Print Page | Close Window

Beatles Mono vs. Stereo

Printed From: Graham Slee Hifi System Components
Category: Music
Forum Name: Music!
Forum Description: Because it's #AllAboutTheMusic
URL: https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5357
Printed Date: 23 Apr 2024 at 2:49pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Beatles Mono vs. Stereo
Posted By: CliftonHanger1
Subject: Beatles Mono vs. Stereo
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2021 at 5:42pm
I know this is age old topic and likely been posted previously. But just went through a phase of listening to Beatles in mono on vinyl. Gotta say - much prefer stereo for all eras. Maybe just brought up with the stereo listens but mono almost decreases my affinity for this great catalogue. Case in point: picked up a vinyl copy of the Mono Masters (2009) and was really struck by how much better and natural all songs sound in stereo. Love to hear other POVs.



Replies:
Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2021 at 7:00pm
I too was brought up with stereo but I do listen to music on a mono bedside radio (DAB) and yes I think it sounds more natural in stereo, In mono you seem to focus on one point in my case the speaker on the radio but when I listen to the HiFi I look through the speakers (in between) I'm not looking at the speakers, If that makes sense. In stereo there is more space, a more fuller sound  "I'm not on about bass here" I have a mate that likes to watch a film in stereo rather than in surround sound he says it is more natural, he uses his HiFi for the sound with two subwoofers. I must admit I have watch a film with him and compared the two and I found I preferred it in stereo, surround sound just didn't add anything to the watching experience to me.

-------------
Reflex M, Solo (both with PSU-1) CuSat50, Lautus, Spatia & Spatia links cables. Ortofon Bronze.


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2021 at 9:09pm
I prefer the stereo version of the remasters.

-------------
Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: fluddite
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2021 at 10:50pm
Originally posted by Fatmangolf Fatmangolf wrote:

I prefer the stereo version of the remasters.

Two issues here:

1) Mono vs. Stereo
As a famous Liverpudlian (1940-1980) once observed, “if you haven’t heard ‘Sgt. Pepper’ in mono, you haven't heard ‘Sgt. Pepper’”. And he (+ messrs McCartney, Harrison, Starkey and Martin Snr.), like Your Mother, Should Know. Ditto for everything up to December 1968: if the people making the music concentrated on the mono mixes and left the (often horribly panned) stereo to whichever spare engineering staff were doing the late shift at Abbey Road, it suggests that the mono is what they wanted heard. The fact that post-1970 repressings of Beatles LPs (the ones many of us grew up on, even before the 'Red' and 'Blue' compilations became the gateway drug for future generations) were pretty much exclusively stereo skewed all our "hi-fi" (now "audiophile" expectations) unless we were lucky enough to have older siblings/parents with mono originals - even then, the 1970s default assumption was that stereo must be better because "stereos" had two speakers. Come the 80s, it was Beatles CDs - only in stereo. So if we've heard the stereo versions as our LP/CD defaults for so long, we're (self included here) predisposed to think "that's what they sound like". For me, the 'Beatles In Mono' CD boxset of 2009 was a complete revelation in terms of coherence, vocal/instrumental balance and sheer oomph; the AAA mono LP remasters of 2014 slightly more so; those AAA remasters and (even better) some cleaned-up 1960s mono originals once I'd finally acquired a mono cart (AT33) more so again.

2) "Originals" vs. "Remasters"
Whatever the merits of mono vs. stereo versions of Beatles LPs, at least the original stereo pressings went out under the Beatles' collective imprimatur (i.e. all 4 + Martin Snr. were there to say yay or nay to whatever got issued and marketed). Once you start to stir in 1980s (and after) digital mastering - let alone the Martin  Jnr. approach of creating "a new mix that presents the album the way the Beatles would have done so... had they cared about making a proper stereo mix and had access today’s technology" (I'm quoting here -  https://www.beatle.net/sgt-pepper-stereo-remix-launch-party/ - https://www.beatle.net/sgt-pepper-stereo-remix-launch-party/ ) - it seems to me that you're opening successive cans of worms wriggling further and further away from what the Fab Four + Martin Snr. actually intended between 1962 and 1970. IMLTHO, Martin Jnr's "had they cared" is taking the piss Big Time.

So - older pressings (mono or stereo) best. In my opinion, mono beats stereo - the 2009 mono CD remasters are fine, the 2014 AAA mono LPs better, 1960s mono LPs in good nick best of all...


Posted By: fluddite
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2021 at 11:48pm
Originally posted by lfc jon lfc jon wrote:

I have a mate that likes to watch a film in stereo rather than in surround sound he says it is more natural, he uses his HiFi for the sound with two subwoofers. I must admit I have watched a film with him and compared the two and I found I preferred it in stereo, surround sound just didn't add anything to the watching experience to me.

I'm with your mate on this. Stereo is for people with two ears; in the 70s, we always used to say that Quadrophonic (remember?) was for people with four. By extension, modern multichannel home setups and - even worse ('cos you can't adjust the volume or any of the other settings) - their cinema equivalents must be designed for people with five ears. Or possibly seven. I blame Cinerama. Mind you, most movies released before the mid-1970s had wonderfully-mixed mono soundtracks, and that's how they should still be heard. After 1976, I blame Dolby Laboratories. Oh, and bloody Star WarsWink


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2021 at 8:19am
I chose my words carefully, thank you for expanding on the point I made. Panned mono to give a stereo is an art but only a small part the track content, if any, will be natural stereo with ambience and directional cues. We hear and can locate sound from all round us, thanks to those two ears. Generally the surround setups compensate for the limited field of vision when life is shown on a screen much smaller than our field of view.

-------------
Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: Aussie Mick
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2021 at 12:06pm
YES! Sgt Pepper’s in Mono all the way, for all of the reasons mentioned above!
Mick


-------------
Rega RP8 - Apheta 2 - Accession MC Enigma PS -Solo ULDE (Focal Utopia) - PS Audio M700 - Fical Kanta No2


Posted By: AlienRendel
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2021 at 2:35pm
I've got the mono vinyl box from 2014 and a full set (blue box +) of UK stereo pressings (plus the German MMT). After growing up on the U.S. stereo albums, I feel grateful to have both the stereo and mono mixes now.

-------------
Ortophon 2M Blue cartridge> Music Hall mmf-2.2le > Graham Slee V Era Gold (w/mono switch)> Kenwood AR-A5080> Paradigm Titan speakers


Posted By: patientot
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2021 at 4:26pm
I enjoy both stereo and mono mixes from the band. No comment on latter day remixes by Giles Martin as I haven't heard them and they are just not a priority for me to buy.

As others have said all over the place, in many cases the mono mixes of the Beatles 60s work sounds more cohesive because the stereo mixes are primitive and hard-panned. On headphones, some of the stereo mixes are almost unlistenable to me. I can really only enjoy them on speakers.

FWIW I think the EMI/UMG should cut the nonsense and keep the original stereo and mono mixes in print on all formats.


-------------
SL-1200 MK7 (modified) + Reflex M + PSU-1 used with AT150-40ML, AT VM95ML, Stanton 680mkII + Ogura, and Shure M35X cartridges.


Posted By: schumanesq
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2022 at 2:20pm
I grew up with mono until the late 50's, when stereo made its first serious appearance.  Generally, I agree that a good stereo recording sounds REALLY good and would trump most mono recordings.  Of course the rock based stereo records that we listened to early on were pretty awful sounding - due mostly to the mentality of just needing to release something in stereo.  Alot of it was gimicky, with panning left to right, etc.  My thought was always to seek out the stereo recordings regardless, as that was what represented the latest in audio technology at the time.  Yes, I was also into quad for some time!  It wasn't until years later that I found audiophile level mono recordings and marveled at what a great quality mono recording could really sound like.

As far as Beatles recording goes, the early Beatles stereo recordings again was pretty bad.  Totally limiting one track from the other - with no leakage between, can hardly be considered to be "natural".  We don't hear a live performance that way.  We hear the entirety of what is being played, along with the ambiance of the venue, be it an arena, a concert hall, or a recording studio.  Mono recording CAN capture that in great part, because the emphasis on the recording is capturing the whole of the sound and does not attempt to capture each instrument or voice, by itself.  Stereo recordins use a mulitude of microphones specifically aimed at individual sources and then mixed together dependent upon the expertise of the mixer's expertise.  Mono recordings typically use a much more modest number of mics, and again geared to capturing the sound in the room - with some localization (of course) of the central performer.

I have not heard the Beatles in Mono LP set, but am planning on securing the Mono Masters album soon.  It will be interesting to hear what those tunes sound like from a "quality" mono mastering, on modern equipment and better quality vinyl.   


-------------
Steve Schuman


Posted By: schumanesq
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2022 at 2:40pm
By the way, I do have the Abbey Road and Revolver LPs in Stereo and quite frankly, they sound pretty bad.  I hear a lot of compression and weak bass.  Now these are not the original pressings, so not the greatest quality to begin with and my suspicion is that better quality pressings would enhance the quality considerably.

-------------
Steve Schuman


Posted By: AlienRendel
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2022 at 3:08pm
The Beatles mono box from a few years back was very nicely done, in terms of mastering and pressing quality.  The quality of the mono mixes varies from album to album.

-------------
Ortophon 2M Blue cartridge> Music Hall mmf-2.2le > Graham Slee V Era Gold (w/mono switch)> Kenwood AR-A5080> Paradigm Titan speakers


Posted By: schumanesq
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2022 at 3:23pm
Yes, that is what I have heard as well.  

-------------
Steve Schuman


Posted By: fluddite
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2022 at 3:39pm
Originally posted by schumanesq schumanesq wrote:

I grew up with mono until the late 50's, when stereo made its first serious appearance.  Generally, I agree that a good stereo recording sounds REALLY good and would trump most mono recordings.  Of course the rock based stereo records that we listened to early on were pretty awful sounding - due mostly to the mentality of just needing to release something in stereo.  Alot of it was gimicky, with panning left to right, etc.  My thought was always to seek out the stereo recordings regardless, as that was what represented the latest in audio technology at the time.  Yes, I was also into quad for some time!  It wasn't until years later that I found audiophile level mono recordings and marveled at what a great quality mono recording could really sound like.

As far as Beatles recording goes, the early Beatles stereo recordings again was pretty bad.  Totally limiting one track from the other - with no leakage between, can hardly be considered to be "natural".  We don't hear a live performance that way.  We hear the entirety of what is being played, along with the ambiance of the venue, be it an arena, a concert hall, or a recording studio.  Mono recording CAN capture that in great part, because the emphasis on the recording is capturing the whole of the sound and does not attempt to capture each instrument or voice, by itself.  Stereo recordins use a mulitude of microphones specifically aimed at individual sources and then mixed together dependent upon the expertise of the mixer's expertise.  Mono recordings typically use a much more modest number of mics, and again geared to capturing the sound in the room - with some localization (of course) of the central performer.

I have not heard the Beatles in Mono LP set, but am planning on securing the Mono Masters album soon.  It will be interesting to hear what those tunes sound like from a "quality" mono mastering, on modern equipment and better quality vinyl.   

Agree with Steve on all of this - except the Quad! Wink  

Of course, the "mono" ambience thing gets (much) more complicated from Rubber Soul onwards, as increased multitracking/bouncing/idiosyncratic miking come into play - a tension played out (to my ears) over their last Mono LP release, The Beatles (e.g. Yer Blues vs Revolution 9), leading to the final dichotomy of the "back-to-basics" Get Back project (“OK, let’s track it… You bounder, you cheat!” - J. Lennon, 31st January 1969and the stereo-only Abbey Road. Hence the need for "the mixer's expertise" - where George Martin, the four Beatles (especially Lennon and McCartney) and the Abbey Road engineers were peerlessly innovative in mixing all these elements to mono, while only the on-duty engineers oversaw the stereo mix - presumably using the already-completed mono mix as the reference/starting-point. AFAIK, The only dedicated stereo mix overseen (and subsequently released) by the four Beatles and "Uncle George" remains Abbey Road...


Posted By: schumanesq
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2022 at 3:56pm
Getting back to Quad...

The thing that facinated me here was the "hidden" stuff that early quad matrixing was able to somehow isolate and gear toward the rear channels - basically the Columbia SQ approach a bit later on, but before such LPs were commericially so identified and sold.  To discover this sort of thing on unencoded LPs was amazing and offered a pioneering aspect to listening to records already in my possession.  I did not like the CD4 approach (requiring a different cartridge and demodulator device) of separating the recording into 4 distinct sound sources as the "gimickyness" I referenced previously was over the top.  Some of the CD4 (I believe it was Sansui primarily responsible for this approach) classical recordings sent the ambiance of the hall to the rear and that sounded pretty darn convincing.  Alas both approaches ultimately went the way of the Betamax and that was that... Until Surround sound came along...Wink


-------------
Steve Schuman


Posted By: fluddite
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2022 at 5:07pm
Originally posted by schumanesq schumanesq wrote:

By the way, I do have the Abbey Road and Revolver LPs in Stereo and quite frankly, they sound pretty bad.  I hear a lot of compression and weak bass.  Now these are not the original pressings, so not the greatest quality to begin with and my suspicion is that better quality pressings would enhance the quality considerably.

An interesting pairing! The mono and stereo mixes of Revolver (my favourite Beatles LP, and I would guess that of many others) concluded, according to the encyclopaedic Mark Lewisohn, on 22nd June 1966* - with George Martin and all four Beatles apparently present on the final day for both sets of mixes, thus disproving my previous assertions about after-the-fact stereo mixes, al least as far as this LP is concerned. Embarrassed Nevertheless, as Lewisohn also asserts apropos the Sgt. Pepper mixes, the Beatles "considered mono of paramount importance and so were always around for these, but were generally content to leave the stereos to George Martin and Geoff Emerick". Beatle involvement or not, I'd argue that the stereo pressings of Revolver vary from interestingly idiosyncratic to unsatisfyingly bifurcated on a track-by-track basis in comparison to the unified punchy/dreamy impact of both the original and AAA remastered mono pressings.

Abbey Road, on the other hand, seems to divide opinions on its stereo-only pressing. It was the view of the late lamented Ian MacDonald in Revolution in the Head that "Abbey Road is The Beatles' most technically accomplished album, its eight-track recordings filled with crystal-clear sounds, crisply EQ'd... The bass end which the group had been improving since 1966, is deep and rich" - certainly a view that me and my mates subscribed to in the 1970s, while also sharing MacDonald's subsequent judgement that the LP is uneven and often flatters to deceive compared to earlier efforts. The digital remastering for the first worldwide CD issue of 1987 - there had been some rare-as-hens'-teeth Japanese CD issues in 1983-84 - therefore sounded simultaneously both "too bright" and "too bassy" to these ears. Contrariwise, there's a large body of audiophiles who assert that original-through-1970s pressings of Abbey Road have been crucially lacking in the bass end ("weedy" is a judgement I often come across in this context) and favour instead any one or more of the following:

- the 1980 MFSL LP remaster ( https://www.discogs.com/release/728419-The-Beatles-Abbey-Road - https://www.discogs.com/release/728419-The-Beatles-Abbey-Road  - but see also this thread on Those Forums Wink: https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/mastering-flaw-on-mobile-fidelity-beatle-box.36865/ - https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/mastering-flaw-on-mobile-fidelity-beatle-box.36865/ )
- the aforementioned 1987 CD version ( https://www.discogs.com/release/11961230-The-Beatles-Abbey-Road - https://www.discogs.com/release/11961230-The-Beatles-Abbey-Road )
- the 2009 Guy Massey/Steve Rooke digital remaster ( https://www.discogs.com/release/9215524-The-Beatles-Abbey-Road - https://www.discogs.com/release/9215524-The-Beatles-Abbey-Road )
- the 2012 Sean Mcgee-cut LP ( https://www.discogs.com/release/4037087-The-Beatles-Abbey-Road - https://www.discogs.com/release/4037087-The-Beatles-Abbey-Road ) derived from those 2009 remasters
- the 2019 'Anniversary Edition' ( https://www.discogs.com/release/14186441-The-Beatles-Abbey-Road - https://www.discogs.com/release/14186441-The-Beatles-Abbey-Road  remastered by Giles Martin and Sam OKell. 

Envoi: all options are available (albeit at a price in some cases). I'll stick with my early-70s UK vinyl pressing as reflecting those Beatles/George Martin mixing choices from 1969. Of course, the larger question begged by all this is how far current and future generations discovering the Fab Four - as they surely must? - will be hearing "remixed"/"remastered" versions rather than (as I'd argue) Original Intentions. And yes - they'll probably be listening to whatever version via their phones and some crappy earbuds rather than a well-set-up cart/arm/TT and lovely GS hardware - but that's another topic, right? Wink

* My 8th birthday, as it happens. Unfortunately, however, I can claim no credit for either the mono or stereo mix of Revolver, having been too busy being inept with a football up the local rec...


Posted By: fluddite
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2022 at 5:56pm
Originally posted by schumanesq schumanesq wrote:

I grew up with mono until the late 50's, when stereo made its first serious appearance.  Generally, I agree that a good stereo recording sounds REALLY good and would trump most mono recordings.  Of course the rock based stereo records that we listened to early on were pretty awful sounding - due mostly to the mentality of just needing to release something in stereo.  A lot of it was gimmicky, with panning left to right, etc.  

Just wanted to add a comment on this - I know exactly what you mean (cf. those hard-panned stereo mixes of early Beatles albums) - and yet - as I've got older, I've found myself growing ever fonder of those late-60s/early 70s LPs where "woozy" panning is an essential part of the musical/sonic picture. Cases in point: the first three Hendrix LPs (the mono versions of these are also great, but mess with your head - in a good way! - slightly less), much of the '68-'72 Floyd output, large amounts of early '70s German "head" music, Arthur Brown's Kingdom Come and (a late outlier) Roxy's For Your Pleasure. My suspicion is that by 1973 the musical landscape was being shifted by the developing possibilities of hardware at both ends of the LP process (the proliferation of well-staffed 16- and 24-track studios + the boom in affordable Japanese stereo/hi-fi*), and that music "sounding good" (as in crisp/shiny EQ, full drum/bass/vocal mixes, fully integrated FX) on the average 2-speaker home setup became the priority. Hence the classic "demonstration" disc mentality of the 1970s: post-'72 Floyd, Steely Dan, Supertramp - and later Joan Armatrading and Rumours**. Of course, the (technical) crudity of much post-punk saw a revival of eccentric mixing/panning on the margins in the late 70s and early 80s (e.g. This Heat, Metal Box, The Flying Lizards)*** - but the commercial mainstream "sound" marched on, bolstered by digital recording and the rise of the CD. Impossible to imagine Dire Straits (or anybody else wanting to make a bestselling album in the 1980s or later) approaching Brothers In Arms with the sonic adventurousness of Hendrix on Axis: Bold As Love...

* I include both options as an acknowledgement that some will remain offended at the very idea that the mass-market Japanese products of the 1970s were ever "hi-fi". All I can say is that my first stereo (as opposed to mono "record player" - I had an old Hacker bought from my English teacher which I rather wish I'd kept) came from a shop with "hi-fi" in the name, and that the mix (Garrard/BSR turntable, Sony amp, Akai cassette deck, Wharfdale speakers) was probably not untypical for 1976. So: I called mine a stereo, but thought about it - particularly as I replaced various bits - as (a) "hi-fi"...

** Ironically, it was the mega-success (and subsequent cocaine-induced megalomania) of Rumours that enabled Lindsey Buckingham to go down precisely the pathways of "woozy"/eccentric mixing (and in newly-digital studios, yet!) alluded to above on at least parts of Tusk. Noticeably, they never ventured that way again...

*** Of course, the classic "marginal" music of the 70's and early 80's - and certainly the most innovative/"out there" in terms of mixing - was Reggae/Dub. Not coincidentally, a lot of this also had to do with a combination of sheer talent, primitive/homemade equipment and chemically-enhanced consciousness. IMLTHO, Hendrix might have felt a good deal more at home in Trenchtown than (as I've read posited by others of a more "hi-fi" persuasion) playing solos with Miles Davis or Steely Dan...



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net