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The long and short of it

Printed From: Graham Slee Hifi System Components
Category: Cables and Interconnects
Forum Name: Interconnects for Turntable and Headphone
Forum Description: Technical Q&A, hints and tips
URL: https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5081
Printed Date: 24 Apr 2024 at 2:21am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: The long and short of it
Posted By: Grumpysaurus
Subject: The long and short of it
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2020 at 11:53pm
Dear all.

Whilst I'm saving for a phono stage I am planning ahead for future purchases and how to incorporate them into the home in a family-friendly fashion. Specifically I am thinking of the location of Proprius power amps in relation to the pre-amp and speakers.

Is it generally considered better to locate the Proprius next to, or close to, the speakers, with the attendant short speaker cable run and longer interconnects between the pre and power amps?  Alternatively would it be more sensible to have the pre and power amps close to each other and have a longer speaker cable run?

In case it is relevant, the distance between the pre-amp and the speakers will be two metres to one speaker and four to five metres to the second speaker. (The pre-amp will be located in a corner of the room and the speakers more or less central to the seating position.)  No mains cables will be in the area between the pre-amp and speakers.

Thank you.





Replies:
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2020 at 1:36pm
The Proprius on the speakers is only viable where a balanced feed is available from the preamp/control amp.

In my own set-up I use long speaker cables, even though I have the balanced output of my Majestic available.

I run unbalanced interconnects from my Majestic - which acts as my preamp - to the Proprius inputs.

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That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2020 at 10:34pm
I think Graham is right. I have my Proprius amps next to each of my speakers (I lifted them off the carpet on small platforms) and use long balanced feed from the Majestic with very short speaker cables. It sounds great to me and may be the best fit for your domestic situation, unless I have misunderstood.



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Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: Bags
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2023 at 11:15am
I'm interested in the experience of other proprius users who have moved their amps closer to their speakers.  What changes did you experience in sound quality as a result?


Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2023 at 1:14pm
I tried both, and found very little difference (if any) in sound quality, but I was using a maximum length of about 3m.

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Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2023 at 4:55pm
For connecting Majestic to Proprius, I was led to believe that Lautus-R3 1.5m is probably the optimum interconnect. It is the minimum length required for the EMI-suppressive ferrites and uses the anti-phase signal only (unbalanced) rather than either the standard phase or both phases together (balanced). The anti-phase (R3) alone does not carry forward common mode distortion whereas the other two options do. So in theory, it seems this interconnect would provide the purest output. The benefits of using anti-phase plus ferrites should offset the surplus length of 1.5m.

CuSat50-R3 of any length uses the anti-phase but has no ferrites. Libran of any length uses both phases (so carries forward common mode distortion) and also has no ferrites. So even ultra-short lengths of either of these interconnects is unlikely to offset no ferrite EMI-suppression and carrying forward common mode distortion on the standard phase of the Libran.

Whether you could actually hear a difference in purity between the cable choices in another matter entirely. You'd need to optimise the rest of the system before being able to hear any difference at all probably.


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We do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2023 at 8:14pm
I have the Proprius amps close enough to use Spatia jumper leads about 150mm long because the Magnepan terminals are at floor level. Before that 300mm bi-wire cable which replaced 4,000mm bi-wire cable from hifi rack to speakers. All very good, subtly different in sound.

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Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2023 at 8:25pm
In my opinion cable length is less of an issue with good cables.

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Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2023 at 10:27am
Originally posted by Ash Ash wrote:

For connecting Majestic to Proprius, I was led to believe that Lautus-R3 1.5m is probably the optimum interconnect. It is the minimum length required for the EMI-suppressive ferrites and uses the anti-phase signal only (unbalanced) rather than either the standard phase or both phases together (balanced). The anti-phase (R3) alone does not carry forward common mode distortion whereas the other two options do. So in theory, it seems this interconnect would provide the purest output. The benefits of using anti-phase plus ferrites should offset the surplus length of 1.5m.

CuSat50-R3 of any length uses the anti-phase but has no ferrites. Libran of any length uses both phases (so carries forward common mode distortion) and also has no ferrites. So even ultra-short lengths of either of these interconnects is unlikely to offset no ferrite EMI-suppression and carrying forward common mode distortion on the standard phase of the Libran.

Whether you could actually hear a difference in purity between the cable choices in another matter entirely. You'd need to optimise the rest of the system before being able to hear any difference at all probably.

For balanced connections between the Majestic and Proprius, reading the the "Lautus page" on this website recommends to use the Libran cables for balanced connections. Of course, you could always make use of the loan scheme and see which you prefer?

Unless you placed a special order on the Majestic (Variable line output on the RCA connectors), it makes more sense to me to use the TRS balanced outputs, using a balanced cable to the balanced input on the Proprius?


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Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2023 at 2:21pm
Both of the Majestic I have have the optional variable level line-outs but I prefer to use the TRS outputs for the anti-phase connectivity.

For professional applications and/or really long cable runs of many meters or more, it is generally accepted that balanced interconnects (therefore Libran) is the best solution. Also, the Lautus is somewhat an "experimental" product whose benefits were deemed to be falsely advertised pseudoscience (by Advertising Standards Agency), hence why much of the explanatory theory on the product page had to be removed. I'm willing to trust the logic/calculation behind ferrite placement within the sheath however.

If I had wanted the shortest cables possible, I may have selected CuSat50-R3 over the Libran, for reasons explained before but it's a close call. My current Lautus-R3 allows flexibility for equipment positioning.

As for Spatia length, unless it's very very long (many meters), I doubt there would be any audible difference. It's shielded and the magnitude of the signal is much higher than line-level so far less susceptible to EMI, in my opinion.


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We do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2023 at 8:34pm
Using short speaker cables generally means long signal cables. I agree with Kevin that balanced is better on long runs.  I use balanced cables like the Librans from Majestic to Proprius, 2 and 5:metres respectively.

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Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.



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