A Well Trodden Path
Printed From: Graham Slee Hifi System Components
Category: Find what you're looking for here!
Forum Name: New Members Corner
Forum Description: Introduce yourself here
URL: https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5201
Printed Date: 20 Apr 2024 at 2:07am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: A Well Trodden Path
Posted By: Mikeh
Subject: A Well Trodden Path
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2021 at 9:39am
|
I’m not sure
whether the well trodden path of system upgrades or de-bottlenecking
is an enjoyable search for aural nirvana or a journey to a financial
black hole. My return to to vinyl after a 20+ year gap started 4-5
years ago when ‘she that must be obeyed’ wanted to de-clutter
(i.e. dispose) of my record collection. On the basis of ‘use it or
loose it’ I quickly cobbled together a system based on a Rega
Planar 3 I had kept from the ‘90s, an A*cam Alpha amp I’d been
given and some Wharfedale Diamonds of ebay. After refurbishing the
Planar 3 with a basic AT catridge and new belt, the cheap and
cheerful system was usable but gave a sound to match. The upgrade
path began and over an 18 month period, with several changes I ended
up with a system I was happy with, the Planar 3 upgraded with an
engineered sub platter and Nagaoka MP110 cartridge, Pro-***t Phono
Box DS2 USB, C-Audio CXA 60 amp and cd player, A*cam Rdac II and Monitor
Audio Gold 50 speakers. The Phono Box was chosen after a couple of
trials to provide high quality digital output for vinyl ripping. All
well and good, this lasted for a couple of years spent collecting new
and second hand vinyl and enjoying the music.
I did look at GSP products and liked the reviews but didn’t think they would fit my requirements. All that changed following recent upgrades, the Planar 3 gaining replacement 24v motor and a Nagaoka MP200. Even after proper fitting (shimmed and tracked) the cartridge seemed to have more to offer than the rest of the system allowed. The Phono Box appeared to be the weak link so I started looking around and the GSP loan scheme seemed the ideal way to determine if this was right. After contacting John C, I arranged to pick up a Reflex M to try. Allow the Reflex M settle in and what a revelation! I won’t try to add to the reviews given by others more articulate than me but the clarity, sense of positioning and extended range was just amazing. It seemed to me that I could peel back layers of sound to focus on individual instruments to a degree I’ve never experienced before. One track said it all, a favourite ‘go to’ from John Mayall’s Turning Point live recording album. Listening to the track California features Johnny Almonds sax reaching unbelievable notes took me back to the spine chilling sound he produced in Sheffield City Hall, 1969, outstanding! The Reflex M gave a whole new sound to the vinyl collection. Having a chat with John C when returning the Reflex M made me realise that the Accession M might be an even better match, giving an additional analogue output to be used to for ripping. When a dealer demo unit came up on ebay, I snapped it up. After selling the Phono Box, it meant the Accession with PSU1 had cost just over half the price of a new Reflex M. Anyone likes a bargain, especially a Yorkshireman! The Accession is now in place and getting settled in. After 30 hours the sound is still improving and showing it will be as good if not better than the Reflex M. I don’t know whether I will be able to tell the difference but I will see over the next week. Trouble is, the path is now going down the route of trial Proprius which will no doubt make a significant improvement and once there, a Majestic is the obvious complement. Mind you, the quality of GSP products will last me the rest of my lifetime and supporting such a world renown company that is just a few miles away is an excellent investment, in my eyes. Many thanks to John C for his knowledgeable advice and help and to Graham S for such superb products!! Please tell me I’m not alone on this path? ------------- Mike Technics sl1210g with Victor U-2 Accession MM, Majestic + Proprius, Solo ULDE Cambridge Audio CXC CD player Lindemann Limetree Bridge streamer Harbeth P3ESR XD paired with 2x REL t5x |
Replies:
Posted By: bass man
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2021 at 9:52am
|
We are all addicts here Mike haha Are you using the rb300 or rb250 ------------- paul am from Yorkshire tha nuz |
Posted By: Mikeh
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2021 at 10:18am
|
Hi Paul, My Rega has the RB300 arm and is old enough to have the heavy tungsten counter weight. Still in excellent condition but I find it a swine to set up properly. Such is life  ------------- Mike Technics sl1210g with Victor U-2 Accession MM, Majestic + Proprius, Solo ULDE Cambridge Audio CXC CD player Lindemann Limetree Bridge streamer Harbeth P3ESR XD paired with 2x REL t5x |
Posted By: bass man
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2021 at 10:22am
|
Are you using the method of balancing the arm then setting vtf I prefer it the other way set the dial at 3 the use counter weight to set the tracking weight ------------- paul am from Yorkshire tha nuz |
Posted By: bass man
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2021 at 10:29am
|
I have just gone back to a rega p2 with rb250 from an ariston rd80 and mission 774 arm witch sounded great but if you farted too loud near it would need setting back up haha ------------- paul am from Yorkshire tha nuz |
Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2021 at 7:12pm
------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
Mikeh wrote:Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 12 Apr 2021 at 8:22pm
|
Hi Mike I may not be on the same path as you but I am on a up grade path, I went from Gram Amp2 SE to the Reflex M before that I up graded the power supply on the GA2 SE to the PSU1, I have now replaced my cables from the Amp to the headphone Solo amp with Lautus cables that was done to get more Bass from my headphones which they did do, I now have on order a pair of CuSat50 cables to go from CD player to my Amp ( Treble is a bit harsh) and when funds allow I will be replacing all my interconnect cable with Graham Slee cables. So you are not alone. Jonathan ------------- Reflex M, Solo (both with PSU-1) CuSat50, Lautus, Spatia & Spatia links cables. Ortofon Bronze. |
Posted By: Mikeh
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2021 at 6:33pm
|
The upgrade path continues. I made the mistake of booking the loaner set of Proprius plus Majestic and interconnects. My idea was to try the Proprius connected direct from my Accession or A*cam DAC then add the Majestic to hear the difference of the better DAC. The Proprius didn't disappoint, such a smooth sound extending the bass down to levels I didn't know the Monitor Audios could tackle. The bigger change came from the Majestic. Obviously no difference to the analogue input but the digital was transformed. CDs from the A*cam player suddenly sounded 'alive and fuller. Trying HD download files now maked sense, as a source for real interesting listening. I'm now on the build list for both Majestic and Proprius which just leaves a minor problem with the financial black hole getting bigger. Must be worthwhile ------------- Mike Technics sl1210g with Victor U-2 Accession MM, Majestic + Proprius, Solo ULDE Cambridge Audio CXC CD player Lindemann Limetree Bridge streamer Harbeth P3ESR XD paired with 2x REL t5x |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2021 at 9:55pm
|
Hi Mike, I had the same moment of 'where did the bass come from' when I connected the loan Proprius amps to my Gold GX100's. I ordered the amps before I sent the load unit to the next person. The Majestic came later and was great, I sold on two well reviewed DACs soon after my own Majestic arrived but it was still a fine investment in my opinion. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: Mikeh
Date Posted: 26 Jun 2021 at 12:35pm
|
A couple of months have passed and I think I'm nearing the end of my upgrade path. My Accession MM, Majestic, Proprius are set up with GS interconnects and I’ve had time to spend several hours listening to vinyl tracks like I've never heard them before. The overall system has gained approval from the boss for it’s ‘neatness’ with the Proprius mounted on the speaker stands. By pure coincidence I found the spacing of the feet on the Proprius are a perfect fit to the stand legs, okay using cheap clips might not be best solution but it works until I can find something better.
It's one thing to read other's reviews of the GS sound but the reality is just amazing. Apart from the fullness of the sound at relatively low levels what has really hit me is the spacial location on live recordings. Gamers may rave about 3D headsets but I reckon Graham has given us 3D aural goggles. I do have white noise hiss on the analogue path which I as bit excessive if I turn up the wick but John C has kindly offered advice to resolve. With some judicious buying from dealers and eBay I've saved enough to make a Yorkshireman smile and have enough left over to buy new vinyl, which is what it’s all about after all! Maybe a pair of short length Spatia cables with be added at some point but now it’s time to sit back and enjoy. ------------- Mike Technics sl1210g with Victor U-2 Accession MM, Majestic + Proprius, Solo ULDE Cambridge Audio CXC CD player Lindemann Limetree Bridge streamer Harbeth P3ESR XD paired with 2x REL t5x |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2021 at 8:25pm
|
You've done well there! I agree too about the 'reality' of the sound. If it is any help Mike I have my Proprius amps are on M3 hex spacers to get them off the carpet. I have my Proprius amps' level controls at about 1 o'clock (the S or bird's back wing) which gives me more range on the Majestic volume control and no issues with noise. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: Mikeh
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2021 at 8:48pm
|
Thanks Jon, good tip. Simple is best!! ------------- Mike Technics sl1210g with Victor U-2 Accession MM, Majestic + Proprius, Solo ULDE Cambridge Audio CXC CD player Lindemann Limetree Bridge streamer Harbeth P3ESR XD paired with 2x REL t5x |
Posted By: Help with bass
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2021 at 10:01am
|
Hello friends in GS, I hope no-one minds I post a dumb question here. Perhaps lazy rather than dumb as I haven’t fully scoured the forum for an answer so apologies if this is already settled: Q: Is there a consensus on upgrading the fig.8 mains cable for the PSU1 ? I am using an Accession MM which is WONDERFUL but I am also always looking for a cheap tweak! Regarding the interminable ‘value for money’ debate, I would certainly be happy to throw £30 at it without fear of disappointment. Thank you in advance, HWB
|
Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2021 at 12:00pm
|
Dan, the first "trick" that often surprises people with the result is to try reversing the polarity of the fig 8 plug into the PSU1. i.e. unplug and turn through 180deg and plug back in. Worth a try and costs nothing! There have been many discussions on alternative power cables, some show improvement in particular areas, often when the mains supply is noisy. I put in "mains cable psu1" in the advanced search function which returned many relevant pages containing users experience of alternative cables. Happy searching Ian ------------- Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it. |
Posted By: Help with bass
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2021 at 1:00pm
|
thanks Ian. Not strictly a ‘trick’ since there’s a diagram showing the reverse polarity move in the PSU-1 instructions? Appreciate the good wishes in any case.
|
Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2021 at 1:03pm
|
My PSU1s obviously predate those instructions! ------------- Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it. |
Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2021 at 7:41pm
|
Mike on your post 26 Jun you had pics of your speaker stands, I have just noticed that I had the same stands a few years ago but now I have wooden ones by HI-FI racks and I found the them a good up grade, I'm using Silver 100s speakers and I found that the new stands gave me a bit more Bass with out affecting the treble for the worst. My old speaker sands gave me good service for well over 10 years but the new ones look a lot better. When people look at up grading their HiFi the one or two things they seem to over look are speaker stands and HiFi racks even where your speakers are placed in the room can make a difference and one thing with speaker repositioning it's FREE. ------------- Reflex M, Solo (both with PSU-1) CuSat50, Lautus, Spatia & Spatia links cables. Ortofon Bronze. |
Posted By: Mikeh
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2021 at 9:53pm
|
Hi Jon, It's interesting that you found such a significant difference cause by the stands. Do you think it might be due to the energy absorbing of the wooden construction compared to metal. I ask because of experience I had with these Target stands when I got the Monitor Audios. As soon as I got the speakers I found the sound really disappointing compared to showroom testing. They sounded very weak anddlacking in clarity butI was reticent about forking out for MA models. Then I happened to notice that there was a lot of vibration passing through the stand legs and my simple thinking was that a lot of energy was being lost. I purchased some absorbing 'buttons' to sit the speaker on and the sound was transformed and never looked back. The other reason for keeping these has been the size and height fits well with my listening area, plus the fact that the Proprius can be mounted gets me even more brownie points. ------------- Mike Technics sl1210g with Victor U-2 Accession MM, Majestic + Proprius, Solo ULDE Cambridge Audio CXC CD player Lindemann Limetree Bridge streamer Harbeth P3ESR XD paired with 2x REL t5x |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2021 at 10:07pm
|
A different Jon says: decoupling will definitely help just as you found. Whether it is pads between speaker and stand or changing to anti-vibration feet under the stand, the alternative is the stand spikes transmitting the speaker cabinet energy into floor boards like nails as I realised in the past. Energy lost as you said, either drained away or released slowly as woolly bass vibrations. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2021 at 10:13am
|
The only thing I can think of is that the spikes are thinner and penetrate the carpet more than my old stands did, on them I did use rubber decoupling pads on the top plate. I also use them on my new ones as they did come with them. Just a thought I did not fill the old stands with sand which may of affected the sound, If I can rightly remember you could this this. I was of the thinking that the more solid the stand the better as less of sound energy is lost and on the old ones the tubes are hollow, I do remember the bigger tube I put the cables through them but the two smaller tubes were hollow too, with the new ones the up rights are solid. There is one big BUT as Jon as said the use of anti-vibration feet which as put what I had said about the floor spikes into question. Mike did you ever use the spikes on the top plate or fill them with sand? ------------- Reflex M, Solo (both with PSU-1) CuSat50, Lautus, Spatia & Spatia links cables. Ortofon Bronze. |
Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2021 at 1:47pm
|
one thing I forgot to say was, I will admit I thought that the feet for the spikes were more to protect your wooden floor than anything else as I have only ever seen them used on wooden floors. As I'm here as anyone ever heard any sound improvements made with equipment racks. I have had three over the years and have not heard any difference. I will admit that I replaced the first one on look alone and the third change was for two reasons first was the glass shelfs (on 2nd rack) were a nightmare for dust and the second was space, I did hear an improvement with the anti-vibration sub shelf used under the turntable, But that was small. I'm not saying they don't make a difference but it must be small. One thing I would not advise is stacking your HiFi one on top of the other that's a big NO NO. ------------- Reflex M, Solo (both with PSU-1) CuSat50, Lautus, Spatia & Spatia links cables. Ortofon Bronze. |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2021 at 3:38pm
|
You are right Jon, those hard disks are to stop the spikes scratching or pitting the floorboards. You can get feet with a constrained layer in them or sprung like Townshend Seismic platforms or the Gaia III on my floorstanders. On my standmounts I put 4 sorbothane hemispsheres on top of each stand. They absorb the speaker movement. I agree that the stand construction is important. Filling hollow stands makes them heavy and rigid, half-fillrd may sound better. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2021 at 4:17pm
|
Jon I won't say what forum I have been on but some of the crap that was posted on the this subject was unbelievable. One said that speaker stands were a waste of money and that he found a carboard box was good enough. A lot did say that BASS was where the biggest improvement was found with good stands which is where I found the biggest improvement. As what you have said (heavy and rigid) a lot did say if you can fill them you should do so. I did like what one bloke posted, He made stands out of breeze blocks but said that his wife didn't like them but the improvement was worth the grief he got from her. As I said I didn't fill my old stands so may be the improvement I got from the new stands may have been smaller. One thing I did agree with on this forum was the use of Blu-Tack I do remember using it on my old stands before I bought the rubber ones but, from blu- tack to the rubber I didn't hear a difference so I did waste my money. ------------- Reflex M, Solo (both with PSU-1) CuSat50, Lautus, Spatia & Spatia links cables. Ortofon Bronze. |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2021 at 5:17pm
|
There needs to be some friction between stand and speaker. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2021 at 5:23pm
|
I have some light Target stands that were full of sand to stop them ringing, quite rigid frame but light so blutac was fine. My Partington stands are heavy duty and like putting the speaker on the floor so I decouple them. I suggest this test: knock on the top of the speaker and see if you hear the floor joining in. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: Mikeh
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2021 at 9:51pm
|
Jon & Jon, Coming back to your earlier questions about stands and spikes / filling. I haven't tried either with these Targets, they are pretty light and the 3 tubes could (I think) be filled. Maybe something like lead shot ( or modern alternative), might be worth a try but I have to say I'm happy with the current sound so it would be a project to relieve winter boredom. The only time I found difference in sound resulting from changing shelving units has been from the obvious turntable vibration isolation. It's a long time since I had an AR turntable, famous for it's advert hitting the plinth with a hammer to illustrate the platter suspension. Following that with a Rega gave all sorts of problems until it was isolated on a shelf from Rega,that was a worthwhile investment. My current Technics still uses the Rega shelf keeping it separate from all other GS units. I think I go back to the old.engineering philosophy ' if it ain't broke...'.and try and keep tinkering to fully reversible trials that the boss won't notice. ------------- Mike Technics sl1210g with Victor U-2 Accession MM, Majestic + Proprius, Solo ULDE Cambridge Audio CXC CD player Lindemann Limetree Bridge streamer Harbeth P3ESR XD paired with 2x REL t5x |
Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2021 at 12:43pm
|
When I got the sub shelfs I only had a CD player and amp, with the amp I noticed nothing and with The CD player there was an improvement but small, looking back on it now for what I had at the time the £45 each was not worth it for the improvement I got. I still use them for the CD player and now turntable. If I was to buy a sub shelf now I would only buy one for my turntable. I did a knock test on the turntable with and with out the sub shelf and with it I heard a lot less nose from the speakers so it does work. A mate has said to try out Blu-Tack on the feet of the turntable as he has found it work for him, may try that out and if it does not work for me it will cost me nothing as I have some already. Over all I am vary happy with the rack and speaker stands ------------- Reflex M, Solo (both with PSU-1) CuSat50, Lautus, Spatia & Spatia links cables. Ortofon Bronze. |