Print Page | Close Window

Vinyl Sound Signature

Printed From: Graham Slee Hifi System Components
Category: Turntable Audio
Forum Name: High Fidelity Turntable User
Forum Description: Technical Q&A, hints and tips
URL: https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4794
Printed Date: 29 Mar 2024 at 4:43am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Vinyl Sound Signature
Posted By: miT
Subject: Vinyl Sound Signature
Date Posted: 23 Sep 2019 at 8:02pm
Good evening to all the vinyl fans out there,

This is my most ambitious post ever so before I am escorted back to the other sections of this forum for everyone else's safety, brace yourselves...

In my search for a new digital audio player and mission to one day discover a real-world replacement for the HD540ii [enter maniacal laugh here], two high-end players I have been researching have varying descriptions of their specific SQ: one being "clean and precise", the other being "organic and pure".

While I am sadly unable to sample the musical bliss that vinyl provides as I am too heavily invested in digital music (forgive me), my years on this forum have confirmed that vinyl, analogue if you will, is the pinnacle of natural sound due to sounding organic. To my understanding its SQ when recorded well has, among other things, a natural warmth to it that is generally lost in digital formats. As I aim to achieve a true natural SQ, I feel that this warmth must be a vital  part of the picture but cannot quantify the complete SQ as I have not yet experienced it. My question then:

Can you please describe what analogue sounds like to you, especially in comparison to the digital equivalents? I know this one is even more obscure than usual but you really should be used to me by now... Embarrassed

Thanks,


Tim



Replies:
Posted By: John1479
Date Posted: 23 Sep 2019 at 8:15pm
Well that's a challenge Tim, 

I think, I may be some time..... Wink


-------------
John


Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 23 Sep 2019 at 8:35pm
Originally posted by John1479 John1479 wrote:

Well that's a challenge Tim, 

I think, I may be some time..... Wink
It will be worth the wait!


Posted By: patientot
Date Posted: 23 Sep 2019 at 10:25pm
Very difficult to describe. I love vinyl but I'm not of the opinion that vinyl always sounds better. I tend to be more format agnostic and the best sounding version of an album is not always the one that is on vinyl. It gets even more complicated when you start comparing different LP pressings and different CD pressings cut by different mastering engineers. To top it off, not all cartridges and downstream gear sound the same. 

If you are committed to digital I wouldn't worry too much about vinyl. If you have a friend that is into vinyl, go take a listen at their place if you are curious. Otherwise, don't worry about it. Just focus on getting the best sound you can get out of digital playback system. 


-------------
SL-1200 MK7 (modified) + Reflex M + PSU-1 used with AT150-40ML, AT VM95ML, Stanton 680mkII + Ogura, and Shure M35X cartridges.


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2019 at 9:32am
The following are my thoughts on vinyl.

Crosstalk: 25dB if you're lucky... "AAA" recordings also feature print-through and print-bleed from the magnetic tape, not forgetting tape saturation and tape drop-outs. In addition it will have passed through a number of amplifiers of different "leanings".

The cutting lathe master tape (a copy) will have been recorded at 7.5 ips, and the mastering engineer will have applied a number of fixes to get it "to fit" the dynamic range of a long player vinyl. These include compressors, limiters and de-essers, and possibly a noise gate.

Some of the clicks and pops you hear are where the swarf breaks off during the cutting of the lacquer, and during loud passages this swarf will be more random which could lead to more "hidden" noise. Some of the clicks and pops are due to air bubbles in the hot vinyl, which might not have received sufficient dwell-time during pressing.

Between 500 Hz and 2500 Hz, 14dB (5x) overload can be accommodated before breakover, reducing at lower and higher frequencies. This might account for some warmth?

The noise "floor" is about -58dB which will be mainly tape hiss and other garbage.

Therefore the total usable dynamic range is about 72dB which corresponds to 12 bits. However, the noise "floor" is "translucent" and small signals can be made out below it - a sort of mixing between noise and the softest parts of the music until it is lost in the noise - which might add another 2 bits of "depth".

If a cutting lathe master tape were to be used to master a CD, the 16 bits on offer would be more than adequate.

One resource says the frequency response of vinyl might extend to 26 kHz after which it is rolled off at 12dB per octave. In fact, it can be pushed to 40 kHz, the upper 20 kHz having been used for quadraphonic rear channel encoding. The difficulty is in getting a stylus to track such "tight bends".

And it is due to the falling ability of the stylus to track at high frequencies, especially the last track, that I would think most vinyl doesn't have much high frequency energy much above 15 kHz.

Moving magnet playback results in subtle treble boost between 10 kHz and 15 kHz. It peaks at only a decibel or less, and this is due to capacitive loading. Even without an intentional load capacitor, the arm wiring and cables contribute 75 - 100 pF.

It could be argued that with so much processing, the highs might be softer. Then again, distortion might increase considerably at high frequencies because of a number of combined factors (including "riding the peaks"), but near the limits of our hearing it might appear as "sweetness".

I am convinced that "red book" digital audio is nigh-on perfect and probably too perfect for the subsequent amplification. It is my opinion that the amplifier is the bottleneck where the differences are heard, and should we ever surmount the little talked about problems in power amplifier design, we will hear much less of a difference between sources (discounting noise that is).


-------------
That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps


Posted By: Chris Firth
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2019 at 9:38am
With what you've just outlined, Graham, it's a wonder it works as well as it does Smile




Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2019 at 9:40am
Originally posted by patientot patientot wrote:

Very difficult to describe. I love vinyl but I'm not of the opinion that vinyl always sounds better. I tend to be more format agnostic and the best sounding version of an album is not always the one that is on vinyl. It gets even more complicated when you start comparing different LP pressings and different CD pressings cut by different mastering engineers. To top it off, not all cartridges and downstream gear sound the same. 

If you are committed to digital I wouldn't worry too much about vinyl. If you have a friend that is into vinyl, go take a listen at their place if you are curious. Otherwise, don't worry about it. Just focus on getting the best sound you can get out of digital playback system. 
I agree and after investing so heavily in digital music since my teens, it is too late for me to convert. I am extremely happy with digital recordings because of the magic inside Graham's little boxes, but due to a change of circumstances (children, commuting via trains rather than driving, etc.) I now require a portable system which makes it extremely difficult to integrate even the Bitzie.

Graham's kit has always been my go to and he has my complete confidence, but as I now need to demo new kit I need to understand the natural sound-signature that I love so much as I cannot simply expect it to be there anymore. Sadly the the terms "natural" and "transparent" are overused in marketing but rarely lived up to. Considering that my 25+ year old HD540ii headphones still outperform the majority of the modern competition, I have a battle to wade through the rubbish so need to go in fore-armed.

My years involved with this forum have taught me that a well implemented analogue system playing an exemplary recording brings something unique to the table, a signature with body that sounds natural, almost tangible. While I understand that everyone's ears are different, a real musical instrument can only sound lifelike (albeit the frequencies people hear can alter their perception of it). This is what I wish to achieve, something that sounds real.

Hopefully that brings some clarity to the table as I realise my first post did not explain the reasons for my experiment.


Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2019 at 10:00am
Originally posted by Graham Slee Graham Slee wrote:

The following are my thoughts on vinyl.

Crosstalk: 25dB if you're lucky... "AAA" recordings also feature print-through and print-bleed from the magnetic tape, not forgetting tape saturation and tape drop-outs. In addition it will have passed through a number of amplifiers of different "leanings".

The cutting lathe master tape (a copy) will have been recorded at 7.5 ips, and the mastering engineer will have applied a number of fixes to get it "to fit" the dynamic range of a long player vinyl. These include compressors, limiters and de-essers, and possibly a noise gate.

Some of the clicks and pops you hear are where the swarf breaks off during the cutting of the lacquer, and during loud passages this swarf will be more random which could lead to more "hidden" noise. Some of the clicks and pops are due to air bubbles in the hot vinyl, which might not have received sufficient dwell-time during pressing.

Between 500 Hz and 2500 Hz, 14dB (5x) overload can be accommodated before breakover, reducing at lower and higher frequencies. This might account for some warmth?

The noise "floor" is about -58dB which will be mainly tape hiss and other garbage.

Therefore the total usable dynamic range is about 72dB which corresponds to 12 bits. However, the noise "floor" is "translucent" and small signals can be made out below it - a sort of mixing between noise and the softest parts of the music until it is lost in the noise - which might add another 2 bits of "depth".

If a cutting lathe master tape were to be used to master a CD, the 16 bits on offer would be more than adequate.

One resource says the frequency response of vinyl might extend to 26 kHz after which it is rolled off at 12dB per octave. In fact, it can be pushed to 40 kHz, the upper 20 kHz having been used for quadraphonic rear channel encoding. The difficulty is in getting a stylus to track such "tight bends".

And it is due to the falling ability of the stylus to track at high frequencies, especially the last track, that I would think most vinyl doesn't have much high frequency energy much above 15 kHz.

Moving magnet playback results in subtle treble boost between 10 kHz and 15 kHz. It peaks at only a decibel or less, and this is due to capacitive loading. Even without an intentional load capacitor, the arm wiring and cables contribute 75 - 100 pF.

It could be argued that with so much processing, the highs might be softer. Then again, distortion might increase considerably at high frequencies because of a number of combined factors (including "riding the peaks"), but near the limits of our hearing it might appear as "sweetness".

I am convinced that "red book" digital audio is nigh-on perfect and probably too perfect for the subsequent amplification. It is my opinion that the amplifier is the bottleneck where the differences are heard, and should we ever surmount the little talked about problems in power amplifier design, we will hear much less of a difference between sources (discounting noise that is).
Thanks Graham. Your technical knowledge puts a different spin on the whole issue, but perhaps it confirms something I have felt for a long time. High-end products are striving for "technical perfection" (i.e. on the spec sheet), but a lot of the time the most technologically advanced product sounds flawed or "feels too digital". Perhaps it's because we are imperfect ourselves so anything that is designed digitally will somehow sound wrong to us?

The Sennheiser HD800 seems to be a good example of this; technically amazing but they felt too analytical and many agree that the older HD540ii sound more correct. Could that be why Sennheiser quickly brought out a re-tuned upgrade?

I may have to look in to red book digital audio.


Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2019 at 10:03am
Originally posted by Chris Firth Chris Firth wrote:

With what you've just outlined, Graham, it's a wonder it works as well as it does Smile


Good point


Posted By: Chris Firth
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2019 at 10:21am
Originally posted by miT miT wrote:

I may have to look in to red book digital audio.


Red book outlines CD and its specifications.
You've been using it for years :)


Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2019 at 11:23am
Originally posted by Chris Firth Chris Firth wrote:

Red book outlines CD and its specifications.
You've been using it for years :)
Well at least someone knows what they are talking about... Embarrassed


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2019 at 12:34pm
The point I think I'm trying to make is that HF distorion - where the harmonics of the presence band live - has an overall effect on what we hear.

That distortion might be greater with vinyl, but might be more "distributed" and to some degree "rounded off" or even "skimmed over" by the stylus "riding" (a bit like aquaplaning).

With digital it is possible to reach such perfection that the amplifier's own HF distortion mechanisms can render it (the amplifier) more revealing of it; with the possible outcome being harshness or a brittle sound in comparison with vinyl.


-------------
That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps


Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2019 at 1:19pm
Originally posted by Graham Slee Graham Slee wrote:

The point I think I'm trying to make is that HF distorion - where the harmonics of the presence band live - has an overall effect on what we hear.

That distortion might be greater with vinyl, but might be more "distributed" and to some degree "rounded off" or even "skimmed over" by the stylus "riding" (a bit like aquaplaning).

With digital it is possible to reach such perfection that the amplifier's own HF distortion mechanisms can render it (the amplifier) more revealing of it; with the possible outcome being harshness or a brittle sound in comparison with vinyl.
Interesting, so digital potentially reproduces higher quality frequencies... This makes choosing the right DAP that much more crucial!


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2019 at 2:10pm
Originally posted by miT miT wrote:

This makes choosing the right DAP that much more crucial!


Plus the rest of the system!


-------------
That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps


Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2019 at 5:34pm
Originally posted by Graham Slee Graham Slee wrote:

Originally posted by miT miT wrote:

This makes choosing the right DAP that much more crucial!


Plus the rest of the system!
For the portable system, the plan is to go for a DAP that has everything in one package, amp, DAC, etc. as I carry too much kit with me as it is.

For a proper home system, I already have my Bitzie and when the boys are old enough to not attempt to break everything they see, adding some of your amps will be next.


Posted By: patientot
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2019 at 5:52pm
Originally posted by miT miT wrote:

For the portable system, the plan is to go for a DAP that has everything in one package, amp, DAC, etc. as I carry too much kit with me as it is.

If you are due for a phone upgrade I can recommend the LG V series and G series phones. They have a very good DAC and enough power to drive most "normal" headphones without the aid of anything else. I had a V20 and now have a V40. My wife has the G7 I think which IIRC has the same DAC. Although I much prefer to listen to my stereo system at home the V40 does the trick for portable listening. Although there are some very good DAPs out there I don't want to carry around a separate device either. 


-------------
SL-1200 MK7 (modified) + Reflex M + PSU-1 used with AT150-40ML, AT VM95ML, Stanton 680mkII + Ogura, and Shure M35X cartridges.


Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 24 Sep 2019 at 7:02pm
Originally posted by patientot patientot wrote:

If you are due for a phone upgrade I can recommend the LG V series and G series phones. They have a very good DAC and enough power to drive most "normal" headphones without the aid of anything else. I had a V20 and now have a V40. My wife has the G7 I think which IIRC has the same DAC. Although I much prefer to listen to my stereo system at home the V40 does the trick for portable listening. Although there are some very good DAPs out there I don't want to carry around a separate device either. 
Thanks for the suggestion. Ash has also recommended the LG V30 and it seems like a decent choice for a multitasking device. As phones go it sadly would not work for me as I favour my BlackBerry (I prefer physical keys).

My preference would be music player (phone, etc.) > Bitzie + powerbank > headphones/IEMs. Sadly that is too fussy for a crowded train, whereas a standalone DAP is simple enough to use. That is a discussion in another thread though. Wink


Posted By: Aussie Mick
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2019 at 3:15am
Hi All,
   I have CD’s from the very early days and at the time they sounded not very good. Now they sound excellent. I agree that the red book specs are good enough, but I think the early CD players just didn’t cut it. However, the low noise pushed turntable, cartridge and preamp designers to develop lower noise systems for LP. A good outcome.

Digital replay is now fantastic. I use two DACS (Majestic and Ch**d M*jo) and they have vastly different sound signatures. Both sound wonderful. Much like two really great cartridges that involve and impress, but sound very different. The choice available today is stonkingly good and we should all be grateful. It’s  so easy these days to get a system that you can be happy with for a very small amount of cash. 

Red book, as I said above, is excellent. However, I do like the extra flexibility higher resolutions give recording and mastering engineers to push noise out of the audible frequency band. Having said that, it’s my experience that LOTS of engineers aren’t taking advantage of it. I own a number of 96/24 and 192/24 recordings that sound no better than the 44.1/16 red book version. Buyer beware.

Which brings me to my final point on digital. The gulf between low-res mp3 and 44.1/16 is huge. A massively worthwhile jump. The gap from 44.1 to 48 can also be worthwhile and noticeable when done well, but is a much smaller jump ahead. From there it’s diminishing returns, I think. The wind has to be just right and the caffeine levels perfect for the higher-res versions to seem worthwhile to me. I think the cat has to be sleeping in the spare room and pointing west, too).

As for vinyl vs digital, I wonder if it’s simply down to digital being a design problem and vinyl a manufacturing problem. The LP replay mechanics seem so straightforward, but tough to machine to such tight tolerances. Everyone and his/her dog has a DAC on the market and it makes me think it must be REALLY EASY to do, but difficult to design exceptionally well.

I feel very lucky to be in a position to own the system I own. It’s super well balanced and the differences between LP, CD and hi-res replay are small. I’ve found balance. Vinyl is now my number 1 way to get hold of music I doubt will be reissued in any form. Streaming via Tidal is my way of hearing new music or easily taking favorite albums with me. My CD, download and LP collections get equal use at home.

Balance in Hi-Fi, as in life, is a beautiful thing. 
Cheers,
Mick.


-------------
Rega RP8 - Apheta 2 - Accession MC Enigma PS -Solo ULDE (Focal Utopia) - PS Audio M700 - Fical Kanta No2


Posted By: RichW
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2019 at 10:15am
The Red Book CD specification may be perfectly adequate but perfect wasn't the word
that first sprang to mind when describing the sound of early CD players.
Hard & bright with no front to back imaging. A soulless sound that could take the enamel
off your teeth.
Some 80s transistor amps & speakers no doubt exacerbated the problem.
CD sound has improved vastly & it would be interesting to try an early Phillips player
now. 



-------------
Majestic/Enigma, Accession MM & MC.


Posted By: patientot
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2019 at 8:52pm
Originally posted by Aussie Mick Aussie Mick wrote:


As for vinyl vs digital, I wonder if it’s simply down to digital being a design problem and vinyl a manufacturing problem. The LP replay mechanics seem so straightforward, but tough to machine to such tight tolerances. Everyone and his/her dog has a DAC on the market and it makes me think it must be REALLY EASY to do, but difficult to design exceptionally well.




Yes, definitely re: DACs. There is great stuff out there and not so great. A high price tag is no guarantee of high performance either. I sometimes visit a site where an engineer measures various DACs from quite cheap to very expensive and you would be shocked at the performance of some of these pieces of gear. Recently a DAC that starts at $6,000 USD (more if options/upgrades are purchased) was measured (with Audio Precision equipment) and the S/N ratio was shockingly bad for a supposed state of the art piece of equipment. Worse than many CD players from the 80s, matter of fact. 

I'm also with you on hi-rez digital audio. I've purchased quite a few albums on 24/96, 24/192, and even a couple pure DSD recordings (recorded and edited in DSD). My takeaway is that it comes down to the mastering, not the bitrate if we are talking sound quality. If it's an older album that was recorded on tape, the condition and generation of the tape source also play a huge role. 


-------------
SL-1200 MK7 (modified) + Reflex M + PSU-1 used with AT150-40ML, AT VM95ML, Stanton 680mkII + Ogura, and Shure M35X cartridges.


Posted By: patientot
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2019 at 8:57pm
Originally posted by RichW RichW wrote:

The Red Book CD specification may be perfectly adequate but perfect wasn't the word
that first sprang to mind when describing the sound of early CD players.
Hard & bright with no front to back imaging. A soulless sound that could take the enamel
off your teeth.
Some 80s transistor amps & speakers no doubt exacerbated the problem.
CD sound has improved vastly & it would be interesting to try an early Phillips player
now. 


Awhile back I bought a used Philips player from the mid 80s. This was one of the players that used the famous swing arm transport and the TDA1541 DAC chips (R2R design). 

I can't say I was hugely impressed over listening to a slightly later generation CD player with a more common D-S design DAC chip or a newer player. In in the end I sold it. 

I think DAC chips advanced fairly quickly in the 80s as time went on. No reason to be using those old R2R chips or something like a first gen 14 bit chip nowadays. IMHO anyway. 


-------------
SL-1200 MK7 (modified) + Reflex M + PSU-1 used with AT150-40ML, AT VM95ML, Stanton 680mkII + Ogura, and Shure M35X cartridges.


Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2019 at 8:20am
Originally posted by Aussie Mick Aussie Mick wrote:

I own a number of 96/24 and 192/24 recordings that sound no better than the 44.1/16 red book version. Buyer beware.

Which brings me to my final point on digital. The gulf between low-res mp3 and 44.1/16 is huge. A massively worthwhile jump. The gap from 44.1 to 48 can also be worthwhile and noticeable when done well, but is a much smaller jump ahead. From there it’s diminishing returns, I think. The wind has to be just right and the caffeine levels perfect for the higher-res versions to seem worthwhile to me. I think the cat has to be sleeping in the spare room and pointing west, too).

As for vinyl vs digital, I wonder if it’s simply down to digital being a design problem and vinyl a manufacturing problem. The LP replay mechanics seem so straightforward, but tough to machine to such tight tolerances. Everyone and his/her dog has a DAC on the market and it makes me think it must be REALLY EASY to do, but difficult to design exceptionally well.
There was a discussion on here a while ago and if I remember correctly, Graham explained that the increasingly "high res" music is actually counter productive as the speakers/headphones play frequencies that the human ear cannot process, essentially effecting the replay of the frequencies we can hear. The benefit I have found from these tracks is that more effort goes into mastering them so the noise floor(?) (background hiss, etc.) is minimised, likely by pushing it into a frequency we do not hear as well.

The gap between lower res digital files can be huge, although I can live with 320kbps CBR rather than replace all of my old purchases. I usually buy as high quality as I wish to justify the cost of and then convert down to 44.1/16-bit uncompressed flac. Comparing between the original higher res and CD standard after converting, I cannot hear a difference.

There are far too many DACs out there and IMO, they all play a significant part in altering people's perception of what "good" actually sounds like. I am waiting for the day when people complain that a live, acoustic performance of classical music is not high res enough...


Posted By: Chris Firth
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2019 at 9:32am
Originally posted by miT miT wrote:

I am waiting for the day when people complain that a live, acoustic performance of classical music is not high res enough...


I know of folk who never attend concerts because it never sounds as good live as it does on the Hi-FiLOL


Posted By: patientot
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2019 at 1:34pm
Originally posted by Chris Firth Chris Firth wrote:

Originally posted by miT miT wrote:

I am waiting for the day when people complain that a live, acoustic performance of classical music is not high res enough...


I know of folk who never attend concerts because it never sounds as good live as it does on the Hi-FiLOL

A sad crowd IMHO. It's been a few years since I saw a symphony live but the experience is a lot more intense than listening at home.

The majority of the "rock" shows I've been to over the last few years sounded far better than the artists' latest recorded material, mainly due to the fact that live you're not getting all the compression and limiting that kills the dynamic range. 


-------------
SL-1200 MK7 (modified) + Reflex M + PSU-1 used with AT150-40ML, AT VM95ML, Stanton 680mkII + Ogura, and Shure M35X cartridges.


Posted By: Ernie
Date Posted: 27 Sep 2019 at 6:38pm
 I have to disagree that the difference between Red Book and Hi Res can’t be heard.

I’ve always been a bit disappointed ripping CDs to flac they never sound as good as the CD. The CD players I’ve used are Naim cd3.5 and latterly a Cyrus transport into a Majestic (sublime).

The rip was being played via a Sonos Connect to DacMagic and now Majestic. Not as good as the cd. I tried Tidal and it was a lot better than the rip but still not up to the cd-t and Majestic.

Next I went mad and bought a Cyrus Stream X Signature* and a subscription to Qobuz. It’s astounding, expensive and people may think me foolish for doing it but played via a Majestic and Proprius amps astounding.

I’ve played the same tracks at different bit rates and you can hear the difference, hard to put into words but the sound gets more expansive reaching further and further beyond the speakers as the bit rate increases. Its the only way I can explain the sound, bigger, more solid and more control.

Now add an Enigma PSU. WOW!!! If you own a Majestic at least loan an Enigma to try it out.

*The Cyrus Signature sounds amazing but the phone app to run it is awful. A proper case of ying and yang.



-------------
There are 10 kinds of people. Those who understand binary and those who don't.


Posted By: Lucabeer
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2019 at 10:02am
Originally posted by Ernie Ernie wrote:

I’ve always been a bit disappointed ripping CDs to flac they never sound as good as the CD. The CD players I’ve used are Naim cd3.5 and latterly a Cyrus transport into a Majestic (sublime).

The rip was being played via a Sonos Connect to DacMagic and now Majestic. Not as good as the cd. I tried Tidal and it was a lot better than the rip but still not up to the cd-t and Majestic.


Well, this leaves me puzzled, as it is completely impossibile.

A CD played in a player/transport and output at 16/44.1 into a Majestic must sound absolutely identical to the rip of the same CD fed from whatever source at 16/44.1 into the same Majestic.

It's the DAC (the Majestic) that defines the sound signature, not the rest of the chain.

The only real (=not psychological) difference could be explained if the two sources were doing a different kind of upsampling. But if they are both outputting 16/44.1 into the same DAC, no way a difference can be heard.


Posted By: Chris Firth
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2019 at 10:48am
Originally posted by Lucabeer Lucabeer wrote:

Originally posted by Ernie Ernie wrote:

I’ve always been a bit disappointed ripping CDs to flac they never sound as good as the CD. The CD players I’ve used are Naim cd3.5 and latterly a Cyrus transport into a Majestic (sublime).

The rip was being played via a Sonos Connect to DacMagic and now Majestic. Not as good as the cd. I tried Tidal and it was a lot better than the rip but still not up to the cd-t and Majestic.


Well, this leaves me puzzled, as it is completely impossibile.

A CD played in a player/transport and output at 16/44.1 into a Majestic must sound absolutely identical to the rip of the same CD fed from whatever source at 16/44.1 into the same Majestic.

It's the DAC (the Majestic) that defines the sound signature, not the rest of the chain.

The only real (=not psychological) difference could be explained if the two sources were doing a different kind of upsampling. But if they are both outputting 16/44.1 into the same DAC, no way a difference can be heard.


I wouldn't say completely impossible.
I used to use Replaygain settings with my Squeezebox setup.
The Replaygain prevented the levels changing dramatically from album to album, and protected my speakers from creating the magic smoke.

One day I purchased a Raspberry Pi, and moved my Squeezebox server off a Windows desktop onto the RasPi, and noticed that sound quality had taken a step up.
As the old server was still up and running I pointed the player at it, and the sound quality took a step back.
I eventually pinpointed that I hadn't set up Replaygain on the RasPi, so I turned the settings off on the old server, and did the same track test between the servers, and this time there was no difference in sound quality.

Looking at the Sonos player I see that it's possible to switch the device to having fixed full output.
I'd suggest using it.
Ramping the volume up on the Sonos will not replicate the effect of fixing the volume, as the volume control is still in circuit.
It's the same with the Squeezeboxes.




Posted By: Lucabeer
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2019 at 1:22pm
Well, that makes sense: it was implicit to me that the rip was streamed to the DAC without any replaygain. With this assumption, it's the same exact bitstream of the CD.

I agree that replaygain (or whatever algorithm that alters the original bitstream) can make the file have a different sound indeed.


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2019 at 2:20pm
I use replaygain and the digital volume control for convenience in my day to day listening. Each one changes the sound and it is better when I switch both off (as Chris says above) apart from the jumps in volume. Luckily no smoke from my speakers. Yet!

I wonder if this thread might be mistitled and in the wrong place?


-------------
Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: patientot
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2019 at 4:03pm
I have over 4,000 CDs here and many of them are ripped to 16/44. Even with different DACs (all of reasonable quality) I have never noticed major differences in sound from the physical CD vs. the FLAC rip. I do not use Replay Gain generally and do not apply additional processing to my CD rips, except where they have special encoding that needs to be decoded - e.g. Pre-Emphasis or HDCD. In those cases I apply the proper decoding to the file and do not decode on the fly. 

One thing that I have noticed is that some programs like Plex compress audio and insert gaps as files are transmitted over wifi. For that reason I do not use Plex. 

I do still play my physical CDs when I can because I like physical discs for nostalgic and subjective reasons. This has nothing to do with sound quality. 

My 2 cents. 


-------------
SL-1200 MK7 (modified) + Reflex M + PSU-1 used with AT150-40ML, AT VM95ML, Stanton 680mkII + Ogura, and Shure M35X cartridges.


Posted By: John1479
Date Posted: 30 Sep 2019 at 9:52pm
Why has my John Martyn post been removed? 

House cleaning?  Nonsense! 

It's no wonder there are only a handful of members posting. Apart from the admins, censors and long-term owners. 

One day we all loose our dexterity, normally long after the hearing has already  deteriorated. Who will be left to contribute to forums, when all the old crowd have only got memories. Such a pity. 

You can keep you ball. And I'll keep mine!  You can delete ALL my Posts, whilst you're at it. Including the Fremer correspondence. We can all go back to harmony in the playground. LOL

It was fun, for a brief time. But I really don't feel I can stomach this sort of Arrogance and Bigotry. 

I reckon a man should be much more than his own opinions. Smile






-------------
John


Posted By: Chris Firth
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2019 at 9:02am
Originally posted by John1479 John1479 wrote:

Why has my John Martyn post been removed? 

House cleaning?  Nonsense! 

It's no wonder there are only a handful of members posting. Apart from the admins, censors and long-term owners. 

One day we all loose our dexterity, normally long after the hearing has already  deteriorated. Who will be left to contribute to forums, when all the old crowd have only got memories. Such a pity. 

You can keep you ball. And I'll keep mine!  You can delete ALL my Posts, whilst you're at it. Including the Fremer correspondence. We can all go back to harmony in the playground. LOL

It was fun, for a brief time. But I really don't feel I can stomach this sort of Arrogance and Bigotry. 

I reckon a man should be much more than his own opinions. Smile






It hasn't been removed.
It's still where you left it.
I might have made comment on it, and my opinion remains unchanged, but nobody has done anything with it.

And as I can see from the above, you do have a problem with throwing accusations at folk with little or no grounds.


Posted By: gwebster
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2019 at 10:29am
Originally posted by John1479 John1479 wrote:

Why has my John Martyn post been removed? 

House cleaning?  Nonsense! 
To clarify things a little, your John Martyn post is still online right where you put it, which isn't in this topic.

It's sitting in " https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/essentials-for-testing_topic4792_page6.html - https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/essentials-for-testing_topic4792_page6.html

Any chance we can get this thread back on topic?



Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 01 Oct 2019 at 6:43pm
When Graham started developing the DACs I remember him explaining that customers back then had asked if he could make digital gear that sounded as good as his phono stages. That made a lot of sense at the time as an idea and so I can see how this topic in 'hifi turntables' has veared towards digital that that sounds like a pure analogue source.




-------------
Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: Aussie Mick
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2019 at 2:38am
Computers and laptops are notorious for injecting noise into your system, hence the active market in machines devoted to music replay. When playing into my Majestic my MacBook Pro sounds “different” from my Toshiba laptop. With my Mac, a difference can be heard (subtle) between a file stored on an external drive and the same file stored locally. 
I usually prefer a CD played from my transport to the same thing played via a rip. 
The bits might be bits, but all of he other stuff makes a difference.
Mick.


-------------
Rega RP8 - Apheta 2 - Accession MC Enigma PS -Solo ULDE (Focal Utopia) - PS Audio M700 - Fical Kanta No2


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2019 at 8:07am
Mick, well said!

As each of my PCs has died and were replaced, the more difficult it's been to get a satisfactory sound. My latest office PC sounds so bad I had the previous one "reincarnated" at some considerable cost, and it is now the equivalent of a juke box (with no other use). It has DS, KS, WASAPI (event and push) as well as ASIO4ALL v2. On that machine WASAPI push sounds better than ASIO4ALL v2, which wasn't the case with the PC before it.

I also have a few CD transports. Using S/PDIF outputs, they all sound different, and to my ears the "dirt" cheap DVD player beats my Marantz CD player by a significant margin. You don't need golden ears.


-------------
That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps


Posted By: RichW
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2019 at 8:46am
Going back to Tim's original question for a mo'.
'Can you please describe what analogue sounds like to you, especially in comparison to the digital equivalents?'
It's a very personal thing but LP at its best generally has a more convincing way with tonal & timbral
definition and soundstaging, but CD tends to have more drive & a more 'powerful' sound...
The 'generally' caveat 'cos so much depends on recording quality, LP condition, turntable setup etc. etc. 



-------------
Majestic/Enigma, Accession MM & MC.


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2019 at 11:39am
Regarding the CD "loudness wars"; if the same master as used to produce the cutting head tape for vinyl, is used for the CD version, via a compressor to obtain the required "loudness", then any high pitched section of the recording sends it all high pitched like a swarm of bees round a beehive.

I am just pointing out how the electronics works (which is why I explained "mixer gain").

I would have thought such an explanation would be bang-on-topic?

-------------
That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2019 at 12:02pm
The above effect can be heard on the Pet Shop Boys "I'm not scared" from "Introspective", where the compressor follows the highs on the digital version, but the vinyl keeps it "flat".

I guess such differences might be common to pop and rock, and less so with classical.


-------------
That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2019 at 12:16pm
In fact, the above album in digital is (thanks to the compression) "dressed" with high frequency second-harmonic distortion, which is highly distracting, and is the complete opposite on vinyl, on which it has the feel of a professional presentation.

Now, if you were only to play audiphile recordings the above might not matter, but I don't have any, and prefer to listen to the more common stuff, with which I try to make electronic circuits give a good representation. However, it is impossible with much in digital audio to do that without the addition of the dreaded tone controls.


-------------
That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps


Posted By: RichW
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2019 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by Graham Slee Graham Slee wrote:


I am just pointing out how the electronics works (which is why I explained "mixer gain").

I would have thought such an explanation would be bang-on-topic?

No one is suggesting otherwise.
I merely went back to Tim's original specific question - being a bit too slow to post owt before.Confused



-------------
Majestic/Enigma, Accession MM & MC.


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2019 at 1:21pm
Oh sh**! I didn't mean to cause any tifs Embarrassed


-------------
That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2019 at 1:50pm
Perhaps I've been a bit too technical, but I have tried to explain the differences in SQ between vinyl and digital the best way I could.

Although there are no "saints" in vinyl production (my opinion), there are many more "devils" in digital manipulation (my opinion again).

Vinyl cannot be pushed very far before something "breaks", whereas with digital there seems to be no bounds.

Therefore, in my opinion, even though I have been on record as saying red book CD should be perfect, vinyl is nearer the truth.

And being technical again, if something has been de-essed, it doesn't take the ess away in entirety, it just takes some energy out of it, and that alone can reduce "reactive distortion" further down the reproduction chain.

Unfortunately, we have all been led down a blind alley regarding the "perfection" of electronics. Everything is fudged to some extent. Pure maths, as those who properly study it will say, is utopian, and mathematical modelling supplants pure maths in the real world. It is also admitted that even mathematical modelling is an approximation.

Everything in the reproduction chain is reactive, and what you hear isn't the source at all, but the way the equipment produces a facsimile of it.

This also applies to the "way in". So it will always be down to the care given, and to the motives around any fudging. Vinyl in which case, is to me the lesser of evils - the least ultimately distorted outcome - and so to sum it up, vinyl is more real, with the caveat that the same care is used in its reproduction.

I hope some of this makes some sense. Wink


-------------
That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps


Posted By: John1479
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2019 at 3:47pm
Originally posted by gwebster gwebster wrote:

Originally posted by John1479 John1479 wrote:

Why has my John Martyn post been removed? 

House cleaning?  Nonsense! 
To clarify things a little, your John Martyn post is still online right where you put it, which isn't in this topic.

It's sitting in " https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/essentials-for-testing_topic4792_page6.html - https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/essentials-for-testing_topic4792_page6.html

Any chance we can get this thread back on topic?



Dear fellow members, 

Ouch. That was a mistake!

I won't make any excuses, I have none. I can't even blame drink nor drugs....

I thought I'd let this rest for a day or so and allow my embittered Arrogance to take ‎full responsibility for my rash reaction.  Also, giving plenty of time for justified mocking and humiliation. Not something I welcome, nor encourage, but, under the circumstances, deserved. Cry

It appears I have got my threads crossed and blown an output stage out of all proportion.

I apologise Whole‎heartedly for any upset caused to all and particularly to Chris Firth and Graham, and to the forum administration and moderators. 

I will take some time to think about my actions and whether there is any real benefit or purpose to voicing my strongly held views here, or elsewhere for that matter.   ‎As I have made my opinions plain, I think it best that I just get my coat. 

Sincerely, John.






-------------
John


Posted By: Chris Firth
Date Posted: 02 Oct 2019 at 3:52pm
Welcome back John Smile


Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2019 at 8:19pm
Originally posted by John1479 John1479 wrote:

Dear fellow members, 

Ouch. That was a mistake!

I won't make any excuses, I have none. I can't even blame drink nor drugs....

I thought I'd let this rest for a day or so and allow my embittered Arrogance to take ‎full responsibility for my rash reaction.  Also, giving plenty of time for justified mocking and humiliation. Not something I welcome, nor encourage, but, under the circumstances, deserved. Cry

It appears I have got my threads crossed and blown an output stage out of all proportion.

I apologise Whole‎heartedly for any upset caused to all and particularly to Chris Firth and Graham, and to the forum administration and moderators. 

I will take some time to think about my actions and whether there is any real benefit or purpose to voicing my strongly held views here, or elsewhere for that matter.   ‎As I have made my opinions plain, I think it best that I just get my coat. 

Sincerely, John.
Hi John,

Things did get a little heated but I was brought up knowing that it takes the bigger man to admit when he is wrong and/or walk away from the fight. Count to ten, breathe, and then join us again mate. Everyone is welcome.

Not meaning to draw attention to the past but one of your comments about this forum's ruler , etc. needs to be clarified. Graham has created a safe-haven for enthusiasts to mingle with an understanding that respect for each other is a priority. I am yet to find that elsewhere on the internet but ultimately that is why we don't have [many of?] these sorts of spats, even though everyone is welcome to have their own opinions. We are all in this for the same goal, musical bliss.

Laugh it off and welcome back mate. Thumbs Up


Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2019 at 8:25pm
Originally posted by RichW RichW wrote:

Going back to Tim's original question for a mo'.
'Can you please describe what analogue sounds like to you, especially in comparison to the digital equivalents?'
It's a very personal thing but LP at its best generally has a more convincing way with tonal & timbral
definition and soundstaging, but CD tends to have more drive & a more 'powerful' sound...
The 'generally' caveat 'cos so much depends on recording quality, LP condition, turntable setup etc. etc. 

Thanks Rich. At least someone was listening... LOL


Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2019 at 8:59pm
Hi Graham,

There is nothing wrong with being so technical about it, but just remember that us mere mortals are on a few levels behind you. Wink

Originally posted by Graham Slee Graham Slee wrote:

Therefore, in my opinion, even though I have been on record as saying red book CD should be perfect, vinyl is nearer the truth.


That is exactly what caused me to venture into the the unknown [part of the forum] and ask my original question. I don't know if it is simply that vinyl fans have better playback equipment as standard or simply invested more thought into the chain in general but to my understanding and putting aside variables in mastering quality, etc., vinyl seems to be more "real" and that is the (subjective) sound signature I want to understand.

I think I mentioned before that to my mind, we are "analogue" beings so while on paper digital is technically correct, it always seems to be missing something physical. Digital fans do invest in DACs afterall; maybe that should be enough of a hint... LOL

Originally posted by Graham Slee Graham Slee wrote:


Everything in the reproduction chain is reactive, and what you hear isn't the source at all, but the way the equipment produces a facsimile of it.

This also applies to the "way in". So it will always be down to the care given, and to the motives around any fudging. Vinyl in which case, is to me the lesser of evils - the least ultimately distorted outcome - and so to sum it up, vinyl is more real, with the caveat that the same care is used in its reproduction.

I hope some of this makes some sense. Wink
I wholeheartedly agree, as mentioned above. Perhaps the ease of compiling a digital playback chain (which should all be "technically correct" as it is digital afterall) adds to the problem whereas vinyl highlights incompatibility more? Or perhaps vinyl fans are generally far more experienced in their tastes and systems? e.g. What would be the vinyl equivalent of using a PC as your music source; a gramaphone I guess? How many vinyl fans (if any) would compromise like that, whereas for digital systems that is almost the norm. But how much audiophile knowledge goes into creating an HDD or solid state memory so that it sounds natural? And that is just the first stage... Geek

I could ramble on for a long time but RichW rightly pointed out my original aim of this rollercoaster thread. Big smile


Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2019 at 9:31pm
Maybe as a petrolhead I can give a further example with transport:

Older vehicles had less electronics (or none depending on how far you go back) but were far more involving (and RWD!). The physical interaction made you feel part of driving, and that brought more enjoyment to it. To further prove this Chris Harris (journalist, racer, Tv presenter) has openly stated his favourite car is a Citroen 2CV because of how involved it makes you.

One of the biggest complaints among enthusiasts about newer vehicles is that they are "soulless", in no way involving as the electronics take care of everything, too smooth, quiet, lacking physical interaction, etc., which ultimately results in being less involved with the experience.

I know I can transfer my digital files when I feel like, play it in 10 years' time and expect (nothing is guaranteed, naturally) that they will sound the same. I can also skip songs, albums, etc. without a care in the world, but that makes me less focussed on the music as I am more likely to be doing something else at the same time.

I may have this completely wrong but vinyl collectors invest effort to look after both their playback system and the actual records themselves. When the record comes out and the needle goes down, it is with ultimate care, and this in my mind adds to it all being more of an experience to be savoured, builds up the anticipation...

The only time I get close with digital is when I use the physical media (CDs, blu-rays, etc.); I focus on watching, listening, etc. when I exert "effort" before I get to press play but my music "system" is a PC with absolutely no thought put into its musical abilities apart from my powered Bitzie.

Or am I over-thinking life again?


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2019 at 9:35pm
Has anyone produced high quality digital rips of some of their vinyl recordings and done AB blind tests of the direct vinyl reproduction against the digital recording? How significant is the difference?


Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2019 at 9:46pm
Originally posted by Ash Ash wrote:

Has anyone produced high quality digital rips of some of their vinyl recordings and done AB blind tests of the direct vinyl reproduction against the digital recording? How significant is the difference?
Just to be difficult, wouldn't it be an unfair comparison if you don't go back to the analogue mastering media? I would presume it to be different going from HD digital to analogue but aren't there a number of atmospheric variables involved in ripping vinyl recordings which could ultimately alter the sound?


Posted By: patientot
Date Posted: 06 Oct 2019 at 10:25pm
Originally posted by miT miT wrote:

Originally posted by Ash Ash wrote:

Has anyone produced high quality digital rips of some of their vinyl recordings and done AB blind tests of the direct vinyl reproduction against the digital recording? How significant is the difference?
Just to be difficult, wouldn't it be an unfair comparison if you don't go back to the analogue mastering media? I would presume it to be different going from HD digital to analogue but aren't there a number of atmospheric variables involved in ripping vinyl recordings which could ultimately alter the sound?

Indeed there are. I know a couple of guys that do high-end vinyl rips they share with a small number of people. I also know of a record label that has admitted to me they master from vinyl to create CD reissues where original tapes are no longer available. Even with click removal and noise software and sophisticated devices like the Sugarcube, there is going to be some noise getting through. Try to remove all of it through aggressive NR and you'll end up with a dead, lifeless sound because you are also removing bits of the music.

The issue with vinyl rips, no matter how expensive the gear used to make them is, is that the folks that make these rips usually have systems that are adding some level of sonic coloration to the process. That's before we get to things like record/groove wear, which is often a factor on pre-owned vinyl. 

I'm not saying some of these "vinyl rips" can't be enjoyable to listen to - they can be, but in general I do not prefer them over a good digital mastering where a decent tape source was available and the work was done by a good mastering engineer. The majority of the time they are of historical interest to me only. Exceptions occur where no good CD/digital version exists because of things like overly compressed digital mastering, lost tapes, damaged tapes, etc. 

Odds are if an album is older and a somewhat popular or very popular title that has been released on CD and digitally a number of times, is that somewhere along the line, someone did a good job with the mastering and used a good source tape. That doesn't mean that an LP version might not sound subjectively better to some folks, but if you're not already committed to vinyl you shouldn't worry about it and instead just try to find the best CD/digital version available (for a reasonable price). 


-------------
SL-1200 MK7 (modified) + Reflex M + PSU-1 used with AT150-40ML, AT VM95ML, Stanton 680mkII + Ogura, and Shure M35X cartridges.


Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2022 at 7:26pm
Today into work a work mate asked me if knew anything about green vinyl as he had been asked the question, It was the first I'd heard of it, I then said you don't mean a green records and he said no these are a more environmentally friendly way of making records, they are made by a Dutch firm apparently. Has anyone heard of this?

-------------
Reflex M, Solo (both with PSU-1) CuSat50, Lautus, Spatia & Spatia links cables. Ortofon Bronze.


Posted By: patientot
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2022 at 7:40pm
Originally posted by lfc jon lfc jon wrote:

Today into work a work mate asked me if knew anything about green vinyl as he had been asked the question, It was the first I'd heard of it, I then said you don't mean a green records and he said no these are a more environmentally friendly way of making records, they are made by a Dutch firm apparently. Has anyone heard of this?


In the 60s and 70s some U.S. plants would take old records and grind them up to make new records, paper label and all. Sometimes you'd find one where bits of paper were embedded into groove that were clearly visible. Bad for the stylus and also makes extra noise.

I'm not sure what firm you're referring to but all record pressing plants use some regrind in the vinyl mix or find ways to recycle scrap PVC to a third party.

Where things get dicey is when too much regrind is used and that makes a noisy record. I know of one plant in Scandinavia that grinds up all the edge trim and used records and throws it back into the hopper. Sadly I don't think their records are very good and have a high proportion of defects due to this. I had to try 3 copies of one record from that plant to get one I could even live with.




-------------
SL-1200 MK7 (modified) + Reflex M + PSU-1 used with AT150-40ML, AT VM95ML, Stanton 680mkII + Ogura, and Shure M35X cartridges.


Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2022 at 8:34pm
Harm Theunisse, owner of Green Vinyl Records in Eindhoven are making them, they are making them out of Polyethylene therephthalate (Pet) rather than polyvinyl chloride (PVC)
They say , their team has spent the last seven years developing it, but here is the rub they do admit the record will cost more. Apparently the plant is up and running and they do have lebels signed up to make records for them.
Does this mean we will have to call the Pet records rather than Vinyl recordsWink
I wonder how much more they will cost over vinyl, I don't think people will buy Pet records if they cost a lot more, if they can get the same record on vinyl for a lot less, I'd say I would buy if they cost say £1 or £2 more but if it was £5 more then no. Have to wait and see. 


-------------
Reflex M, Solo (both with PSU-1) CuSat50, Lautus, Spatia & Spatia links cables. Ortofon Bronze.


Posted By: patientot
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2022 at 8:47pm
Originally posted by lfc jon lfc jon wrote:

Harm Theunisse, owner of Green Vinyl Records in Eindhoven are making them, they are making them out of Polyethylene therephthalate (Pet) rather than polyvinyl chloride (PVC)
They say , their team has spent the last seven years developing it, but here is the rub they do admit the record will cost more. Apparently the plant is up and running and they do have lebels signed up to make records for them.
Does this mean we will have to call the Pet records rather than Vinyl recordsWink
I wonder how much more they will cost over vinyl, I don't think people will buy Pet records if they cost a lot more, if they can get the same record on vinyl for a lot less, I'd say I would buy if they cost say £1 or £2 more but if it was £5 more then no. Have to wait and see. 


Time will tell if it works out. If the records end up noisy or wearing down faster than a regular PVC LP, then there's going to be a problem. More bad records for the landfill.


-------------
SL-1200 MK7 (modified) + Reflex M + PSU-1 used with AT150-40ML, AT VM95ML, Stanton 680mkII + Ogura, and Shure M35X cartridges.


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2022 at 9:29pm
Agreed about the test being the sound of the playing surface, we are all familiar with the 'vinyl roar' and the noisy sound of reused vinyl. It will be interesting to hear PET on gaps or silent grooves. And how the music sounds when pressed into PET, of course.

-------------
Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2022 at 9:34pm
VE's pet puns made me chuckle. I don't want to parrot them but you'll be having kittens when you see the prices...

-------------
Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2022 at 9:56pm
Originally posted by Fatmangolf Fatmangolf wrote:

VE's pet puns made me chuckle. I don't want to parrot them but you'll be having kittens when you see the prices...

LOLLOLLOL


-------------
Reflex M, Solo (both with PSU-1) CuSat50, Lautus, Spatia & Spatia links cables. Ortofon Bronze.


Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2022 at 10:17pm
Apparently they will be more durable than vinyl and the sound quality will be the same, So the artical said.
It's funny I just posted about green vinyl when this artical came up on my phone, It was from the BBC.
It's all going to come down to cost.
It's a bit like these HD vinyl records I was reading about a few years ago, not heard any more about that, I wonder if that was down to cost, I mean if HD vinyl is better then people may pay for it  but if Pet records is going to be no better are they going to be willing to pay more!! You only have to look at SACD, that never really took off. It seems that sound quality now a days as taken a backwards step and covenience is what people want (streaming)


-------------
Reflex M, Solo (both with PSU-1) CuSat50, Lautus, Spatia & Spatia links cables. Ortofon Bronze.


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2022 at 10:35pm
How can it be green vinyl if it is not vinyl?

-------------
That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps


Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2022 at 10:36pm
Originally posted by Graham Slee Graham Slee wrote:

How can it be green vinyl if it is not vinyl?
Good pointClap


-------------
Reflex M, Solo (both with PSU-1) CuSat50, Lautus, Spatia & Spatia links cables. Ortofon Bronze.


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2022 at 11:23pm
I saw the BBC article on Sunday and was curious. It is a quirky name and I agree with Graham's point on that. The name PET Sounds had already gone of course!

Lower energy and cost could allow more records to be pressed but it would need to be quicker or have more presses running clearly. Green is good but the business model depends on overall demand for records staying high or even growing, keeping prices down on the PET records as Jon said.

Harder may mean longer lasting records and perhaps faster stylus wear? Will the new material resist scratches better than vinyl, that would be good I think.

Nice to see innovation like this.


-------------
Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2022 at 7:50pm
Originally posted by Fatmangolf Fatmangolf wrote:


Harder may mean longer lasting records and perhaps faster stylus wear? Will the new material resist scratches better than vinyl, that would be good I think.

Nice to see innovation like this.

Interesting point you make on harder records, I didn't think of that at the time, It could well be that your stylus will not last as long. If say your stylus life could be half of what it is now in the long run it would be a very expencive record or records to have. It would be very interesting to see what they have to say on this subject


-------------
Reflex M, Solo (both with PSU-1) CuSat50, Lautus, Spatia & Spatia links cables. Ortofon Bronze.


Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2022 at 8:01pm
I have just thought, I wonder it the stylus manufacturers were consulted on this new way of making records. I would hazard a guess "No"

-------------
Reflex M, Solo (both with PSU-1) CuSat50, Lautus, Spatia & Spatia links cables. Ortofon Bronze.


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2022 at 8:16pm
My copy of Jack White's Lazaretto has a number of interesting features on the record. Potentially relevant here, one side is normal shiny plastic and the other is matt, intended to sound like the surface of a 78 rpm disk. When I v-ripped the LP the surface noise spectra differed considerably between the two sides, suggesting different friction perhaps?

-------------
Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2022 at 8:22pm
Originally posted by Fatmangolf Fatmangolf wrote:

My copy of Jack White's Lazaretto has a number of interesting features on the record. Potentially relevant here, one side is normal shiny plastic and the other is matt, intended to sound like the surface of a 78 rpm disk. When I v-ripped the LP the surface noise spectra differed considerably between the two sides, suggesting different friction perhaps?

Does cleaning (wet clean) the record have an affect on the matt finnish, just curious!!


-------------
Reflex M, Solo (both with PSU-1) CuSat50, Lautus, Spatia & Spatia links cables. Ortofon Bronze.


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2022 at 10:17pm
It's a good question Jon. I've cleaned the LP in my ultrasonic RCM and each side looked like it did beforehand.

-------------
Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net