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The Funk Firm Houdini

Printed From: Graham Slee Hifi System Components
Category: Turntable Audio
Forum Name: High Fidelity Turntable User
Forum Description: Technical Q&A, hints and tips
URL: https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5043
Printed Date: 29 Mar 2024 at 1:05pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: The Funk Firm Houdini
Posted By: CageyH
Subject: The Funk Firm Houdini
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2020 at 10:58am
I recently saw that the Funk Firm have released  a cartridge decoupler, called the Houdini. Initial feedback from the small user group looks promising, so I have ordered one.

It is supposed to improve vinyl replay sound quality, but time will tell.
It is not cheap compared to an "Isolator", but if it does what people are claiming it does, then it could be an interesting product.

Pictures and feedback will be posted when it arrives, with my opinion on what is does with my AT20SLA that is currently fitted.


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Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.



Replies:
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2020 at 11:12am
I would be interested to read the patent they refer to. Does anybody have a link to it?


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That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps


Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2020 at 12:35pm
I think the patent is being applied for.
I can ask Arthur for a link.


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Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.


Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2020 at 2:27pm
There is no link available, as the patent is relatively new.
I did ask, and I was questioned about if I was being serious....

I assume that AK is not happy with my question.


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Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2020 at 10:39pm
A patent application guarantees protection up to acceptance, but if refused, then the protection ends, and if refused, wasn't worth it to start with. I published the patent application number for the Accession. I think if somebody claims a design is patented, then anybody enquiring should be able to view it.


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That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps


Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2020 at 11:20pm
I think a quick google will show the patent application number, or a search using his name.
I could not view the patent though, so I may have been looking in the wrong place.


-------------
Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.


Posted By: Aussie Mick
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2020 at 9:41am
US$400 and they’re saying use it on a Rega P1. Look, I’m a believer that everything matters. EVERYTHING. But surely at that level you’re better off putting those dollars into a MUCH better turntable? Or superior phonostage? Would I try it on my RP8? Yes, definitely, because the track record of that company speaks for itself. But a P1?
Can’t wait for your feedback, Kevin!
Mick


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Rega RP8 - Apheta 2 - Accession MC Enigma PS -Solo ULDE (Focal Utopia) - PS Audio M700 - Fical Kanta No2


Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2020 at 9:46am
Originally posted by CageyH CageyH wrote:

I think a quick google will show the patent application number, or a search using his name.
I could not view the patent though, so I may have been looking in the wrong place.

The number I found is GB1708029.2 - Cartridge Isolator. This may not be the latest.


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Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.


Posted By: Aussie Mick
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2020 at 9:46am
Now I’m thinking about what it would need to do for the money. Will it make an RB300 compete with an SME-V? Then it’s obviously a bargain. But if it makes an RB300 compete with an RB808, not so much...

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Rega RP8 - Apheta 2 - Accession MC Enigma PS -Solo ULDE (Focal Utopia) - PS Audio M700 - Fical Kanta No2


Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2020 at 9:48am
Originally posted by Aussie Mick Aussie Mick wrote:

US$400 and they’re saying use it on a Rega P1. Look, I’m a believer that everything matters. EVERYTHING. But surely at that level you’re better off putting those dollars into a MUCH better turntable? Or superior phonostage? Would I try it on my RP8? Yes, definitely, because the track record of that company speaks for itself. But a P1?
Can’t wait for your feedback, Kevin!
Mick

It will be interesting to see what it does on my arm, which is very similar to an FXR. It seems expensive, but there is a money back guarantee  if you are not happy.

I am eagerley awaiting it's arrival, but I have not paid for it yet.


-------------
Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2020 at 10:40am
I know this might sound like me bitching, but when I wanted to tell the world about my invention, I did it through my patent application, which was granted by the Americans, but so far, the British can't be arsed.

You do it through a patent application because you want to tell everybody about your discovery. In doing so, you separate yourself from the bullsh*t claims of others.

It also protects your idea for as long as it takes for the patent office to conclude their investigations, which took 3 years in the US. It now has 20 years (minus the patent date) to run. Because the British are so slow, the UK application is still protecting it - great!

It is a complete arsehole finding your patent application or granted patent online. Therefore, I did the hard work and provided links for would-be customers to view. If I hadn't, I would imagine that would-be customers would think I was bullsh*tting them.

Also, the cost of patenting is so expensive, you'd want to get your value for money, or at least your 15 minutes of fame! I'm going for the 15 minutes as I'll never earn my twenty-grand back!

I'm mentioning this only because Mr. Funk Firm could be making the most of his hard work, rather than what it seems - hiding his light under a bushel. It is also interesting to other engineers/inventors to read about the technology!

I gave up trying to find it, but in the process, I found this patent:

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=1&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20061004&CC=GB&NR=2424748A&KC=A - https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=1&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20061004&CC=GB&NR=2424748A&KC=A #


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That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps


Posted By: RichW
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2020 at 10:42am
Will be very interesting to hear your opinion on this next step Kevin...


 


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Majestic/Enigma, Accession MM & MC.


Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2020 at 11:44am
For those interested, link to patent application:


http://www.ipo.gov.uk/p-pj?startYear=2018&startMonth=September&startDay=26th+-+6749&endYear=2020&endMonth=September&endDay=16th+-+6852&filter=Khoubesserian&perPage=10&sort=Publication+Date - https://www.ipo.gov.uk/p-pj?startYear=2018&startMonth=September&startDay=26th+-+6749&endYear=2020&endMonth=September&endDay=16th+-+6852&filter=Khoubesserian&perPage=10&sort=Publication+Date





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Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it.


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2020 at 2:04pm
Originally posted by BackinBlack BackinBlack wrote:

For those interested, link to patent application:


http://www.ipo.gov.uk/p-pj?startYear=2018&startMonth=September&startDay=26th+-+6749&endYear=2020&endMonth=September&endDay=16th+-+6852&filter=Khoubesserian&perPage=10&sort=Publication+Date - https://www.ipo.gov.uk/p-pj?startYear=2018&startMonth=September&startDay=26th+-+6749&endYear=2020&endMonth=September&endDay=16th+-+6852&filter=Khoubesserian&perPage=10&sort=Publication+Date





Then you need to change the start date in the date range.

Whilst on there I discovered mine will have taken 9 years before being examined sometime in 2023.

Advice to Arthur: take out a US Patent - us British are crap!


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That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps


Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2020 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by Graham Slee Graham Slee wrote:


Then you need to change the start date in the date range.

Whilst on there I discovered mine will have taken 9 years before being examined sometime in 2023.

Advice to Arthur: take out a US Patent - us British are crap!

I didn't think to look that far back as I inferred that the application was relatively new. Bearing in mind your experience, 2017 is obviously recent in the world of the Patent Office!


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Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it.


Posted By: patientot
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2020 at 7:42pm
So from the patent link it's two pieces of metal or CF with some foam sandwiched between. This idea isn't really new as I've seen it elsewhere, and I'm sure others have also. This one is more attractive looking than the other one. Not a product for me, I'll just say politely. If you do install one of these, it looks like you'll need to raise your arm 6mm from your normal VTA settings. May be a challenge on some turntables. 

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SL-1200 MK7 (modified) + Reflex M + PSU-1 used with AT150-40ML, AT VM95ML, Stanton 680mkII + Ogura, and Shure M35X cartridges.


Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2020 at 7:47pm
I can’t find that detail?
Where did you find it?


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Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.


Posted By: patientot
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2020 at 8:09pm
Originally posted by CageyH CageyH wrote:

I can’t find that detail?
Where did you find it?

It's in a link posted up thread. Copied below:

The Cartridge Isolation System, or 'Cartridge Isolator' for the sake of brevity,is a unit designed to break the signal feedback loop generated by the turtable/arm/cartridge combination during playback of vinyl records. It does this by acting as a two way filter. The material used in between two plates of stainless steel, aluminium or carbon fibre is is a non-organic foam designed to absorb impact and reduce resonance. It acts by inhibiting the passage of non-musical information - in both directions from the point of signal generation (the cartridge) thereby limiting the micro-environmental influences. Simply put, any energy produced by the cartridge will not be transmitted along the arm to the bearings, and any energy flowing the other way from the arm to the cartridge will be arrested. Producing a 'cleaner' and more linear sound image.

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=1&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20061004&CC=GB&NR=2424748A&KC=A - https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=1&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20061004&CC=GB&NR=2424748A&KC=A

Actually to clarify what is posted above, this device is from the same guy who makes "The Cartridge Man" cartridges, not Funk Firm. I'm going to guess Funk Firm's product is similar. 

On a similar point, if you want to see some interesting tests on tonearms and headshells take a look at the Korf Audio site. They found, through vibrometry tests, that headshells (whether SME type or integrated into a tonearm tube as one piece) have different resonances depending on the material and how much "meat" there is over cartridge. Some of the Funk Firm arms have very little "meat" at the cart holder end, which I'm guessing lead to the development of the Houdini. I would also guess if there was more "meat" at the cartridge holder end it would not be necessary. Korf ended up making SME type headshells out of ceramic. 


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SL-1200 MK7 (modified) + Reflex M + PSU-1 used with AT150-40ML, AT VM95ML, Stanton 680mkII + Ogura, and Shure M35X cartridges.


Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2020 at 8:46pm
I believe that the Houdini is a little more complex than the cartridge isolator.
I have the latter on a MusicMaker Classic.


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Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.


Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 19 Sep 2020 at 3:01pm
No sign of the Houdini yet. I am keen to try it, as I was contemplating an ART-9. This may allow me to put the purchase of an expensive cartridge off for a while.

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Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.


Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2020 at 10:51am
Just had news that my Houdini is shipping today.
It should be here some time next week.


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Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.


Posted By: Aussie Mick
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2020 at 1:18pm
Exciting times!

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Rega RP8 - Apheta 2 - Accession MC Enigma PS -Solo ULDE (Focal Utopia) - PS Audio M700 - Fical Kanta No2


Posted By: Godra
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2020 at 8:48pm
Look out Origin lives website. This summer I was looking at their website and stumble upon what they call the 'cartridge enabler'. The idea behind it is also to decouple the cartridge and the tonearm. Way less expensive than the Cartridge man isolator and the Houdini. If I had the technical know how and the time, I would love to compare the effect of those products. 

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Clearaudio Performance DC with Clarify tonearm + Virtuoso V2, Tannoy Legacy Eaton, Accession MM and BAT VK300Xse


Posted By: ServerBaboon
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2020 at 11:35pm
As above may be a cheaper place to start.

https://www.originlive.com/hi-fi/turntable-upgrades-modification/hi-fi-cartridge-upgrade/ - https://www.originlive.com/hi-fi/turntable-upgrades-modification/hi-fi-cartridge-upgrade/




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Steve

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Various bits of GSP Kit ..well two so far, unless you count the cables that is.


Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2020 at 1:13am
I already have a cartridge man isolator.
I am not sure I want to add an enabler as well.


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Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.


Posted By: Suggs
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2020 at 7:12am
I have an OL deck and arm and generally think their products are great. However, I tried their enabler and was not impressed...I'd say stick with your original plan Kevin


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Derek


Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2020 at 7:24am
The important point is that if I don't like it, it is going back.
It is expensive compared to the other options, so it has to work to my ears, or I will not keep it.


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Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.


Posted By: RichW
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2020 at 10:45am
The description for the top Funk FX3D arm states that cartridges need a rigid support and
this seems to be at odds with the claim in the Houdini decoupler description that firmly bolting
cartridge to arm is 'completely wrong'. Need to read more about this..
Hope it does as claimed.







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Majestic/Enigma, Accession MM & MC.


Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2020 at 11:10am
Indeed it does.
I think Arthur may have shot himself in the foot if Houdini does what is claimed. 

There may be no more need for expensive tonearms, allowing the user to invest in a bettter cartridge and Houdini.

Time will tell, but at the moment I have only seen positive feedback.



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Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.


Posted By: RichW
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2020 at 10:21am
There are lots of apparently contradictory views and opinions on 'best practice' for turntable based equipment.
Decks, arms, cartridges - many valid arguments are made for differing approaches but it's unusual
to see a respected designer apparently contradicting himself.
Arthur can probably explain it.



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Majestic/Enigma, Accession MM & MC.


Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2020 at 7:44pm

Houdini has arrived.


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Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.


Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2020 at 8:03pm
Two short clips, one with Houdini, and one without.

File 1
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oemlgJMcxTaF6r0X_8nCcjQGmm0_vX9k/view?usp=sharing - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oemlgJMcxTaF6r0X_8nCcjQGmm0_vX9k/view?usp=sharing

File 2
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1et64cI3CE21dJsWfA9lKohaWNH3_uZFS/view?usp=sharing - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1et64cI3CE21dJsWfA9lKohaWNH3_uZFS/view?usp=sharing

Which do you prefer?


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Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2020 at 9:08pm
File 1. Wider and more dynamic. Houdini?


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Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2020 at 10:10pm
Yep.
Easy wasn’t it.


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Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.


Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2020 at 10:14pm
And a full track. Big files as they are 192KHz, 32bit, around 430Mb
Please do not download these tracks unless you already own a copy.

Tracy Chapman - Fast car

Version 1
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1L7agikKv5FjrWCP2QdwtqsBlTm_4TB4W/view?usp=sharing - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1L7agikKv5FjrWCP2QdwtqsBlTm_4TB4W/view?usp=sharing

Version 2
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q7Z39Sym-rdTk1XZ-Wi1lU9maC6gp4nm/view?usp=sharing - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q7Z39Sym-rdTk1XZ-Wi1lU9maC6gp4nm/view?usp=sharing


-------------
Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.


Posted By: Chris Firth
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2020 at 9:38am
Ouch!
The levels are very high.



Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2020 at 9:46am
They are, but I have not touched anything other than the recording rate.
The levels are the same between the two.

I will see if I can do them with an Accession MC this weekend.


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Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.


Posted By: Chris Firth
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2020 at 10:42am
Listening on the laptop using headphones, and with the volume turned right down was interesting.
Recording 1 has issues. The channel balance is slightly right of centre, and tonally something is amiss. Summat's not quite right.
Recording 2 sounds better balanced and fuller bodied.




Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2020 at 11:58am
Recording two has the Houdini.
Recording one sounded ok to me through my system.


-------------
Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.


Posted By: Chris Firth
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2020 at 12:12pm
By better balanced I was referring solely to the channel balance.







Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2020 at 12:41pm
Maybe my Azimuth is very slightly out?
It could be that the Houdini has "fixed" that issue.


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Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.


Posted By: Chris Firth
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2020 at 12:59pm
Maybe.
I was listening using headphones, and probably wouldn't have noticed over speakers.
I tend to use headphones for picking holes in things.



Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2020 at 5:33pm
I did notice in Audacity that there was a channel imbalance. As I don’t have an azimuth adjustment, there is not much I can do about it.

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Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.


Posted By: patientot
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2020 at 6:02pm
Originally posted by CageyH CageyH wrote:

I did notice in Audacity that there was a channel imbalance. As I don’t have an azimuth adjustment, there is not much I can do about it.

Adjusting azimuth won't necessarily fix channel balance issues anyway. See the diagram below:


By the time you start adjusting azimuth radically to fix channel balance you end up with the physical position of the stylus out of whack, which is not good. Azimuth adjustment is mainly to optimize crosstalk values or crosstalk phase, depending on your philosophy around the procedure. 

It is very common for carts to have 1-2dB differences in channel balance straight from the factory. Many allow for that in their factory specs. 

Of course if you recording needledrops you can always fix channel imbalance digitally. 


-------------
SL-1200 MK7 (modified) + Reflex M + PSU-1 used with AT150-40ML, AT VM95ML, Stanton 680mkII + Ogura, and Shure M35X cartridges.


Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2020 at 6:07pm
Thanks for the info.
I did not want to change anything between the needle drops.
I just wanted to present it as it was, warts and all.


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Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.


Posted By: Chris Firth
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2020 at 6:30pm
Do you still have adjustable antiskate, Kevin?
That can also have an effect, and it's easier to adjust with headphones on and a setup record.
I use the HiFi News producers cut, and you can really easily make out resonances and channel balance easily.


Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2020 at 7:11pm
I do.
I just don't have a set up record - yet. Wink


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Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.


Posted By: Chris Firth
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2020 at 7:43pm
Side 1, 2nd track from the runout is a good one.
Many folk have gone insane trying to get the last track to play nice, so don't get too wrapped up with it Wink


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2020 at 9:43pm
Thanks Kevin for sharing these tracks so we can all hear the impact of the Houdini. You have certainly tempted me to try one.



-------------
Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2020 at 9:59pm
If anybody here wants to hear the Tracy Chapman, drop me a PM with your e-mail address and I will grant you access to the files on my Google drive.

I am not going to publicly share the links and grant full access, as I found out that the links were being copied across to other forums. That sort of thing gets you into trouble. 


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Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.


Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2020 at 8:51am
Being honest and open, I experienced a little issue with my heavy DL103. It weighs just under 25g.
I had a hard time getting it to work well with my Houdini, so I was at the point of sending it back to get it checked out.

However, I don’t like being defeated by these issues, so I redid my set-up from scratch. Normally, I set by bias/anti-skate roughly about 0.5g less than my VTF. This did not work well, so I tuned it by ear, using my headphones. When the bias started to get to the same value as the VTF, things sharpened up nicely, and Houdini was doing it’s thing. I am very happy with it now.

Yes, it is expensive, but for me it just works, and it works well. It certainly has improved my enjoyment of the music. It may not be the case for everybody, but you won’t know until you try it.

User reviews I have seen around the Internet have been mostly very positive, which has to be a good sign. The only thing that I am disappointed with is that Funk Firm claim that this almost negates the need for “expensive” arms. Well, I wish this would have been around before I bought my FX1200! I wish I still had a standard SL1200 arm to see just what it did on that.


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Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.


Posted By: Godra
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2020 at 3:02pm
Here is an interesting read :  http://https://korfaudio.com/blog75 - http://https://korfaudio.com/blog75  about a ceramic spacer. I think this shed light on the possible effect of the differents devices we talked about in this thread. 

-------------
Clearaudio Performance DC with Clarify tonearm + Virtuoso V2, Tannoy Legacy Eaton, Accession MM and BAT VK300Xse



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