Printed From: Graham Slee Hifi System Components
Category: Turntable Audio
Forum Name: MM: Moving Magnet | MC: Moving Coil
Forum Description: Learn about the differences between moving magnet and moving coil cartridges here
URL: https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4718 Printed Date: 27 Mar 2026 at 2:55am Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: What's with the bad rap about Grado cartridges?Posted By: Lucabeer
Subject: What's with the bad rap about Grado cartridges?
Date Posted: 03 May 2019 at 5:42pm
I had always avoided trying a Grado cartridge, because of many bad things heard on forums, etc:
- they hum because they are unshielded
- they are lousy trackers
- they use an obsolete design, with simple bonded elliptical styluses, even in middle of the range models
- they exhibit the infamous "Grado dance" because the suspension is undamped
- they have a mellow warm sound which goes well with some genres, but at the expense of detail and speed
Never been one to take anything for granted, I had a friend lend me his Prestige Gold 2 for a while...
So, following my previous report ( https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/2m-black-at440mla-mp500-setting-and-comparison_topic4661.html - https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/2m-black-at440mla-mp500-setting-and-comparison_topic4661.html ), I decided to put it under the same scrutiny on my Technics 1210 Mk2 + Reflex M + Solo Ultra Linear DE... Hoping as usual to be of use to other forum members!
Grado Prestige Gold 2
---------------------------
VTF: 1.6 g
Antiskate: 1.7
VTA: 1 (but take into account that I use a thinner mat than the stock one: those with the 6mm mat will probably want to dial 3)
Surprise, surprise...
- it hums a little bit, yes, when the arm is very near the runout groove. But I can hear it faintly only when there is no music playing, and with the Solo at 4 o'clock position with my rather sensitive (98 db/mW) headphones. I wonder why Grado doesn't shield their cartridges, but to me the hum is so low that it won't be a deal breaker AT ALL
- it is a very nice tracker, at least comparable if not even BETTER than the Ortofon 2M Black/Bronze: I get the "bee" (in both channels) only in the most extreme torture track (300Hz at +18dB), and in all other tests it's flawless
- the resonance tests show some evident oscillation in the horizontal test at around 9 Hz (with even a hint of incoming mistracking), and some oscillation at around 11 Hz vertically. While the oscillation is stronger than with my other cartridges, it remains in a "safe" frequency range so it's not a reason to worry (and with a lighter arm it could even be less a reason to)
- sound is rich, chewy, but not fat or bloated. High frequency detail is there, simply not as glaring or "in your face" as for the example with the Ortofons. To me the sound is somehow reminiscent of the one I get from the Nagaoka MP-500, maybe slightly thicker but not in an unpleasant way at all
- surface noise is quite low, again very satisfied from this point of view too
I must say that I am actually pleasantly surprised by this cartridge which doesn't cost an arm and a leg, and even more pleased to see that my fears were unfounded. Planning to listen to it a few more days before returning it to its legitimate owner: if I didn't already have three cartridges, I might consider adding one to my collection.
Replies: Posted By: patientot
Date Posted: 03 May 2019 at 5:53pm
I think the carts have certain quirks which manifest themselves differently on different turntables and with different systems and different records. So you get a wide range of opinions on them.
I've never heard the current Gold model, but I have heard some of the lower end models from awhile back and wasn't a fan of them. It's possible I didn't hear them under ideal conditions, but objective tests have confirmed what I thought about them.
I think they exist for people that are seeking a particular sound and are willing to deal with or manage the quirks of their design.
RE: the styli, I think it is too bad that they only use bonded ellipticals on the Prestige styli now. Years ago they did offer nicer nude tips on those models. Now, even the XTZ et. al. is a bonded stylus. I got that info straight from the horse's mouth btw. To me personally, it represents a poor value relative to what else is on the market.
And while $260 isn't an enormous sum, I can buy other cart brands/models I like more for the same or even less money, so I don't feel compelled to bother. The fact that my main deck has a tonearm that is a bit too heavy for a good compliance match just puts the nail in the coffin.
Posted By: Lucabeer
Date Posted: 03 May 2019 at 5:58pm
260 dollars? It's cheaper here in Italy: 189 EUR.
I certainly understand that they have quirks, and that's understandable... but again, either the Technics is a crazy turntable that will digest any cartridge, or some of them might be exaggerated.
About the styli, I agree: it seems somehow sloppy (and anti-commercial) not to offer some more refined alternatives which the customers would certainly pay big bucks for. But again, the proof is in the pudding... and so far, I like what I hear from this humble bonded elliptical (and tracking isn't bad either, and that's coming from me who only use Microlines and Shibatas...).
My friend who loaned me his to try swears on Grado and wouldn't use anything else on his Rega because he likes the luscious sound (he actually has one of the better wood body Grados, so that's why he gave my his "backup" Gold to try).
Posted By: patientot
Date Posted: 03 May 2019 at 6:13pm
Yeah, prices are different everywhere. Here in the U.S. we pay higher prices on some things and less on others. I know that many people will buy carts from the UK, EU, or Japan to get better pricing. I've done it before also.
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RE: the Technics arm, I think it is very versatile, moreso than a lot of arms out there. I've also heard that Grados perform even better with the arm when you add the KAB silicone fluid damper.
RE: the luscious sound, I suppose that kind of warmth is what people love about Grado. I would probably enjoy it on some records but find it sluggish and rolled off on others after awhile.
The truth is there is no perfect cartridge and no perfectly flat cartridge, but over time I've gravitated toward more neutral sounding cartridges than less neutral sounding ones. The cart I'm using now is probably the most neutral I've had, though I wouldn't call it perfect by any means. There are other carts that outclass it in stereo separation and detail, for example.
My next step with cartridges will likely be a custom retip job on my Stanton.
Posted By: Lucabeer
Date Posted: 03 May 2019 at 10:59pm
I have tried a few album sides with the Grado...
It's true that it really shines with jazz! Not only jazz with vocals (with some Sinatra it's great), but also pure instrumental (listening to some Gil Evans "Out of the cool", you can feel great rhythm, drive and weighty presence from the bass: I had never felt such a foot-tapping quality in this album like with the Grado). Very realistic and intimate soundstage.
With rock... it depends. With some Beatles ("Magical mystery tour"), it was again very lively and authoritative, with nice slam in the lower registers. With some recent R.E.M., not quite: "Collapse into now" is congested, over-layered and lo-fi, and the Grado makes it seem even busier and unfocused.
With sparse and punchy electronica (Massive Attack, '90s Bowie...), it's OK, but the thumping bass is not as tight as with other more technically proficient cartridges. Powerful and thick, but not completely controlled.
My impression so far is that this Grado does best with music that is not too intricate/produced/congested. A good cartridge with a timbrically interesting signature for natural instruments and for the voice. My impression is that somehow this cartridge has some resonance that is not completely controlled, but which adds decay and richness in a pleasant way. Trombones and picked bass violin are absolutely stellar. Not neutral, but euphonic. Really, it's not a myth that it shines with jazz: it's true. Tomorrow I want to try some Nick Cave.
Posted By: patientot
Date Posted: 03 May 2019 at 11:27pm
Interesting results. I often hear that a Grado on a sympathetic tonearm does very well with things like jazz, classical piano, acoustic folk music, etc.
Those later R.E.M. albums are probably quite compressed I'm guessing. I don't have that one, but I'd guess it could be a challenge for many carts.
Posted By: Lucabeer
Date Posted: 04 May 2019 at 8:34am
patientot wrote:
Those later R.E.M. albums are probably quite compressed I'm guessing. I don't have that one, but I'd guess it could be a challenge for many carts.
In truth, the last two R.E.M. albums sound awful on CD and slightly more tolerable on vinyl (regardless of the cartridge).
Posted By: patientot
Date Posted: 05 May 2019 at 12:19am
Lucabeer wrote:
patientot wrote:
Those later R.E.M. albums are probably quite compressed I'm guessing. I don't have that one, but I'd guess it could be a challenge for many carts.
In truth, the last two R.E.M. albums sound awful on CD and slightly more tolerable on vinyl (regardless of the cartridge).
Yeah, kinda what I figured. I don't have most of the later stuff. I think the latest album I have is New Adventures on CD. I do have Chronic Town and the first 5 albums on old IRS vinyl as well as CD. All those sound pretty nice.
Posted By: Lucabeer
Date Posted: 05 May 2019 at 9:40am
With some recordings, the character of the Grado is particularly evident...
Playing the first album by Dire Straits... Usually it's Mark Knopfler's guitar that grabs my whole attention (well, and Pick Withers' drumming). With the Grado, for the first time John Illsey's bass is so much more prominent: on "Sultans", its springy and bouncy character stands so much more than I am used to.
Interesting, although it takes a while getting used to.
Posted By: Aussie Mick
Date Posted: 05 May 2019 at 11:48am
I’m glad you’re trying it and making up your own mind. So much negativity online! I think that if someone reads something negative they can respond just as negatively, just to be a part of it. They can think that their own opinion is more informed and valuable than anyone else’s!
Excellent to read your thoughts on what you’re hearing, too.
Posted By: Lucabeer
Date Posted: 05 May 2019 at 1:45pm
Sure, that's the whole purpose: to judge with one's ears instead of repeating urban myths.
Now playing Madonna "Ray of light": and again, the cartridge is playing a weird trick. Madonna's voice stands out on a tapestry of pulsating, velvety, inky, throbbing beats. With other cartridges, it's William Orbit's electronic trickery that picks up the stage. Not with the Grado: definitely a more laid-back presentation, more "chill-out", less "spaced-out", bordering on "thick".
I don't know which approach correctly renders the intention of producer and mixer: I suspect that this Grado "interpretation" is NOT faithful at all. But as a change of pace it's very intriguing. And it's very un-CD-like.
Posted By: patientot
Date Posted: 05 May 2019 at 1:59pm
Lucabeer wrote:
Sure, that's the whole purpose: to judge with one's ears instead of repeating urban myths.
Now playing Madonna "Ray of light": and again, the cartridge is playing a weird trick. Madonna's voice stands out on a tapestry of pulsating, velvety, inky, throbbing beats. With other cartridges, it's William Orbit's electronic trickery that picks up the stage. Not with the Grado: definitely a more laid-back presentation, more "chill-out", less "spaced-out", bordering on "thick".
I don't know which approach correctly renders the intention of producer and mixer: I suspect that this Grado "interpretation" is NOT faithful at all. But as a change of pace it's very intriguing. And it's very un-CD-like.
Very interesting again. Not faithful sounds about right. The FR graphs I have seen of Grado cartridges often show a pronounced dip in the upper midrange.
Here is Miller Audio Research's FR vs. Separation graph for the Gold 1. No idea if the current "Gold 2" is similar or completely different.
Posted By: Lucabeer
Date Posted: 05 May 2019 at 10:14pm
Very interesting graphs! Grado is very shady/reserved about publishing technical data, so external measurements come in handy.
One other thing I noticed is that NO WAY the Gold 2 is outputting the stated 5 mV: it definitely sounds much lower than that, I would say more around 2.5/3 mV like the Nagaoka MP-500. I have to turn the volume very high to reach the same level of the AT 440 MLa.
And googling around I see many complaints about this: many people saying that it has a very low output compared to other cartridges stated at the same 5 mV.
And that's why I would really like my Reflex M to have a variable gain (something like 46-48 dB).
Posted By: patientot
Date Posted: 06 May 2019 at 1:15pm
Lucabeer wrote:
Very interesting graphs! Grado is very shady/reserved about publishing technical data, so external measurements come in handy.
One other thing I noticed is that NO WAY the Gold 2 is outputting the stated 5 mV: it definitely sounds much lower than that, I would say more around 2.5/3 mV like the Nagaoka MP-500. I have to turn the volume very high to reach the same level of the AT 440 MLa.
And googling around I see many complaints about this: many people saying that it has a very low output compared to other cartridges stated at the same 5 mV.
And that's why I would really like my Reflex M to have a variable gain (something like 46-48 dB).
RE: the output, I did not know that. I haven't had a Grado in my personal system so I can't comment on that aspect too much but here is what MAR had to say about in their 2013 test of the Gold 1.
Left channel output 1kHz at 5cm/sec was 2.61mV while the right channel was 2.78mV.
Perhaps Grado is calculating the output differently than everyone else but their spec of 5mV would seem to be quite a bit off from this measurement. I have heard that their cartridges use more handmade processes than some of the big companies, so perhaps that plays into it and there is greater variation from batch to batch as well.
RE: gain on the Reflex, I do have a Stanton cartridge that is lower in output than my other cartridges but I have not run into the problem of needing more gain. I do turn the volume up a little more on my integrated amp when using that cartridge, but I can live with this.
Before I had the Reflex I had a different brand/model of phono preamp that had switchable gain as a feature. I did experiment with adding more gain to the Stanton by using a 46dB setting. I found that while this gain setting gave me extra "punch" on some records it also added distortion on others (probably because some records are cut hotter than others) and that overall I preferred the lower gain setting.
------------- SL-1200 MK7 (modified) + Reflex M + PSU-1 used with AT150-40ML, AT VM610 MONO, AT VM95ML, Stanton 680mkII + Ogura, and Shure M35X cartridges.
Posted By: Lucabeer
Date Posted: 06 May 2019 at 5:58pm
Listening now to one of favourite albums, Depeche Mode "Ultra".
It is well known that this album was recorded digitally, but then passed through a valve stage to give it that particular luscious warmth and make it sound not robotic or too electronic.
The Grado Gold gives a weird performance. It somehow fails on the songs which need to be brutal (such as "Barrel of a gun"): the bass is thumping and fat, but not as raw as it should be. Too smoothed out. On the other hand, it shines in the most intimate tracks: "Love thieves" and "Freestate" have a lovely rendition of the guitar, with lot of decay, and a particular warm rendition of the voice.
Posted By: Lucabeer
Date Posted: 06 May 2019 at 8:22pm
... and go figure, but with another Depeche Mode album, "Playing the angel", the cartridge really flies.
Considering how this album sounds abrasive and gritty (on CD it's almost unlistenable, and on SACD and vinyl at least it has a decent dynamic range and no clipping, but still a very raw mix), I never would have said that. The Grado really brings out an extra layer of darkness to this fantastic album. Just listen to that hair raising burst of distorted guitar feedback in "The sinner in me": it's so ominous, even more than usual!
It looks more and more like this cartridge is unpredictable: until you try it with a specific album, you'll never know how it will be. Probably the least consistent cartridge I have ever had the pleasure to try, and thus defnitely not recommended as the ONLY cartridge to have: more as an extra to experiment with.
Posted By: patientot
Date Posted: 06 May 2019 at 8:44pm
Strange results. I would've expected similar results on the two DM albums but the production is really different on each. I never liked Ultra all that much but it has grown on me a lot over the years. My only copy is a CD version.
For PTA, I have the CD and the original UK 2xLP. My vinyl copy is a little rough as I bought it used but the sound is only a little better than the CD IMHO, if at all. I like the music on the album a lot but the recording and mastering are pretty far from "hi-fi". "Raw" as you say is a good descriptor.
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------------- SL-1200 MK7 (modified) + Reflex M + PSU-1 used with AT150-40ML, AT VM610 MONO, AT VM95ML, Stanton 680mkII + Ogura, and Shure M35X cartridges.
Posted By: Lucabeer
Date Posted: 06 May 2019 at 8:50pm
patientot wrote:
Strange results. I would've expected similar results on the two DM albums but the production is really different on each. I never liked Ultra all that much but it has grown on me a lot over the years. My only copy is a CD version.
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It must be said that Ultra is not a great pressing on vinyl. 30 minutes per side is not exactly a recipe for good sound quality.
Posted By: Lucabeer
Date Posted: 11 May 2019 at 1:35pm
Surprise, surprise...
I put the Grado to the test with Muse "Drones", an album with a very "modern" mix (although the double LP pressing is something stellar, in spite of being on red vinyl: one of the most silent and cleanest albums in my collection).
Well, who would have guessed that the Grado could make this album sound so dynamic, with some very appreciated added warmth on the drums and the bass guitar? A bit less CD-like, let me say.
Enormously entertaining and energetic.
Posted By: Lucabeer
Date Posted: 12 May 2019 at 6:18pm
Oh well, after one week my friend has let me keep his Grado Gold (after all he wasn't using it anymore, after the update to the Platinum) in exchange for a bottle of my whiskies.
I'll keep using it with pleasure!
Posted By: patientot
Date Posted: 13 May 2019 at 3:37pm
Lucabeer wrote:
Oh well, after one week my friend has let me keep his Grado Gold (after all he wasn't using it anymore, after the update to the Platinum) in exchange for a bottle of my whiskies.
I'll keep using it with pleasure!
I suppose that's a good way to add another fun cart to your stable.
------------- SL-1200 MK7 (modified) + Reflex M + PSU-1 used with AT150-40ML, AT VM610 MONO, AT VM95ML, Stanton 680mkII + Ogura, and Shure M35X cartridges.
Posted By: RussL
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2019 at 11:36pm
Hi guys - first post. Got back into vinyl several weeks ago after a 40 year absence (digital only between now and then, computer audio in particular). Got the vinyl bug when cleaning up in the basement and rediscovered a (mint) Technics SL-1200Mk.II TT given to me by my son in 2013 but never used.
Immediately took the TT to KAB Electro Acoutics in NJ to have it modded by Kevin (tonearm damper, new thrust pad, new wiring, etc.) including installing a Grado Gold2 cartridge. In the past month I've listened to an assortment of both old, very old and newly purchased LPs. I'm very happy with what i'm hearing.
Not a single tracking problem or any noise issue when the tonearm nears the end of play (my NHTs are fairly efficient) and my fully balanced system is in general dead silent. I listen to the big picture, don't really zone in on any particular area of the sound so I won't comment there (for now).
After a month of listening the upgrade bug has hit (of course) and I'll be posting shortly in the phono stage forum looking to upgrade there. Also, Soundsmith and VPI are local and attend some of our club meetings (hint, hint).😀
Posted By: patientot
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2019 at 3:45pm
RussL wrote:
Hi guys - first post. Got back into vinyl several weeks ago after a 40 year absence (digital only between now and then, computer audio in particular). Got the vinyl bug when cleaning up in the basement and rediscovered a (mint) Technics SL-1200Mk.II TT given to me by my son in 2013 but never used.
Immediately took the TT to KAB Electro Acoutics in NJ to have it modded by Kevin (tonearm damper, new thrust pad, new wiring, etc.) including installing a Grado Gold2 cartridge. In the past month I've listened to an assortment of both old, very old and newly purchased LPs. I'm very happy with what i'm hearing.
Not a single tracking problem or any noise issue when the tonearm nears the end of play (my NHTs are fairly efficient) and my fully balanced system is in general dead silent. I listen to the big picture, don't really zone in on any particular area of the sound so I won't comment there (for now).
After a month of listening the upgrade bug has hit (of course) and I'll be posting shortly in the phono stage forum looking to upgrade there. Also, Soundsmith and VPI are local and attend some of our club meetings (hint, hint).😀
Russ
KAB makes some interesting stuff for the 1200s. The tonearm damper should help with carts that aren't the best trackers or carts that are slightly too compliant for the 1200 arm.
My next TT upgrade will likely be a 1200 MK7 or 1200 GR...hopefully some time in 2020.
The loaner program is the best way to test out a phono stage.
------------- SL-1200 MK7 (modified) + Reflex M + PSU-1 used with AT150-40ML, AT VM610 MONO, AT VM95ML, Stanton 680mkII + Ogura, and Shure M35X cartridges.
Posted By: Lucabeer
Date Posted: 21 Apr 2023 at 8:36am
I finally encountered a weakness in the Grado (apart from its "soft" presentation which is not suited for some kinds of music, but which is a strong point for other kinds).
Yesterday I was playing an original pressing of Frank Sinatra's "My way". It's not warped in the normal sense of the word. You don't see the record's edge doing a wave during playing. But it has a rather uneven thickness on the beginning of side B. Not much, it's just 1-2 mm. With all my other cartridges, I have never noticed it in YEARS when playing this record.
Yesterday, I used the Grado (because it fits Sinatra very well sonically). Oh, my... that minor but rather sharp increase in thickess made the cartridge go crazy, the cantilever was jumping up and down like a pogo stick. That small bump was exciting a resonant frequence that refused to die for several revolutions. I don't have the tonearm damper, but I suspect it wouldn't do much becuase it's meant for horizontal resonance. It still tracked, but it was very very bad to look at, and also audibile with a thumping bass pulsating sound.
One of the quirks of Grado, I guess...
Posted By: Lucabeer
Date Posted: 21 Apr 2023 at 10:02am
I re-tested the resonance: after all, since my initial tests, 100 more hours of use have passed, and the suspension has got looser.
Horizontal
test: the new stylus oscillated at 9 Hz, now it oscillates between 7 and 11 hz, and the oscillation at 9 Hz is very strong.
Vertical test: the resonance peak was at 11 hz, now it seems to have gone higher, around 13-14 Hz.
13-14 Hz starts to be near the critical zone, I guess, which probably explains the audible behaviour I met with the Sinatra record.
Posted By: patientot
Date Posted: 21 Apr 2023 at 2:14pm
Lucabeer wrote:
I re-tested the resonance: after all, since my initial tests, 100 more hours of use have passed, and the suspension has got looser.
Horizontal
test: the new stylus oscillated at 9 Hz, now it oscillates between 7 and 11 hz, and the oscillation at 9 Hz is very strong.
Vertical test: the resonance peak was at 11 hz, now it seems to have gone higher, around 13-14 Hz.
13-14 Hz starts to be near the critical zone, I guess, which probably explains the audible behaviour I met with the Sinatra record.
Are you able to make a short digital recording - directly from the phono stage? At any rate, I still think the KAB damper could be worth trying (I have one), though I can't guarantee it will fix this specific issue with the Sinatra record. In general it should improve the tracking of most cartridges, but particularly those that are rated at 20CU compliance and higher.
------------- SL-1200 MK7 (modified) + Reflex M + PSU-1 used with AT150-40ML, AT VM610 MONO, AT VM95ML, Stanton 680mkII + Ogura, and Shure M35X cartridges.
Posted By: Lucabeer
Date Posted: 21 Apr 2023 at 5:49pm
My PC is a tower workstation, I would need to move it near the turntable. After this long holiday (it's end of WW2 festivities in Italy), I will do it!
Posted By: patientot
Date Posted: 21 Apr 2023 at 6:37pm
Lucabeer wrote:
My PC is a tower workstation, I would need to move it near the turntable. After this long holiday (it's end of WW2 festivities in Italy), I will do it!
Enjoy the holiday. All you need to do is record approximately 1 minute or a little less of ordinary music. Just make the sure the record is flat and well-centered. From there we can look at what the cartridge is doing in software.
------------- SL-1200 MK7 (modified) + Reflex M + PSU-1 used with AT150-40ML, AT VM610 MONO, AT VM95ML, Stanton 680mkII + Ogura, and Shure M35X cartridges.
Posted By: Lucabeer
Date Posted: 21 Apr 2023 at 10:59pm
Curiously the peak is still there, and now that I'm listening carefully I hear the bass pulsation here too... I had never really noticed it! But it seems to me it's less evident than on the Grado, and the cartridge is not visually "dancing"...
Posted By: Lucabeer
Date Posted: 21 Apr 2023 at 11:20pm
Back to the Grado... Let's see how it fares with a perfectly flat record, bought brand new yesterday (Baustelle "Contro il mondo", from the album "Elvis")...
Posted By: Lucabeer
Date Posted: 21 Apr 2023 at 11:49pm
So, ultimately, it seems that the resonant frequency is at 10 Hz anyway... both with the Grado and the AT. 10 Hz is considered to be the "perfect" frequency for cartridge/arm matching, so I shouldn't complain... And it's at 10 Hz both with a slightly warped LP and a flat one.
The only thing that triggered the alarm was seeing the Grado cantilever bobbing up and down with the slightly warped one.
But as I re-checked... It's very audible with the AT too.
Anyway, this exercise confirmed my impression: that the Grado has more high frequencies roll-off! And that also explains its "warmer" sound.
Posted By: patientot
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2023 at 12:10am
I don't think the problem with your Grado is tonearm matching. It's just that particular record is tough on the Grado and Grados have suspensions with less damping than some other brands of cartridges. I'd be curious how the Grado performs with the tonearm damper installed.
------------- SL-1200 MK7 (modified) + Reflex M + PSU-1 used with AT150-40ML, AT VM610 MONO, AT VM95ML, Stanton 680mkII + Ogura, and Shure M35X cartridges.
Posted By: patientot
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2023 at 12:20am
Lucabeer wrote:
So, ultimately, it seems that the resonant frequency is at 10 Hz anyway... both with the Grado and the AT. 10 Hz is considered to be the "perfect" frequency for cartridge/arm matching, so I shouldn't complain... And it's at 10 Hz both with a slightly warped LP and a flat one.
The only thing that triggered the alarm was seeing the Grado cantilever bobbing up and down with the slightly warped one.
But as I re-checked... It's very audible with the AT too.
Anyway, this exercise confirmed my impression: that the Grado has more high frequencies roll-off! And that also explains its "warmer" sound.
Normally we would use an accurate test LP for this kind of comparison, but you can see what your track looks like here. The files are level matched and the Grado file needed to be brought up 1.8dB relative to the AT file. The AT file has +3dB at 10K relative to the Grado. It may be that neither cartridge is really neutral - I know from experience that the AT 4 coil models are difficult to optimize with generic MM loading. My daily driver AT is loaded at 36K + 180pf, for example.
------------- SL-1200 MK7 (modified) + Reflex M + PSU-1 used with AT150-40ML, AT VM610 MONO, AT VM95ML, Stanton 680mkII + Ogura, and Shure M35X cartridges.
Posted By: Lucabeer
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2023 at 7:55am
I was quite surprised to see how huge the infrasonic content is, though, even on a flat record and even if it's inaudible!
Wouldn't that be energy "wasted" for nothing, from a purely physical/electrical point of view?
Is that the reason some use a rumble filter in their amp?
About the loading of the AT... well, I have never had anything to complain about with the standard loading on the Reflex M (47K + 100 pF). Probably my Technics tonearm cables (it was recabled years ago) have a low capacitance. Never heard the excessive brightness some experience, and my hearing is still good up to 18 kHz (recently tested).
From the spectral analysis, the Grado has a surprisingly extended high frequency response (above 20 kHz) for being a simple elliptical. But still, that 3 dB difference in favour of the AT in the highest AUDIBLE frequencies (10 - 16 kHz) shows why I like the Grado with mellow acoustic music, and the AT with rock.
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2023 at 9:14am
Yes I agree that's why there are rumble switches for high pass filters or fixed filters taking off infra-bass below 20 Hz. Otherwise a lot of amp watts are used and woofer cones can dance, especially in ported/reflex cabinets. Personally I'd prefer seeing some cone movement to hearing a steep sloping electronic filter.
Thank you very much for sharing your graphs and insightful analysis.
------------- Jon
Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.
Posted By: patientot
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2023 at 1:37pm
Lucabeer wrote:
I was quite surprised to see how huge the infrasonic content is, though, even on a flat record and even if it's inaudible!
Wouldn't that be energy "wasted" for nothing, from a purely physical/electrical point of view?
Is that the reason some use a rumble filter in their amp?
About the loading of the AT... well, I have never had anything to complain about with the standard loading on the Reflex M (47K + 100 pF). Probably my Technics tonearm cables (it was recabled years ago) have a low capacitance. Never heard the excessive brightness some experience, and my hearing is still good up to 18 kHz (recently tested).
From the spectral analysis, the Grado has a surprisingly extended high frequency response (above 20 kHz) for being a simple elliptical. But still, that 3 dB difference in favour of the AT in the highest AUDIBLE frequencies (10 - 16 kHz) shows why I like the Grado with mellow acoustic music, and the AT with rock.
I think where some people run into issues with LF content is when their turntable is not well isolated and the speakers are not well place, and they are playing records at high enough volume to generate a LF feedback loop that causes nasty distortion or makes the stylus jump. IIRC gross mismatches between the cart and arm (not that common anymore, but possible) can also cause big problems.
I used to use a set of plug-in rumble filters with my phono stages but after getting the Reflex M and reading about Graham's reasoning for not including a rumble filter, I took those filters out of my system and haven't used them for almost 4 years. There is no negative effect that I can discern, at least not at my listening volumes. I should also mention that I listen with my speaker grills on, not off, so I am not obsessing over woofer movement. I think a lot of people are paranoid about damaging their speakers or something with LF content, or causing the amp to "work too hard" or some such. Not an issue on my end. I have never, ever had my amp go into protection mode or get hot or anything like that from not running a rumble filter.
RE: AT carts, I used a CBS test record and software to optimize the FR. Without loading down to 36K using loading plugs, there is too much peaking at the high end. My 1200 (new model) also has RCA jacks and low capacitance cabling. Subjectively it sounds better this way as well, IMHO. Note this is only for the 4 coil models with aluminum cantilevers and the ML stylus. The 2 coil designs (VM95/AT95) can use a generic load of 250pf (total, including cables) and 47K and have a very nice response.
------------- SL-1200 MK7 (modified) + Reflex M + PSU-1 used with AT150-40ML, AT VM610 MONO, AT VM95ML, Stanton 680mkII + Ogura, and Shure M35X cartridges.
Posted By: Mikeh
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2023 at 2:38pm
The spectrum analysis graphs are exactly how I have measured the tonearm resonance and compatibility with different cartridge/headshell combinations. When I first noticed this effect, I had similar thoughts, there must be something wrong, all that 'lost energy'. But no, further research showed this is absolutely normal. Peaking at 10Hz is normally considered a perfect match, the recommendation being 8-12Hz (as I have read). Nothing wrong with this at all.
I can say that I tried reducing the peak with a rumble filter (KAB) or a tonearm damper but have removed both. The rumble filter made no audible difference (to me) and Graham's previous comments about filter effects made me re-think. A tonearm damper can help shift the resonance frequency but not reduce it's amplitude. I have read comments somewhere that many amps are designed to apply low frequency filters so the infrasonic signal is removed before reaching the speakers. Can't say if this is true but might be worth looking into for your system.
------------- Mike
Technics sl1210g with Victor U-2 or Technics EPC-205C mk4 Accession MM, Majestic + Proprius, Solo ULDE Innuos Zen mini mk3 streamer Harbeth P3ESR XD paired with 2x REL t5x
Posted By: Lucabeer
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2023 at 7:52am
From an engineering point of view, adding a low frequencies filter is a big "no" for me. It means introducing a "zero" around 20 Hz (to have an effect on 10 Hz), so it would also have a bad effect (attenuation and phase shift) on audible frequencies up to 100 Hz.
Better survive with the 10 Hz resonance peak!
Posted By: Lucabeer
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2023 at 9:17pm
This cartridge is completely counter-intuitive, and this probably stems from an archaic and unconventional design.
1) it responds very weirdly to antiskating, so that it requires less than theoretically ideal from tests. Do the tracking tests, yes, and then dial 30% less. Otherwise it exhibits weird behaviour with actual music: occasional repeating grooves, and wild oscillations in the lead-in groove (the stylus seems to be erratic in locking in!). 1.4-1.5 on the Technics for me now, no more than that.
2) I was trying to improve its high frequency tracking (not its strong point). What does one do usually to achieve this? Increase VTF, of course, while still remaining in the maker's specified upper limit. WRONG! I upped VTF to 1.75 grams, and while the tracking improvement was negligible, the rest became a mess. Muddy, thick. And that somehow makes sense. What was totally unexpected was that the increase in VTF caused a devilish increase in sibilance of male vocals, to the point of making Sinatra unlistenable. Usually sibilance means that the tracking is too light. The Grado on the other hand becomes sibilant and tracks worse when the VTF is on the heavy side!!! Probably that weird undampened cantilever starts acting like a loaded spring, and it wildly oscillates and sssssssssssibilates when excited under increased tension. Back to 1.58 grams, which was also the value recommended by Len Gregory for his Music Maker (which was based on the Grado Gold)... and it becomes immediately better!
3) It's very sensitive to VTA: even half a mm makes a huge difference, again in terms of air and clarity vs muddiness, and of sibilance. So far it seems that it sounds best horizontal, not tails down or up, not even a tiny bit. What puzzles me is that a dumb simple ellipitical stylus should NOT be so fussy and picky.
Weird, weird cartridge, infuriating at times. And yet the quality of the orchestral rendition has a wonderful coloration and euphonic decay that I find nowhere else.
Posted By: patientot
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2023 at 4:12pm
It's funny you should mention that about the VTF. I encountered the same thing with a Goldring 1042. After increasing the VTF beyond a certain point in the recommended range, there was more audible distortion and sibilance, not less.
I have also seen some lab tests of AT cartridges that show certain types of distortion can increase when the VTF goes too high.
The Grado design is different from other cartridges if you look at the patent drawings. Interesting stuff, but I don't think they're for me personally. FWIW I think Stanton and other brands did the MI thing better. Too bad they're not around anymore and no one has quite picked up the torch on those.
------------- SL-1200 MK7 (modified) + Reflex M + PSU-1 used with AT150-40ML, AT VM610 MONO, AT VM95ML, Stanton 680mkII + Ogura, and Shure M35X cartridges.
Posted By: Lucabeer
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2023 at 5:21pm
Yes, I don't think I will replace the stylus once it has run past its life (it's now at 160 hours): the Microline and Fineline cartridges I already own are much easier to setup, and better with sibilance and IGD.
When it reaches 300 hours, I will send the stylus to Ray (together with the stylus of a Nagaoka MP-500 which has reached 630 hours and starting to show the first vestiges of sibilance and high-frequency "fizz") for the benefit of scientific research!
According to your experience, since we seem to have similar tastes and "scientific" approach: is there another MM cartridge that you would recommend to me, to pair AT VM540ML / 2M Bronze / Nagaoka MP-500?
Posted By: patientot
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2023 at 5:50pm
Lucabeer wrote:
According to your experience, since we seem to have similar tastes and "scientific" approach: is there another MM cartridge that you would recommend to me, to pair AT VM540ML / 2M Bronze / Nagaoka MP-500?
If you already have a 540 or 740, my recommendation would be to make some loading plugs to load the cartridge at 36K.
Other than that I don't have a great recommendation. Unfortunately a lot of the best cartridges or cartridges I might be interested in are no longer in production, and sourcing good styli for them is going to be a chore with many pitfalls.
I am always on the lookout for new models that manufacturers bring out but there is little out there that would meet my very specific requirements unfortunately.
I was kind of hoping that AT would bring out another MM with a boron cantilever but that doesn't seem to be a priority for them. Most of their focus in the last few years seems to be on their MC line.
The also have a patent for a new type (for them) of MM cartridge that came out a few years ago but have not produced the cartridge for retail. I assume they have a working prototype somewhere. I also imagine the cartridge would be very expensive if they were to make it for retail.
------------- SL-1200 MK7 (modified) + Reflex M + PSU-1 used with AT150-40ML, AT VM610 MONO, AT VM95ML, Stanton 680mkII + Ogura, and Shure M35X cartridges.
Posted By: Lucabeer
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2023 at 6:53pm
That's what I thought... And I agree that a ML with boron would be more welcome than the useless SH or SLC versions (not that they seem to be bad, but at that price I don't think they have anything to offer compared to the ML which is a more advanced cut).
I'll stick with what I have, and to my ears the 540 is perfect as it is with the standard loading of the Reflex M: absolutely no need to tinker with it.
Posted By: patientot
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2023 at 7:02pm
Lucabeer wrote:
That's what I thought... And I agree that a ML with boron would be more welcome than the useless SH or SLC versions (not that they seem to be bad, but at that price I don't think they have anything to offer compared to the ML which is a more advanced cut).
I'll stick with what I have, and to my ears the 540 is perfect as it is with the standard loading of the Reflex M: absolutely no need to tinker with it.
They used to offer the ML on boron and the cart had a flatter FR than what you get on AT MM models now. They did have some issues with that model though where the diamond would separate from the cantilever. The diamond + cantilever assembly came from Namiki (now Orbray) and was a "bird beak" mount where the end of the solid boron rod is cut off at an angle and the diamond is glued on directly without drilling the cantilever. AT uses the same type of assembly on its MC models.
The aluminum ML ones are laser drilled and glued, I believe.
SLC comes from a different manufacturer, Ogura I believe. The tip is 6/40um rather than the 3/56um of the ML.
Ogura does offer a 2.5/75um tip, but few manufacturers use it. I know one retipper that was able to buy raw diamonds from Ogura with that spec.
SH can be different sizes depending on where it comes from.
If the 540 works for you at 47K then I would leave it alone.
I used a CBS test record to optimize the loading on my end and 36K took the high frequency down by a significant enough amount to me, as well as sounded better subjectively. Measurement results done by others with a JVC test record show pretty much the same thing. I don't really trust other types of test records for this sort of thing as the frequency sweeps or pink noise tracks are notoriously off.
------------- SL-1200 MK7 (modified) + Reflex M + PSU-1 used with AT150-40ML, AT VM610 MONO, AT VM95ML, Stanton 680mkII + Ogura, and Shure M35X cartridges.
Posted By: Lucabeer
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2023 at 8:57pm
patientot wrote:
[QUOTE=Lucabeer]
They used to offer the ML on boron and the cart had a flatter FR than what you get on AT MM models now.
Yes, the 150MLX, as someone on the SH forums pointed out. Twice the cost of a current VMN40ML replacement, and obviously old stock.
My only experience with Boron is the Nagaoka MP-500 so far, and it's stunning.
Posted By: patientot
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2023 at 9:56pm
Lucabeer wrote:
patientot wrote:
[QUOTE=Lucabeer]
They used to offer the ML on boron and the cart had a flatter FR than what you get on AT MM models now.
Yes, the 150MLX, as someone on the SH forums pointed out. Twice the cost of a current VMN40ML replacement, and obviously old stock.
My only experience with Boron is the Nagaoka MP-500 so far, and it's stunning.
Originally they weren't that expensive, so it's a big markup. NOS can also be risky, particularly if the product is not easy to return.
IIRC the Nagaoka carts use a telescoped cantilever where a big chunk is aluminum. The AT boron ones were different and IIRC should be lower mass overall. The diamonds are about half as fat on the minor radius as what you get with the MP-500.
------------- SL-1200 MK7 (modified) + Reflex M + PSU-1 used with AT150-40ML, AT VM610 MONO, AT VM95ML, Stanton 680mkII + Ogura, and Shure M35X cartridges.
Posted By: Mikeh
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2023 at 9:30am
An alternative to the new Nagaoka or AT mm cartridges would be to try some of the classics from the '70's, when Japenese manufacturers used some incredible technology to advance mms. The Technics EPC-205C mk III and mk IV used hollow boron tube cantilevers to achieve amazing low mass. These can be found s/h and new JICO stylus added to give fabulous results. I also use a JVC Victor U-2e of similar design which was released for quadraphonic frequency response. I found NOS stylii available for the U-2e from Japan so it will last many years. However, a latest purchase of a Decca London Super Gold is just magic. Not the best tracker and a bit of a pig to set up but on good vinyl the MI cartridge is just sounds amazing. Fingers crossed the company taking over repair of Decca cartridges prove reliable as this is worth keeping a long time.
------------- Mike
Technics sl1210g with Victor U-2 or Technics EPC-205C mk4 Accession MM, Majestic + Proprius, Solo ULDE Innuos Zen mini mk3 streamer Harbeth P3ESR XD paired with 2x REL t5x
Posted By: Lucabeer
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2023 at 10:30am
The Decca option has always intrigued me. The change in ownership of the brand is what is making me very wary!
Posted By: Mikeh
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2023 at 10:57am
Lucabeer wrote:
The Decca option has always intrigued me. The change in ownership of the brand is what is making me very wary!
I've seen reports that the company that has taken over London Decca manufacture and maintenance is operating and supporting customers ( https://www.londondecca.com/ - https://www.londondecca.com/ ). I don't have experience and am awaiting response to a request for prices of new cartridges.
------------- Mike
Technics sl1210g with Victor U-2 or Technics EPC-205C mk4 Accession MM, Majestic + Proprius, Solo ULDE Innuos Zen mini mk3 streamer Harbeth P3ESR XD paired with 2x REL t5x
Posted By: Mikeh
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2023 at 7:15pm
Luca, just add, I received a response from London Decca. They say the plan is to have new products available from Jan '24 and pricing to be confirmed. Currently cartridge service and repair is being undertaken.
------------- Mike
Technics sl1210g with Victor U-2 or Technics EPC-205C mk4 Accession MM, Majestic + Proprius, Solo ULDE Innuos Zen mini mk3 streamer Harbeth P3ESR XD paired with 2x REL t5x
Posted By: patientot
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2023 at 9:16pm
I've never used a Decca. My understanding is that they have their own niche. Looking at the design, it's quite different from other cartridges with the super short cantilever and piece of twine holding part of it together. I know they are well regarded in some circles, but don't come cheap either.
------------- SL-1200 MK7 (modified) + Reflex M + PSU-1 used with AT150-40ML, AT VM610 MONO, AT VM95ML, Stanton 680mkII + Ogura, and Shure M35X cartridges.
Posted By: Mikeh
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2023 at 12:59pm
patientot wrote:
I've never used a Decca. My understanding is that they have their own niche. Looking at the design, it's quite different from other cartridges with the super short cantilever and piece of twine holding part of it together. I know they are well regarded in some circles, but don't come cheap either.
David, you are right, the Decca London is a unique design which I believe dates back to the 1940s. Upgrades over the years resulted in the Gold & Super Gold in the 70s still based on the same design but in what appears to be a painted tin case. Subsequent Jubilee and Reference refined the design further. Decca London changed hands but ultimately was taken by an ex employee who continued to use the name London Decca providing service and new models until retirement earlier this year. The business has evidently been handed over to a new stylus expert who currently provides service and plans to manufacture new models.
Pricing of secondhand cartridges varies, I was able to get mine at a very reasonable price, marked as a NOS Gold model it actually proved to be a Super Gold (basically fine line rather than elliptical stylus), new one a box from '70s. It works perfectly and is pretty special. There are many write ups about the 'Decca sound', the cantilever design giving a very vibrant, dynamic response. Nothing is perfect, the sound stage lacks depth, it's not the best tracker and it does not like imperfections but on the right record it really sings.
I wouldn't be without other cartridges but the Decca is something else.
------------- Mike
Technics sl1210g with Victor U-2 or Technics EPC-205C mk4 Accession MM, Majestic + Proprius, Solo ULDE Innuos Zen mini mk3 streamer Harbeth P3ESR XD paired with 2x REL t5x
Posted By: Lucabeer
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2023 at 9:29am
I gave away the Grado Gold 2 at 280 hours. From 120-130 hours onwars, its sibilance on certain records (and only some!) had started driving me crazy. And at 280 hours, it was starting to exhibit bad tracking, in terms of brief crackle on loud passages. I think I am too spoiled by advanced stylus profiles to accept the performance compromises of cheap bonded ellipticals!
Posted By: patientot
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2023 at 10:19pm
Lucabeer wrote:
I gave away the Grado Gold 2 at 280 hours. From 120-130 hours onwars, its sibilance on certain records (and only some!) had started driving me crazy. And at 280 hours, it was starting to exhibit bad tracking, in terms of brief crackle on loud passages. I think I am too spoiled by advanced stylus profiles to accept the performance compromises of cheap bonded ellipticals!
I am with you on that. Here in the U.S. Joe Long modifies/repairs vintage and current Grado cartridges. Often he will carefully remove the diamond only and replace it with a better quality nude diamond. You can see photos of his work if you follow "groovetickler" on Instagram. He repairs all kinds of cartridges and shows a lot of eye-opening stuff.
------------- SL-1200 MK7 (modified) + Reflex M + PSU-1 used with AT150-40ML, AT VM610 MONO, AT VM95ML, Stanton 680mkII + Ogura, and Shure M35X cartridges.
Posted By: Lucabeer
Date Posted: 14 Dec 2023 at 6:30pm
Ray is imaging this 280 hours Grado stylus too!
So far, he says that at 280 hours its wear patches are twice the width of the ones on my Nagaoka MP-500... but which has 630 hours! And that the radius at the tip is already at the limit of scraping the bottom of the groove (which I suspected, since I was noticing increased sibilance and surface noise: turns out my ear are quite good).
And even more surprising, he said that while touted by Grado as an elliptical, it's such a fat one that the contact patches are almost completely round. More akin to a spherical?
Another nail in the coffin for the Grado to me: never, ever, another one on my turntable.
I like the midrange tonality, but all the rest is a mess: tracking, IGD, sibilance, and very short stylus life. 140-150 EUR for a replacement stylus that lasts only so little and with the inherent problems of an elliptical is simply too much, when for 200 EUR you can get a Microline or a super fine line that lasts at least twice (and sounds better in the meanwhile)!
Posted By: Igorevich
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2024 at 12:15pm
I feel the need to "break a lance" for Grado carts!
It is everyone's right to expect sufficient performance without IGD, sibilance and similar issues. And with Prestige series Grado carts one does have to battle with those issues, sometimes. If you can't get rid of those and don't plan on changing your turntable / tonearm, you'll have to sell the Grado. But the difference between those carts in an unfitting environment vs a fitting one, is nothing short of breathtaking. If they don't work for you, don't jump to the conclusion that you now know how they sound, your turntable was just unfitting. There are certainly many other great sounding cartridges around, if a Grado does not fit your turntable. I don't believe there is such thing as "Grado house sound" which is somehow unobtainable with any other technology. Good cartridges are transparent and make the music sound lifelike and I'm sure many different ways can lead to this result. If you hear a "Grado house sound" - you either have one of the cheaper carts and it's compromised, or something is wrong elsewhere.
However, the real sound of a Grado Prestige series cartridge WILL come out after the utmost care has been taken during setup. ALL parameters like offset-angle, overhang, VTF, VTA and antiskate have to be dialed in just perfectly. If you experience excessive sibilance and mistracking, you may need to adjust VTA by lowering the tonearm base. Don't try to compensate for tracking issues by increasing VTF without remorse, because the main reason higher VTF helps is by slightly bending the cantilever, thus achieving the same change in positioning from the stylus point of view as adjusting VTA down! I track my Grado at 1,65g, slightly "tail down" and there is no sibialnce or IGD issue in sight, unless of course the record is second hand and obviously worn, but even then it's not a major issue at all. A simple elliptical stylus will never produce such wondrous results in terms of tracking like say, a MicroLine or similar severe profile, no matter the manufacturer.
While it is true that "standard" Prestige line series styli look more like a spherical under scope, you can easily purchase an 8mz stylus which, viewed under a scope, turns out to be a real elliptical cut, even if not the sharpest out there. This stylus goes for about the same price as a Gold stylus and brings any of the plastic-body Grados to a whole new level of performance.
With a fitting tonearm, highest care taken in setup and an 8mz stylus, a simple Grado Prestige series cartridge will sound pretty close to endgame in all regards. There is little that can challenge it in terms of musicality and expressiveness in the midrange. The bass is deep and tuneful. The soundstage is it's best trait, deep and wide, with a great deal of precision. The only drawback sound-wise - the best-of-the-best cartridges manage just a little bit more air and detail on the very top frequencies, which is noticeable by direct comparison. Once you stop comparing and start listening, this little difference is not noticeable or distracting at all.
When listening to my little Grado cart I forget about all the performance checkboxes and the music takes over, acoustic instruments and voices sound very lifelike which has been confirmed by guests who play music instruments themselves. There is no "Grado house sound" to their cartridges or "Grado dance". These are all issues indicative of either a mismatch in terms of tonearm, bad cartridge setup, or maybe someone expecting too much from, say, a Grado Black (which is the cheapest of them all).
In regards to the hum issues. The coils on a Grado cart are positioned in a way, where they "look down" towards the record, at about the same angle as the cantilever does. You can easily see what I mean by pulling the stylus out from it's chamber and looking inside. This orientation means they will be very sensitive to picking up signals coming from underneath the platter. Maybe more so, than with other orientations.
Shielding the cartridge will inevitably increase it's mass. The compliance of the cartridge as it is, already sits at the higher end of medium with 20cus. The cartridge is already, as it is, picky about tonearms and tends to prefer ones that are light. If weight of the cartridge was to be increased, it's compatibility with modern day tonearms would become even less. So it seems a conscious choice was made: to just expect the turntable manufacturer to shield the motor. Or to position the motor further away from the path of the tonearm over the record. On turntables with well shielded or outboard motors you don't have any hum issues at all.
I'm running a Grado cart on a Technics SL-1200Mk2, obviously the motor is right at the center. So in the runout groove, when I listen with headphones and increase the volume beyond what would be reasonable, I can hear hum. It's inaudible during music playback while the stylus rides further away from the center and the volume is set so that I can enjoy music, not feel pain.
------------- Audio, ergo sum
Posted By: patientot
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2024 at 3:51pm
Igorevich wrote:
Shielding the cartridge will inevitably increase it's mass. The compliance of the cartridge as it is, already sits at the higher end of medium with 20cus. The cartridge is already, as it is, picky about tonearms and tends to prefer ones that are light. If weight of the cartridge was to be increased, it's compatibility with modern day tonearms would become even less. So it seems a conscious choice was made: to just expect the turntable manufacturer to shield the motor. Or to position the motor further away from the path of the tonearm over the record. On turntables with well shielded or outboard motors you don't have any hum issues at all.
I'm running a Grado cart on a Technics SL-1200Mk2, obviously the motor is right at the center. So in the runout groove, when I listen with headphones and increase the volume beyond what would be reasonable, I can hear hum. It's inaudible during music playback while the stylus rides further away from the center and the volume is set so that I can enjoy music, not feel pain.
No interest in rehashing the performance limitations of Grado cartridges.
However, the shielding/mass argument here seems a bit of a reach and not in line with the realities of other cartridge manufacturers.
Most of the major manufacturers of high output cartridges today offer shielded cartridges and those cartridges do not carry excessive weight.
A typical plastic or plastic and metal bodied cartridge will weigh around 6g and be shielded. Many of these are going to be around the same compliance as a Grado when measured.
A Grado Gold weighs 5.5g. If you think 0.5g or so makes a world of difference in tonearm compatibility I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
If Grados are unshielded or poorly shielded it is by intention and has little to do with weight. Their wood bodied carts are often the same compliance as the plastic/metal ones and weigh more, around 9g.
------------- SL-1200 MK7 (modified) + Reflex M + PSU-1 used with AT150-40ML, AT VM610 MONO, AT VM95ML, Stanton 680mkII + Ogura, and Shure M35X cartridges.
Posted By: Igorevich
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2024 at 4:10pm
If the weight of the shielding is irrelevant, something else must have been the reason to not shield the carts. As you say, it is intentional. I was really speculating about what the intention might have been