.1, despite its brilliance, is not enough to convince me otherwise and that is a lot of money that I can free up if I sell it.

The 11MS is a decent physical size but it would be great to have more of them to move more air for less excursion. How do I go about wiring up multiple speakers in a series-parallel arrangement so the Proprius can drive them and each speaker driver sounds the same individually? Would I be able to increase bass output with more drivers if I EQ other regions of the audible range down?

EQing an "unrestricted" (no box) single suspension speaker array to a roughly flat response at close proximity should easily replace headphone listening. Proprius dials at 9-10 o'clock and Majestic dial up high should make speaker hiss insignificant. I am open to the idea of more than one pair of Proprius and more than one Majestic DAC.



Replies:
Posted By: discrete badger
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2021 at 8:28am
Paralleled multiple full-range drivers probably won't yield satisfying results (there's a good reason why most speaker designers have settled on one driver per frequency region, except in the bass). Adding bass-only drivers in a line array is more likely to be an improvement, but there would probably need to be crossovers and the amp will have to cope with the low impedance in that region.

On the single existing driver, bass EQ might increase the extension a little, and with nearfield listening there is a little power and excursion available to spend on this. But the 11MS is not intended for high power handling or excursion, so moderate volumes only, and getting down to the 30s is going to be a significant ask.

Sticking with the same driver, the best bass results are going to come from loading it appropriately for bass, but then we're into reasonable size cabinets, loss of the open baffle qualities, and probably loss of the ability to use it on a desktop.

So I'd be tempted to try adding a small, well-integrated active subwoofer. The single-driver open baffle qualities will remain and flat extension to the high 20s should be possible, and the electrical adjustments already available on the subwoofer will prove invaluable in achieving good integration.



Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2021 at 7:05pm
Thanks. I bought a second pair of 11MS last night, just so I can play around with low end extension. I know it is not a dedicated woofer but I want to stick with mono-suspension cones for bass speed and purity. I might have to acoustically load the bass 11MS cones slightly to assist bass dB SPL but I don't want to compromise too much. Close proximity, open baffle, shallow cone profiles. I prefer the emittance pattern of the metal coned Alpair drivers over the paper too. Will be using the speakers close to the ears a little like the AKG K1000 splayed out drivers but want to mount them on telescopic flexible stands to suspend them in front of the head. (This is a substitute for headphone listening after all and I don't want room acoustics influencing the sound). I am a bit uhh weird, I know.

EDIT - they seem to be called gooseneck stands, like what they do for microphone positioning. Would be great to have it thick/hollow enough to thread a Spatia cable through it hmm.


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2021 at 9:09am
Graham, any chance of a tone control or equalizer DAK board for correcting speaker peaks and troughs?


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2021 at 9:47pm
Graham, how easily could you produce a DAK tone control PCB for the digital domain? Or do you have a better suggestion for doing speaker EQ?


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2021 at 1:47am
First try

https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc?l=12&w=9.75&h=7.5&ft=true&r60=0.6 - https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc?l=12&w=9.75&h=7.5&ft=true&r60=0.6

Which is the acoustics of my workshop/listening room, paying attention to Bonello and Bolt-area.

Enter your own room dimensions (feet being easier than centimetres), and look at Bonello and Bolt-area again.

Also look at concentrations around 125Hz and 250Hz, and go to the "more about room modes and this calculator" link.

Because, if you find your room is awkward, I think you'll be at it forever and always dissatisfied.

As your music is all in digital files, a software graphic EQ would be the best way to go IMO.


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That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2021 at 2:03pm
I mainly want to correct the 11MS driver's mechanical response. Slightly raise the response between 6-7K, attenuate the response slightly at 8K, raise the response at the 350Hz dip, shelf down the 100-300Hz upper bass and reshape the bass section to get the result more flat. Will use a second 11MS purely for bass support. Well I might have two to four 11MS drivers for bass support actually. Open baffle or minimum enclosure. Close proximity. Will beat MySphere then I can sell it.


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 8:34am
One thing that has intrigued me about Alexa-type assistant products and bluetooth speaker products is the 360 degree sound radiation pattern, compared to the usual approximately on-axis stereo listening of a traditional hi-fi speaker setup. The speaker hardware in those products will be mediocre at best but is the idea of two downfiring sources into a radial emittance patterns potentially going to provide even better spatial imaging than the traditional layout. Has anyone tried making hifi Alexa-type stereo speakers with quality drivers and electronics?


Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 8:45am
https://www.duevel.com/en-gb -  https://www.duevel.com/en-gb

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Ifor
=====
Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair.


Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 9:26am
Some of the best speakers I have heard are the Linkwitz(?) mini.
They do need some space to breathe though. They are not open baffle, but they certainly do sound staging.


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Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.


Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 6:50pm
Ifor
I remember reading about them some time ago but there was not any review on the sound quality.


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Reflex M, Solo (both with PSU-1) CuSat50, Lautus, Spatia & Spatia links cables. Ortofon Bronze.


Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 7:51pm
There is a review on TNT.

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Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.


Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 7:55pm
Another one here:

https://www.hifinews.com/content/duevel-venus-loudspeaker - https://www.hifinews.com/content/duevel-venus-loudspeaker


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Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 7:57pm
They are well respected for natural sound.

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Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 8:59pm
Thank you for the information. Sadly, there isn't a desktop version. Very posh but I don't have the space for floorstanders. At 4K, I would buy a second Slee system and use a digital XO with a second driver pair. I will have to prototype something with card/cardboard or plastic.


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2022 at 11:10am
What are the limitations of driver arrays?

Say I want to increase my one driver per channel to four identical drivers per channel in a packed square arrangement on each side with a series-parallel wiring to keep the same driving impedance, what else electrically will change? I don't understand all the damping factor and inductance stuff. Discussion with Heinz Renner suggested there will be a loss of impulse response too...


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2022 at 7:02pm
Multiple signal paths would be one issue acoustically. Fine when the cones are within 1/4 wavelength e.g. four 100mm drivers in a square or a line 450-500mm high, compared to 1 kHz wavelength less than that...

And unless you are at the focal point with same length paths there will be some phase cancellations. You are using full range drivers so they will be putting short wavelength sounds but be a long way apart relative to wavelengths. You could align them on a baffle that curved or stepped towards you at the top and bottom I suppose.


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Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2022 at 7:33pm
I could use five 11MS drivers per side, each in a square arrangement with one driver in the centre of the square, all as close together on the baffle as their baskets allow.. The centre driver is operated full range with mechanical roll off. The four surrounding drivers would be for deep bass using a digital crossover. This would be a totally open baffle design with maybe just thin cloth covering to keep dust out. This would be a double-Majestic quadruple Proprius system. I would sell MySphere 3.1 to pay for it all. I'm not interested in headphones, nearfield speakers all the way. The depth is vastly enhanced.


Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2022 at 7:47pm
You could, but why would you want to?

What will 5 drivers give you, that one driver won’t for near field listening?
You would probably be better of with a different drive unit, in a different open baffle?


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Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2022 at 8:22pm
Completely mono-suspension so as mechanically free as possible, large radiating area for effortless dynamics, symmetrical layout for a symmetrical soundfield. Better than a huge slow subwoofer underneath a fast full-range.


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2022 at 8:34pm
That's good news  about the digital low pass filters so only the central driver is outputting middle and treble.

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Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2022 at 8:43pm
Something like that EQ'd could sound vastly superior to any headphone. Would move a lot of air for nearfield listening. People on here have frequently said that there is a lot of information in the deep registers that you don't necessarily hear but can feel, and can discern when it is taken away.


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2022 at 8:55pm
With an open baffle the problem will be front to back cancellation limiting the low end response. A wider panel may help.

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Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2022 at 9:03pm
I would have to be clever with baffle and wings or rely on the proximity effect.


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2022 at 9:06pm
Wings or an open backed box would help. So would some low frequency boost.

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Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2022 at 9:21pm
Full range drivers are a compromise. The frequency response graph shows this.
For the cost of ten 11ms drivers, I am sure you could find something better suited for an o/b speaker.

If you want to feel the low end, then there is no replacement for displacement.
The 11ms is just not going to cut it, and all bass drivers are not slow. You just need to find the right one.


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Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2022 at 9:41pm
It's not mono-suspension but I could use four CHR 120 drivers with a central 11MS. They are advertised as going down to 30Hz in a large box so open baffle in a small room should be doable.


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2022 at 9:41pm
Ash,  reinforcing Kevin's good advice a closed box with Qtc of 0.7 has an excellent transient response i.e. it is fast and it  will go much lower than an open baffle.



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Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: discrete badger
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 10:19pm
Agree - in my experience sealed box is the way to go for quick clean bass. But it's not too "popular" out there in hifi-land because reflex-loading gives the designer an easy way to get bass emphasis at lower power handling. But without great care it tends to emphasise the resonant frequency of the chamber leading to the so-called "1-note bass" and can sound flabby and slow. But not always - it's possible to do it right but it's just more engineering - some subwoofers even go as far as having multiple chambers with different resonant frequencies.

Incidentally, I've had really great results with the sealed boxes in my second system and quite serious levels of digital EQ (+10db) below rolloff (20hz-30hz in this case). But the sealed boxes in question have 12" bass drivers, the amp has 220w/chan and I listen at moderate levels, so there is plenty of unused voice-coil heating and cone excursion to exploit! I'm also using digital PEQ to tame some room and cabinet resonances. It shouldn't work as well as it does. I can switch in and out instantly for comparisons, and with no EQ they just sound like the lovely 1970's speakers that they are, enjoyable but not truly realistic. But with EQ they keep the nice midrange/treble but most of the mush disappears from the mid/high bass and true low-end extension arrives. They sound "big" and impressive, and the midrange has hugely increased clarity - a very welcome effect which I find always happens when the mid/high bass is tamed. 



Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2022 at 7:35am
I could put a CHR 120 in a big sealed padded cardboard box and only have the main 11MS on open baffle. These are lightweight cones and won't be slow even if loaded.



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