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Choice of Sumiko or Ortofon head

Printed From: Graham Slee Hifi System Components
Category: Turntable Audio
Forum Name: MM: Moving Magnet | MC: Moving Coil
Forum Description: Learn about the differences between moving magnet and moving coil cartridges here
URL: https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4893
Printed Date: 29 Mar 2024 at 12:32pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Choice of Sumiko or Ortofon head
Posted By: Vincenzo
Subject: Choice of Sumiko or Ortofon head
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2020 at 3:07pm
Ciao, sto acquistando una nuova cartuccia per il mio P******t 2 SB Xperience e stavo valutando il Sumiko Blue point special lll evo, o Ortofon 2M Black. Come pre-phono ho un Graham Slee Reflex M. Grazie.

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Amp. Musical Fidelity M6si,Turntables VPI Scout Signature, Cartridges Ortofon Cadenza Bronze, Graham Slee Accession MC, Speakers Triangle Esprit Antal Ez, Cables VAN DEN HUL D-502 Hybrid,ATLAS Equator



Replies:
Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2020 at 5:56pm
Which roughly translates to:

Hi, I am purchasing a new cartridge for my P ****** t 2 SB Xperience and I was evaluating the Sumiko Blue point special lll evo, or Ortofon 2M Black. As a pre-phono I have a Graham Slee Reflex M. Thanks.

Personally, I think I would go with the 2M Bronze over the 2M Black, due to the fact I didn’t like the 2M Black I had. Never heard the Sumiko or the 2M Bronze though.


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Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.


Posted By: Aussie Mick
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2020 at 10:00pm
hi Vincenzo,
   I used a 2M Black and 2M Bronze with great satisfaction with my Reflex M. The Black had more detail, which I enjoyed, and the Bronze was a little less engaging for me. I haven’t heard the Sumiko. 
All the best,
Mick.


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Rega RP8 - Apheta 2 - Accession MC Enigma PS -Solo ULDE (Focal Utopia) - PS Audio M700 - Fical Kanta No2


Posted By: RichW
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2020 at 10:39am
Hi Vincenzo,
I owned the earlier Sumiko Blue Point Special a few years ago & let's just say that it defied
the myth of vinyl 'warmth' - it was 'bright & lively'. 
The latest Evo3 should be worth a listen though.

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Majestic/Enigma, Accession MM & MC.


Posted By: Vincenzo
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2020 at 11:08am
The Graham Reflex M has a fixed capacitance of 220 pF. It should work well with the Ortofon 2M. With the Sumiko it is a bit high.
Sumiko recommends a phono pre-amp with a maximum of 200 pF, so the Graham is a little bit over that. This may give the Sumiko a little lift in the treble.

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Amp. Musical Fidelity M6si,Turntables VPI Scout Signature, Cartridges Ortofon Cadenza Bronze, Graham Slee Accession MC, Speakers Triangle Esprit Antal Ez, Cables VAN DEN HUL D-502 Hybrid,ATLAS Equator


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2020 at 11:31am
Depends on how old it is. Very early Reflex M's might have been 220pF, but since 2013 they are 100pF. See spec below.


Reflex M phono stage specification



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That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps


Posted By: harryt
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2020 at 12:05pm
I have the Sumiko EVO 3 and am using it with the Reflex M. I have not tried the Ortofon. I do not find the sound to be overly bright considering that I am using the ProAc Response 1SC speakers which some people also call bright. With that said, the combination is very revealing and I do have some albums, especially some rock ones from the 70s, that have moments that I might consider overly bright. That just might be the way they were mastered. My classical and jazz albums are just fine and sound great. I have the Sumiko slightly tail down because I do not have ability to adjust the the tonearm height.
I hope this helps.
Stay safe,
Harry


Posted By: Vincenzo
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2020 at 4:28pm
Thanks, I'm intrigued about how it can sound in my system.

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Amp. Musical Fidelity M6si,Turntables VPI Scout Signature, Cartridges Ortofon Cadenza Bronze, Graham Slee Accession MC, Speakers Triangle Esprit Antal Ez, Cables VAN DEN HUL D-502 Hybrid,ATLAS Equator


Posted By: Lucabeer
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2020 at 10:04am
Ciao Vincenzo,

I have both a 2M Black and a Bronze in my system (Technics 1200 Mk2) with a Reflex M, and I can say: save the money and get the Bronze. Fantastic cartridge, and much less fussy (less surface noise IMHO) than the Black.

Anyway, both have a very neutral frequency response to my ear, and good tracking. The Black is slightly brighter and with a bit of aggressiveness, which is another reason I prefer the Bronze.

The only cartridge I prefer to them is the Nagaoka MP-500, which is slightly smoother and warmer and tracks even better... but it's rarer, more expensive, and it has a considerably lower output so it requires to turn the volume up a bit more.

BEWARE: the 4 pins on the back on the Ortofon 2M are very fragile, so be extra careful to avoid damage (I have had a bad experience...)


Posted By: Aussie Mick
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2020 at 11:52pm
A nice description of the Black vs Bronze! I must admit to very much enjoying both, but favoring the Black for serious listening and the Bronze for music while I did other things. However, that was with my old speakers, which had an amazing midrange and less treble brilliance than my current PMC pair. Again, system matching is vital. 
Please can you let us know which speakers you use? I dare say my love of the Black was very system dependent.
All the best,
Mick.


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Rega RP8 - Apheta 2 - Accession MC Enigma PS -Solo ULDE (Focal Utopia) - PS Audio M700 - Fical Kanta No2


Posted By: Vincenzo
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2020 at 6:41am
Hi, I have JM LAB 816 Cobalt

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Amp. Musical Fidelity M6si,Turntables VPI Scout Signature, Cartridges Ortofon Cadenza Bronze, Graham Slee Accession MC, Speakers Triangle Esprit Antal Ez, Cables VAN DEN HUL D-502 Hybrid,ATLAS Equator


Posted By: Vincenzo
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2020 at 6:53am
Hi, always turning around, I stumbled upon the Benz Micro and in particular the ACE S H, now the question is: for the pre-phono that I have and the turntable that I have, can it be fine? And above all, what do you think?

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Amp. Musical Fidelity M6si,Turntables VPI Scout Signature, Cartridges Ortofon Cadenza Bronze, Graham Slee Accession MC, Speakers Triangle Esprit Antal Ez, Cables VAN DEN HUL D-502 Hybrid,ATLAS Equator


Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2020 at 7:37am
The phono stage will be fine. I have no experience of the cartridge though.
The cartridge has been in production for about 15 years, so I think it will be good.

A review is here — https://www.hifinews.com/content/benz-micro-ace-sh-£595 - https://www.hifinews.com/content/benz-micro-ace-sh-£595


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Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.


Posted By: Vincenzo
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2020 at 5:12pm
Ciao, ho appena caricato un video su Youtube, non è eccezionale, ma non posso fare molto con la fotocamera che ho.
Ciao.
https://youtu.be/dPQmgtORI9E - https://youtu.be/dPQmgtORI9E


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Amp. Musical Fidelity M6si,Turntables VPI Scout Signature, Cartridges Ortofon Cadenza Bronze, Graham Slee Accession MC, Speakers Triangle Esprit Antal Ez, Cables VAN DEN HUL D-502 Hybrid,ATLAS Equator


Posted By: DT999
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2020 at 12:37am
Originally posted by Aussie Mick Aussie Mick wrote:

A nice description of the Black vs Bronze! I must admit to very much enjoying both, but favoring the Black for serious listening and the Bronze for music while I did other things. However, that was with my old speakers, which had an amazing midrange and less treble brilliance than my current PMC pair. Again, system matching is vital. 
Please can you let us know which speakers you use? I dare say my love of the Black was very system dependent.
All the best,
Mick.

I can't comment on the Black as I've not used it, but I have the Bronze which I use through my Reflex_M and am very happy with the detail and sound I get.

One thing that put me off the Black (other than extra cost) was numerous reports that they do not do very well with less than pristine records. As I buy lots of used, and even though I clean them with a RCM, I was still concerned at the potential extra surface noise.


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Rega Planar 3 > Accession MM / Thorens TD160 > Reflex M > Modwright LS100 tube preamp > Solo ULDE / Proprius > Monitor Audio Silver 500 / 2 x SVS SB1000 subwoofers


Posted By: Vincenzo
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2020 at 8:56pm
Meanwhile, today to pass the time I uploaded another video.
https://youtu.be/L67EXbU669I - https://youtu.be/L67EXbU669I


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Amp. Musical Fidelity M6si,Turntables VPI Scout Signature, Cartridges Ortofon Cadenza Bronze, Graham Slee Accession MC, Speakers Triangle Esprit Antal Ez, Cables VAN DEN HUL D-502 Hybrid,ATLAS Equator


Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2020 at 11:03pm
he title say Sting - Dream of Blue Turtles, but it sounds like Dire Straits - Telegraph road.

I am glad you are enjoying the Reflex M.

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Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.


Posted By: Vincenzo
Date Posted: 04 Apr 2020 at 7:00am
Hai ragione, il link è questo:   https://youtu.be/unRaHp-dUjc - https://youtu.be/unRaHp-dUjc

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Amp. Musical Fidelity M6si,Turntables VPI Scout Signature, Cartridges Ortofon Cadenza Bronze, Graham Slee Accession MC, Speakers Triangle Esprit Antal Ez, Cables VAN DEN HUL D-502 Hybrid,ATLAS Equator


Posted By: CageyH
Date Posted: 04 Apr 2020 at 9:11am
Originally posted by Vincenzo Vincenzo wrote:

Hai ragione, il link è questo:   https://youtu.be/unRaHp-dUjc - https://youtu.be/unRaHp-dUjc

Video not available. Cry


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Kevin
European loan coordinator, based near Toulouse, France.


Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 04 Apr 2020 at 9:59am
I'm a bit late to this thread . . .

If you want to hear a Sumiko BPS EVO III in action with Graham's phono amps check out my videos:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVRr-dTzRK5TbZJSSSwWs-g/search?view_as=subscriber&query=sumiko - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVRr-dTzRK5TbZJSSSwWs-g/search?view_as=subscriber&query=sumiko


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Bob

Majestic DAC/pre-amp
Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V
Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50
2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links


Posted By: Vincenzo
Date Posted: 04 Apr 2020 at 2:03pm
https://youtu.be/unRaHp-dUjc - https://youtu.be/unRaHp-dUjc

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Amp. Musical Fidelity M6si,Turntables VPI Scout Signature, Cartridges Ortofon Cadenza Bronze, Graham Slee Accession MC, Speakers Triangle Esprit Antal Ez, Cables VAN DEN HUL D-502 Hybrid,ATLAS Equator


Posted By: kgilroy
Date Posted: 04 Apr 2020 at 5:46pm
Originally posted by Vincenzo Vincenzo wrote:

https://youtu.be/unRaHp-dUjc - https://youtu.be/unRaHp-dUjc


Link shows video unavailable

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Keith

Marantz TT-15S1, Maestro V2, Accession MM, Icon Audio Stereo 40 Mk lll, Wharfedale Jade 3.

Mac Mini, BitPerfect, Dynaudio Xeo2

Marantz SA-15S1, Apple TV, Cambridge CXA60, B&W DM2000, REL Sub


Posted By: Vincenzo
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2020 at 5:33pm
Hello, every now and then I propose my questions, it will probably be due to the quarantine that I continue to do, but this does not mean that one day I will have to replace my cartridge.
By now I am fixated with high output MCs therefore in addition to seeing thanks to HIFI SHARK some interesting proposals on the BENZ MICRO ACE S I am evaluating the Dynavector DV-20x2H.
Thanks for understanding.


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Amp. Musical Fidelity M6si,Turntables VPI Scout Signature, Cartridges Ortofon Cadenza Bronze, Graham Slee Accession MC, Speakers Triangle Esprit Antal Ez, Cables VAN DEN HUL D-502 Hybrid,ATLAS Equator


Posted By: ServerBaboon
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2020 at 6:57pm
Checkout Hana high output cartridges as well if you can.


Originally posted by morris_minor morris_minor wrote:

I'm a bit late to this thread . . .

If you want to hear a Sumiko BPS EVO III in action with Graham's phono amps check out my videos:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVRr-dTzRK5TbZJSSSwWs-g/search?view_as=subscriber&query=sumiko - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVRr-dTzRK5TbZJSSSwWs-g/search?view_as=subscriber&query=sumiko

Missed this one, Lightning Head interesting.


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Steve

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Various bits of GSP Kit ..well two so far, unless you count the cables that is.



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