New Members Corner - New member, phono stage frustration

New member, phono stage frustration

Printed From: Graham Slee Hifi System Components
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Forum Name: New Members Corner
Forum Description: Introduce yourself here
URL: https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4766
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Topic: New member, phono stage frustration

Posted By: *RHCP*
Subject: New member, phono stage frustration
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2019 at 8:54pm

Hi,

Phono stage frustration, help appreciated!

So over the last 12 months I’ve dug out all my vinyl and purchased a Rega P3, Exact MM cartridge, Monitor Audio Bronze speakers and an Audiolab 6000A amp.

I’ve been using the inbuilt phono stage of the amp and was reasonably pleased with what I was hearing. A friend of mine then lent me their Rega phono stage (the one that’s retails for about £200; can’t remember the name). After comparing the two I kept the Rega phono plugged in until having to give it back. To my ears the sound was much more appealing.

Needless to say this then caused me to scour the web obsessively for a phono stage within my budget; £450 -£500. After reading a lot of different reviews and various people telling me “you should buy a ....”, “don’t get a .....”, “make sure whatever you get is compatible with your cartridge as it has a particularly output”, I’m genuinely more confused than before I started.

It seems that when I’ve asked for advice relating specifically to phono stages the responses are vast and varied. Naivety on my behalf perhaps.

If it’s not already clear, I’m not an engineer or audiophile, I just like listening to music a lot, mainly vinyl, and want to get the best out of my modest set up by way of a decent phono stage.

Now I do understand that the only way to really judge, if that’s the right word, what I like the sound of is to actually demo a product at home. This is where I’ve found the greatest issue as I’ve got a list of about four different ones I’d like to demo, the GS Era Gold / Reflex being two of the four on my list. The other phono stages on my list don’t seem to be available for a demo service or are not stocked at my local Hi-Fi dealers to demo in store or at home.

By complete accident i stumbled upon this forum and was pleasantly surprised to find that its possible to demo the Era Gold / Reflex I was on the verge of purchasing a phono stage online in haste, phew.

I’ve read some reviews where people have struggled to match a phono stage successfully with the Exact as the output of the Exact is 6.8 - 7.2mV which causes issues for some reason.

So, my question is really (got there in the end), are my Exact cartridge and amp compatible with the Era Gold or Reflex?

Also, I’m basing all this on the assumption that my setup is actually capable of making the most of a decent phono stage and the improved sonics won’t be lost due to the modest nature of what I have.

I just don’t want to waste anyone’s time by requesting a home demo before understanding the facts.

Apologies for the very, very long winded post but I don’t think I really appreciated the complex nature of this new hobby when I got back into vinyl some 12 months ago!

Thanks in advance.

Replies:

Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2019 at 9:15pm

hello and welcome.

The output from your exact falls within the specs stated by Graham so sure this will be fine and whilst I have no experience of the Rega stage I have of the era gold and reflex which are excellent so would recommend you recommend indulging both on the loan scheme at home. I doubt you will be disappointed and sure we are all here to enjoy the music.

Posted By: *RHCP*
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2019 at 9:19pm

Richard,

Many thanks for the reply much appreciated

Posted By: Aussie Mick
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2019 at 4:08am

Welcome from me, too.

I have experience with the Rega Bias and Exact carts, with the Reflex M and the Rega Fono MM. To be quick...

1. The Exact works with the Reflex, no problem.

2. The Fono and the Reflex M sound different.

3. Try the Reflex M at home so you know if you like it.

Cheers and good luck!

Mick.

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Rega RP8 - Apheta 2 - Accession MC Enigma PS -Solo ULDE (Focal Utopia) - PS Audio M700 - Fical Kanta No2

Posted By: *RHCP*
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2019 at 6:04am

Thanks Mick

Posted By: tg [RIP]
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2019 at 7:25am

Another welcome from me,
I was running a modestly priced cartridge on a Rega P2 into a NAD 7255 when I purchased an Era Gold V as my first standalone phono stage.
I never felt that it was wasted money or that my turntable and cartridge were insufficient to allow me to enjoy its benefits.
That said, it also allowed me to enjoy each and every upgrade I did to that table and every cartridge upgrade I made subsequently.
As Mick said, try the Reflex M at home for yourself, I think you will not quickly outgrow it.

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Tony G

Posted By: DeepEnd
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2019 at 5:46pm

It would be nice to get Graham's thoughts on this as some point but I have been aware of an issue with a higher output cartridges and external phono stages due to a friends amp.

My friends amp had a line input sensitivity of 300mV for full output and in small print in the manual was a figure quoted as line in maximum input of >3.0V. This gives a headroom of over 20db on the sensitivity figure which seemed quite reasonable until you worked through the figures.

Cartridge output level was quoted as 6.5mV at "ref" levels (similar to the Rega of the OP) and the gain of the phono stage was 43db (x141.254). As a result the output level at "ref" was at 918mV. This initially seemed good as it meant there was not a huge difference in levels to CD's etc and LP's.

He then tried a tracking test and was quite disappointed that his cartridge distorted badly on even a +12db track and this is where he asked me to get involved. Long story cut short - when the cart/deck and phono stage were plugged into my amp - no distortion at all at +12db, none at +14db but above this, yes, distortion.

The difference was my amp was happy up to about a 5.0V max input (rather than 3.0V in his) and +12db was 3.65V (clipping in his preamp rather than miss-tracking), +14db was 4.6V and 16db was 5.8V and clipped in my pre-amp.

Swapping his 43db phono stage for my 41db phono stage gave a clean signal at +16db in my amp and +12db in his. So his cartridge tracked nicely but could push his preamp (NOT the phono stage as max output was 7.5V) into clipping.

I suppose for most listening it would not be an issue but for some 45rpm and/or "hot cut" tracks it might be.

I presume the 3.0V limit might be a consequence of using 3.3V rails for remote control/switching and I also notice not many newer amps even give the max input figure at all.

Would something like a 35-36db be a better figure for the Rega to clear +16db into 3.0V max inputs?

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Paul

Rega RP8, Audiomods S5, A&R P77/SP, P78+FG2 and Nagaoka MP11Boron +Paratrace.
Musical Fidelity A3.2, Rega RS3

Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2019 at 6:29pm

sure Graham can give you the tech side but if his says 9.2v & 10v you are well inside the phono stage capabilities

Posted By: Lucabeer
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2019 at 7:15pm

I use an Ortofon 2M Bronze/Black which has a similar output level, with the Reflex M. No problems at all.

Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2019 at 10:23am

Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

Most phono stages will provide sufficient headroom for such tests. I don't think you need worry about more headroom in the phono stage.

It would seem that the modern way of providing input switching in integrated amplifiers, is the problem. That being the use of bilateral logic switches.

I looked up the 74HC4051 which I have seen used in one popular integrated amplifier and I guess it will be in use in a few others.

( http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/cd74hc4051-ep.pdf - http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/cd74hc4051-ep.pdf )

Listed amongst its features is "Wide Analog Input Voltage Range of ±5 V Max"

The maximum rms voltage is therefore 3.5V, unless attenuated, but each line input element (in the above case) is via a 10k resistor, which forms a potential divider switch with the elements on or off resistance.

If your phono stage outputs 918mV for a 0dB signal using the 6.5mV output cartridge, then at +12dB it is 4 times that, which is 3.672V rms. Therefore it is being clipped by the integrated amplifier's input switching, albeit softly due to the 10k resistor (if of similar configuration).

Commonly 0dB is output from a record with velocity of 5mV/sec., whether LPs or singles. Therefore the cartridge output of 6.5mV will hold true at 0dB.

The RIAA recording characteristic establishes a maximum recording velocity of 25 cm/sec in the range of 800 to 2500 Hz.

This means the output can rise by a factor of 5, or +14dB. Therefore if the phono stage is outputting 918mV at 0dB, it can rise to 4.95 volts.

However, in the digital domain there is nothing above 0dB - it all appears below 0dB - so >3V covers just about all digital sources and such an integrated amplifier will never suffer this distortion.

It seems obvious that the amplifier designer is not conversant with vinyl reproduction.

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That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps

Posted By: Pwog
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2019 at 3:33pm

I use an Ortofon Bronze 2M and just finished home auditioning the Reflex M. I never heard my system sound better, (until I auditioned the Accession M). if the Accession isn’t in your budget, you will love the Reflex M.

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Paul
Acoustic Research ES-1, Ortofon 2M Bronze, Ayre C-5xemp disc player, Dynaco SCA-35 (updated), Dynaco ST-70 (updated and modified), Revel performa M20, Accession M, CuSat 50 interconnects

Posted By: DeepEnd
Date Posted: 24 Jul 2019 at 2:39pm

I agree this has/may have been missed by some amplifier designers in the pursuit of easily switched inputs, but unless the end user is also aware of the issue then potentially when testing a cartridge the distortion heard might not be the cartridge miss-tracking but the actually the amp clipping.

I don't think my 4.0mV cartridge and 41db gain phono stage are going to be an issue but something like a Rega at 7.2mV and gains above 41db could well be an issue with lots of amps.

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Paul

Rega RP8, Audiomods S5, A&R P77/SP, P78+FG2 and Nagaoka MP11Boron +Paratrace.
Musical Fidelity A3.2, Rega RS3