For some time I have also had in mind the purchase of a mc cartridge in particular the Hana ML which has an output of O.4 mv which judging by the specifications of some mc cartridges is not particularly low although the Hana MH has an output of 2.0 mv. 

It occurred to me that at some point a cartridges output would be at a certain value as to not need a phono stage / pre amp step up transformer but what is this mystical voltage, there is no industry standard to refer to.

 Looking at the two Accession units they look to have the same setting choices, the mc unit is more expensive surely due to the step up transformer. 

Going to the Audio Note web site I note that no voltage output for the cartridge is given for the IQ3 for me to compare with the two Hana units. In stark contrast the Hana web site gives full side by side details for a prospective purchaser to view. 

I would be interested to hear from any owners who are running with an mc cartridge without a SUT and the details of manufacturer, voltages etc.

This withholding of cartridge output figures is terrible for consumers also some manufacturers will not state the output impedance of their phono stage / phono pre amps which would enable consumers to ensure they are a match for their pre amp input impedance specifications. (not G. S.)

There was a time when Rolls Royce would not specify the power outputs of their car engines, they pompously described them as adequate however with time the Society of Motor Manufacturers and other regulatory bodies changed this awful attitude to the consumer. I think it is more than time for a similar organisation to be formed for the protection of hi fi enthusiasts globally.

I hope I am not talking rubbish here through lack of understanding but having to have two phono stages / phono pre amps, one for for mc and one for mm in the highly technically advanced year of 2021 whiffs more than a bit of a lucrative commercial arrangement. Thank you.

Hi David, they say you'll never get a straight answer out of me, and to prove it...

The output voltages of moving magnets are constrained by the size of the coil wire, the number of turns before the inductance causes too much high frequency droop, the magnet type, its suitability for the job, and the weight (and probably a load more things).

That sets it in the region of 0.5 to 2.0 mV per centimetre per second.

The average maximum velocity of an LP record is historically 5cm per second at 1kHz.

So, for an MM the output range is (usually) 2.5 to 10 mV.

However, the absolute maximum velocity of an LP record - before groove breakover - is 25cm per second between 500Hz and 2,000Hz, which means that transients might reach five times the rated cartridge output. These peaks are the transients which "live" at the "edge" of the vinyl's capability.

So, during listening of steady state music (if there were such a thing), the music output might be 2.5mV to 10mV, and suddenly 12.5mV to 50mV on the largest fleeting transient.

The music has to be compressed to some degree so that it will fit, and that is why the mastering engineer makes a 7.5 IPS tape from the master recording, which uses compression and de-essing and so sounds different from the original.

The phono stage designer has to know this to be able to make a phono stage with sufficient headroom, but low noise, to accommodate the music signal without making a right old hash of it.

Then, during the 70's they rehashed the moving coil, which was previously useless at delivering the sort of output as an MM, without the magnet assembly crunching the stylus into the grooves (damaging it) when used with a pressed steel platter...

Alnico and similar magnets could be made smaller and so could the coils, which were previously very heavy, but the output was low.

10:1 (or thereabouts) microphone transformers could step up the voltage to that of an MM. And so MC's tended to be 1/10th of an MM.

And so, users of MC cartridges bought SUT's to go with their MM phono stages.

Then, cartridge manufacturers tried to up the output of MC's which resulted in HOMC cartridges (high output moving coil), but often they could only achieve the lower end at 2.5mV.

Then some bright spark (not) thought of using ultra low noise op-amps to make a phono stage where you could switch in ten times more gain, so you only needed their phono stage. Then everybody else did the same for obvious reasons.

What they'd not considered was the gain switch upset the EQ, and the low-noise op-amp slewed so slow that MMs started to sound awful.

The marketing fixed that problem by blaming the MM, so everybody went MC crazy.

And that's where I came along and started throwing spanners in the works, and making MM phono stages that often made MC sound awful by comparison.

The Accession MC does not have a step up transformer. It is all done by solid state electronics.

What you've seen is a good indication 0.5mV is low and 5mV is high. I suggest the tipping point is around 1mV but it is not official.

The performance of IQ3 and Accession M will be comparable, if not better, than many mid to upper mid price MC cartridges.

The Hana ML would ideally be matched to the Accession C as would any "normal" MC cartridge, the Hana *H series cartridges are designed to work with typical MM phono stage inputs.

The best way to to see what suits you and your system would be to take advantage of the loan scheme. A week or so of listening in your own surroundings should determine whether you like the sound, all for the cost of the postage!

Just my opinion, but I don't think that the HanaML would better the performance of the IQ3, but it will sound different.

Happy Listening

Ian

Thank you Graham for the heads up on the Accession mc not having a SUT.

Earlier this year I read an article on why people should not buy an electric car for a year or two or at least not until car batteries made using Graphene are introduced, apparently Graphene has conductivity far below that of any other material and is set to revolutionise the transport of high voltage power as one example. 

I mention this because the manufacture of hi fi cartridges seems to be in a trough technically with the very notable exception of DS Audio who have just introduced their 3rd generation of optical read cartridges. Although the cartridges need a DS Audio processor / phono stage which are not cheap (nor the cartridge) the processor has 4 options / settings to choose from to match your system.

Ken Kessler has just reviewed the DS 003 cartridge in Hi Fi News and states it is "mind blowing" - he wouldn't exaggerate would he ? - seriously I think cartridge manufacturers who continue with only mc and mm options are courting trouble as prices of optical options come down.

It's Saturday night, in play is a two cd album I just picked up from HMV for £6.99 containing 3 Basie albums, Count Basie & the Kansas City 7, The Atomic Mr Basie, Basie Plays Hefti plus 5 tracks from the 1956 Newport Jazz Festival and 10 tracks Basie with Sinatra. Not the zenith of sound production but good value and certainly worth listening to, also picked up at HMV for £4 another double cd album Bottleneck Blues Wizards, whats that saying "enjoy the music".

What? On magazine pay levels, no ... 

Some of Basie's greatest stuff there IMLTHO Tom  - Sinatra/Basie was my much-missed Father-in-Law's favourite LP ever...

Hi Tom,

Details of the IQ3 are here:

http://www.audionote.co.uk/iq3 - http://www.audionote.co.uk/iq3

Its claimed 6.5mV output works superbly with the AccessionM & ReflexM.

The ISO - an international standards organisation has been in place for decades covering every aspect of engineering etc but sadly seems to have has passed the industry that is our passion by ? 

My comment on industry standards for specifications was not aimed at Graham Slee products in any way. The home loan scheme is surely unique among hi fi manufactures.

I recently almost purchased a valve powered phono stage / phono pre amp from a uk company - they and two of their dealers knew what my system was in detail and we were on the point of closing the sale.

 I contacted another company with regard to purchasing an interconnect cable for the unit and the owner knowing my system cautioned me on the possible incompatibility to drive into my pre amp.

 I contacted the manufacturer of my pre amp who said no problem the phono stage has a source impedance of 50 Ohms and can drive the pre amp input impedance of 20K ohms. One hour later the phono stage manufacturer replied to say the unit was designed to drive into loads of 40 to 100K ohms and could not recommend it for use with my pre amp. 

So to me it seems one manufacturer is using one set of parameters and another manufacturer another to determine component synergy.

I hope this helps clarify my cautious approach and need for identical terminology on specifications when contemplating introducing a new unit into my hi fi system, thank you.