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PC Power Supply

Printed From: Graham Slee Hifi System Components
Category: And the rest
Forum Name: Power Sources
Forum Description: Where the power comes from has always been a hot topic - even more so now with new World legislation
URL: https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4619
Printed Date: 28 Mar 2024 at 10:31am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: PC Power Supply
Posted By: Ash
Subject: PC Power Supply
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 5:06pm
After 5 years of use, my laptop is almost on its way out. The power connector is loose so the battery doesn't charge very easily, the keyboard is pretty rubbish and the system has little errors/"bugs" that I have to put up with, making it slow and tedious sometimes. Consequently, I am in the market for a new computer and I am probably going to get a desktop PC, either pre-built or perhaps more likely, build one myself as I want to customise every aspect of the system to my own needs and understand in more detail how computers work. I'm leaning towards a gaming PC spec as it will favour audio/video applications. My computer is my main source of audio enjoyment so squeezing the maximum sound performance out of it is a top priority. So on to the basics of a computer build, I need to choose how I am going to power the system as clearly high quality power supplies have huge significance on audio signal fidelity. So is Graham or anyone else here able to recommend a PC PSU that will do music justice? Or Graham, can you build a quality PSU mains PCB if I provide the metal enclosure? Obviously this will power everything in the PC like motherboard, CPU, GPU, SSD and any other peripherals I wish to add. Would such a PSU help to improve the computer audio or am I completely misguided?



Replies:
Posted By: Ernie
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 5:27pm
You just want to supply the audio circuits separately. RPi audio hats are coming with removable links so they can be powered separately from the mother board. Have a look to see if you can get a sound card that can take a separate supply.

There are too many low, odd ball, high current circuits in a PC hence the switch mode supplies.


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There are 10 kinds of people. Those who understand binary and those who don't.


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 6:12pm
Well I would use the Majestic/Enigma as my "soundcard" but its input signal in the digital domain will still be subjected to the computer PSU noise. Just wondering if a GS-style supply would help to remove some noise from USB. I don't believe that the digital domain is immune to noise/interference.


Posted By: Ernie
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 7:50pm
Sorry Ash,
Thought you wanted hi res. Just use an RPi with a digi pro Pi hat. Power the hat from Graham’s new 5V 3A supply and away you go. SPDIF into the Majestic with no computer noise.


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There are 10 kinds of people. Those who understand binary and those who don't.


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 8:15pm
Wow, thanks. Then I assume the only additional thing I need to connect is either a touchscreen or screen via HDMI and mouse via USB in order to interact with operating system and select a track to listen to? What determines what file formats are recognised? RPi CPU will process FLAC or WAV?


Posted By: Ernie
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 8:49pm
Ash,
I use Volumio, but there is Rune and a few others freely available on the net. You control it from your phone via an app no screen, no keyboard or mouse. Headless and more importantly for your listening room fanless.

For about £80 and an hours work you’ll be up and running. See the Hifiberry site. It’s got the parts and the build info you need.


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There are 10 kinds of people. Those who understand binary and those who don't.


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 9:22pm
Thanks. I can only apologise for my embarrassing lack of education when it comes to apps and electronics technology. Dead I'm only 30 as well.

Music is pretty much sorted then. Slee 5V 3A supply into RPi3 into Hifi+ Pro S/PDIF optical into Majestic (Enigma powered) Lautus line-out into Solo ULDE (standard PSU1) into MySphere 3.1. I might even put a Smyth Realizer in the system with Lautus cabling (and custom PSU?) for good measure. I might opt for the RPi touchscreen so the whole thing is tethered together without wireless things. If I were to use it for speakers, wireless phone control would be beneficial indeed.


Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 10:43pm
Ash, over the last 4 years I've used RPis as my streaming devices. I currently use an RPi with 7" touchscreen connected via USB to my Majestic. I used to use a HiFiberry Digi Pro to feed SPDIF to the Majestic, but due to insufficient power from the Pi PSU removed the Digi pro. I find little sonic advantage in the Digi Pro over the direct USB connection. Perhaps when I get Grahams 5V PSU I'll revisit the Digi Pro.
My preferred operating system is MoOde, I've tried Volumio, Rune etc and in my view MoOde offers better sound and features, particularly the touch screen functionality. It also has a very active users forum.  See moodeaudio.org.
The system can be controlled by either the touchscreen or any PC, Android or iOS device.
You will need an accessible storage device for your music files - NAS or even SSD connected to the RPi.
I have 3 RPis one with Touchscreen and SSD directly connected via USB, using Moode the other 2 RPis can access the SSD.
If you've any questions, I'll try to help further.

Ian


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Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it.


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 11:12pm
I remember reading much discussion here about Raspberry Pi about 3-4 years ago. I didn't really understand what it was and switched off mentally when I read "streaming" as I wanted to stick with cables.

How do the RPi devices communicate with each other? Linked by wi-fi, Ethernet cable or Bluetooth? Strange how there was a shortage of power but yes, hopefully Graham's will do the business. Shame it's micro-USB instead of USB for power as you would expect it to heat up more when drawing a lot of current.


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 3:38am
Originally posted by Ash Ash wrote:

Shame it's micro-USB instead of USB for power as you would expect it to heat up more when drawing a lot of current.


Ash, I am in awe at the way modern day physics differs so greatly to that I was brought up with. It is a miracle!

Since we've been mining and bringing all these wonder materials back from the moon we can make absolutely anything perfectly where we were incapable before. Take for instance motor vehicles: they are now able to accomplish Tron manoeuvres - sci-fi come true - especially around roundabouts, but where there'd be a collision before, I am now able to beat the Audi's and Beamers using a smaller engine in my two metric tonne van vehicle than I could ever do before in a 2.5 litre diesel Transit. And as for motorcycles, I am completely awestruck at the way the riders can cheat death these days, where many of my peers met theirs back in the dark ages. This moon material is incredible. One could think there were dark powers at work, but no, it is today's moon technology which puts people like me to shame (apologies for not inserting an emoticon here as I cannot find one which truly expresses my awe).

In other words I agree, it's a load of bare faced bo**ocks!



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That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps


Posted By: Ernie
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 6:28am
So power the hat separately?

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There are 10 kinds of people. Those who understand binary and those who don't.


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 8:11am
which seems to be possible Ernie. These RPi have now really got my attention. A high quality audio "computer" may be cheaper than I thought.


Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 2:17pm
Originally posted by Ernie Ernie wrote:

So power the hat separately?


That's on the to-do list, along with making a decent enclosure for it all. Grahams' 5V PSU will help in powering the DiGi.

Ash, the RPi has Ethernet and WiFi (2.4 and 5 GHz). For loading software to SD cards Ethernet is preferred, otherwise, providing good signal strength can be maintained WiFi works well. Bluetooth is also available should you need it.
Most Hats (add on boards that plug in on top of the Pi) are powered by the Pi, but some Digis and DACs have provision for outboard power supplies.

Ian


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Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it.


Posted By: ServerBaboon
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 4:29pm
Originally posted by BackinBlack BackinBlack wrote:


That's on the to-do list, along with making a decent enclosure for it all. Graham's' 5V PSU will help in powering the DiGi.

Ian

You had any thoughts on where you would get a decent enclosure from?

The only place I have come across at the moment is the Audiophonics site in France, but what with brexit and riots in the streets need to make a decision soon. Confused


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Steve

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Various bits of GSP Kit ..well two so far, unless you count the cables that is.


Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 7:22pm
The Audiophonics case looks good and requires little extra work.
I had considered modifying the plastic PiHut Touchscreen case, which is not so refined but only £15 or perhaps a console style enclosure.
Bearing in mind the amount of work required I think I might go for the Audiophonics after all.
Anything for an easy life these days!

Ian


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Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it.


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 7:24pm
Yes Graham, not sure why the RPi designers thought potentially drawing >2A of current though a tiny micro-USB was a good idea, especially when the peripherals that can be connected to the main board use a larger USB-A and will individually draw less current... I would opt to solder larger connections to the power rails, I think.


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 7:28pm
Regarding case, I'd prefer something metallic for heat dissipation and electromagnetic shielding.

There are some different variants of these Raspberry audio circuits so I will have to draw some comparisons. And WTF at the amplifier circuit without a heatsink??!


Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 8:58pm
Ash, although the micro b usb connectors are only rated at ~2 amps I have had not experienced overheating problems. However there are other ways of delivering power to the Pi, providing you have a good stabilised and regulated supply.
The disadvantage of a metal case is the reduction in the efficacy of the WiFi and bluetooth aerials buit into the board.
When you refer to the amplifiers without heatsink, these are generally digital class D amps which have quite high efficiency, hence no heatsink. I have used both HiFiBerry and iQAudio amp hats in my workshop, for their size and cost they work well.

If you are intent on using your Majestic (or Bitzie) DAC the options are either use USB out from the Pi or one of the many Digi Hats to provide SPDIF. These range from basic convertors to full reclocking with 2 oscillators. Output isolation is not necessary as the Majestic has an input isolation transformer.

Ian

Ian


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Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it.


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 10:05pm
Thanks for all of your information Ian. My objective is the highest sound quality possible from digital audio. I wish to shield from EMI as much as possible (otherwise I'd select a standard desktop PC for music) so I'm fine with selecting a metal case to enclose it. If I need to install updates from the internet, I can use either Ethernet cable or open the case temporarily if I need to use Wifi/Bluetooth effectively. But the only data streaming I'm interested in is via cable. The Majestic has certainly proven its worth, in my mind, so I want it in the system. Delivering it the most unaltered digital signal is my plan. No CD drives, no wifi, no CPU fans, no poor quality power supplies. As for USB vs S/PDIF from RPi, I will have to compare them.


Posted By: Ernie
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 11:19pm
Ash, have you considered just buying a good streamer? You’ve bought yourself some very expensive headphone/ear speakers  and you want to listen to a £80 RPi set up.

By all means try it but I doubt you’ll get the results you desire. I have a Cy##s Stream X Signature and it’s head and shoulders (and knees and toes for that matter) above the Pi (though the app is bloody awful compared to Volumio! Operates like 4 year old put in together).






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There are 10 kinds of people. Those who understand binary and those who don't.


Posted By: Chris Firth
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 11:46pm
Originally posted by Ernie Ernie wrote:

Ash, have you considered just buying a good streamer? You’ve bought yourself some very expensive headphone/ear speakers  and you want to listen to a £80 RPi set up.

By all means try it but I doubt you’ll get the results you desire. I have a Cy##s Stream X Signature and it’s head and shoulders (and knees and toes for that matter) above the Pi (though the app is bloody awful compared to Volumio! Operates like 4 year old put in together).


The main problem with "proper hifi" maker's streaming kit is that you're fine up until the arbitrary point where they decide they're not going to support it any more (usually about the time where they decide it's time for you to buy a new box from them).
And then the bag of nails control system they threw together becomes even more frustrating because it can't keep up with the delivery method changes a service provider has just implemented.
I would suggest giving mainstream brands a very wide berth.

I have been using Squeezebox Touch players for a long time now, and they deliver daily.
I run the server on a RasPi (I use piCorePlayer), and the server accesses my local library (on a NAS), and offboard servers equally well, and sound quality is truly excellent, as are the various ways of controlling the players.

I am very impressed with Orange Squeeze as an Android controller app specifically meant for LMS and Squeezebox, but also capable of controlling Innous Zen products too.



Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2018 at 8:13am
Some "Big Brand" streamers use a Raspberry Pi or similar Single Board Computer as their core processor, many use Arm processors as does the Pi. The software and following decoding hardware (DAC) are really the key to audio quality.
The cost of trying the base RPI are minimal, basic switch mode PSU, 8GB uSD card and RPi 3B+ can be bought for around £50, much less if you use a Pi Zero. just add software, then try it as a USB feed to your Majestic. Then add whatever HAT, PSU case etc you choose.
There's plenty of food for thought on the Moode, Rune or Volumio Forums. iQaudio (made in UK) and HiFiBerry also have interesting ideas.
I imagine you've already looked at all those and more.

It's just my view, but as Chris notes, I think commercial streamers are too limiting. Been there, done that, as they say. I have acouple of streamers that lie idle with their outdated software and limited file type handling.

Ian


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Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it.


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2018 at 7:58pm
I would rather build my own computer (whatever form it may take) than buy a pre-built computer or streamer. Cost is ultimately meaningless, it's mainly marketing and consumer psychology. I'm not particularly intelligent but I do have the viewpoint of a sensible engineer and have an eye for small details. I think the RPi into Graham Slee electronics will do the MySphere 3.1 justice. It sounds superb straight out of my Sony Hi-Res Walkman playing FLAC and the FM Radio is excellent too, especially when the transmission quality is high.


Posted By: cypsela
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2018 at 9:55pm
Originally posted by BackinBlack BackinBlack wrote:

Originally posted by Ernie Ernie wrote:

So power the hat separately?


That's on the to-do list, along with making a decent enclosure for it all. Grahams' 5V PSU will help in powering the DiGi.

Ash, the RPi has Ethernet and WiFi (2.4 and 5 GHz). For loading software to SD cards Ethernet is preferred, otherwise, providing good signal strength can be maintained WiFi works well. Bluetooth is also available should you need it.
Most Hats (add on boards that plug in on top of the Pi) are powered by the Pi, but some Digis and DACs have provision for outboard power supplies.

Ian
Hats off to Ian for taking the trouble to explain what a hat was.
As a interested follower of the forum ,the use of abbreviations can prove frustrating to non technical members like myself.
Might others consider following his lead?


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David


Posted By: Ernie
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2018 at 8:33pm
Got 3 streamers RPi with digi pro, Sonos Connect and Cyrus Stream X Signature. Not all digital sources are created equal.

Best sound per pound RPi can’t hear any difference with files above CD (44.1khz 16bit) quality though.

Most convenient Sonos, even Stevens sound wise to the RPi and been running since 2008 and still going strong with regular updates from Sonos. No sign of support ending so I feel it was a great buy. Downside Sonos doesn’t play past 48khz though this isn’t a problem with CD rips and Tidal. Sounds better since I discovered that you need to set the volume to max and fixed.

Hands down winner Stream X (with Qobuz and Rips). GUI is shocking but the sound... like going from £200 amp with built in MM stage to an Accension and Proprius amps.

I know which one I’d be using (or at least auditioning) with +£3k head ear speaker phones. Just saying.






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There are 10 kinds of people. Those who understand binary and those who don't.


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2018 at 8:51pm
I will do plenty of research before making any purchases. Thanks for all of your advice. Smile


Posted By: DeadWax
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2018 at 9:36pm
Originally posted by Ernie Ernie wrote:

Most convenient Sonos, even Stevens sound wise to the RPi and been running since 2008 and still going strong with regular updates from Sonos. No sign of support ending so I feel it was a great buy. Downside Sonos doesn’t play past 48khz though this isn’t a problem with CD rips and Tidal. Sounds better since I discovered that you need to set the volume to max and fixed.

 
100% agree with what you say ref Sonos - used it as a streamer since 2012 and it really is rock solid.
What do you mean when you say you discovered that you need to set the volume to max and fixed?



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Andy R
Lincoln, UK


Posted By: Ernie
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2018 at 10:44pm
Hi Deadwax,
Try it, go to settings set the volume to max and set it to fixed.

Think it was Graham talking about digital based attenuation that prompted me to give it a go. To my ears (no assurance of quality) it sounds better into the Majestic using the manual volume pot.


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There are 10 kinds of people. Those who understand binary and those who don't.


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2018 at 3:43pm
I'd agree (as has Chris last time this came up) about max/full digital volume and using the manual volume pot. That said the digital volume is rather handy when you're sitting comfortably...



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Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: Chris Firth
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2018 at 3:54pm
Originally posted by Fatmangolf Fatmangolf wrote:

I'd agree (as has Chris last time this came up) about max/full digital volume and using the manual volume pot. That said the digital volume is rather handy when you're sitting comfortably...



My opinion hasn't changed.
Reducing the bit depth makes things sound flatter than they should.

Thankfully my (analogue) amp has remote control, so I too can remain sitting comfortably.
In my book all amplifiers should have RC!
Don't need it to switch inputs, although it's nice if it can.
Just volume up or down is the bare minimum, and a mute button would be the icing on the cake.


Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2018 at 5:10pm
Agree that having had a RC for about 5 years now would mo6 want to give it up without a big reason-more so with vinyl as I can drop the stylus at relatively low volumes and increase on the way back to the listening chair and if not quite right can readily adjust in situ.


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 27 Dec 2018 at 8:23pm
When I originally composed this topic, it wasn't intended to just about a PC PSU; it was supposed to be about a PC power supply and motherboard pairing. I want the best digital signal to go into my Majestic DAC, that is all. RPi  alone or with hat board is an option but I would prefer a PC solution. Have been doing a little research. Only really managed to find one of the most cringeworthy advertisements for a product that I have ever seen. Along with the pretentious air of marketing BS, even has some fine female eye-candy to go with it. Judge for yourself. Marketing is such an insult to even a basic level of intelligence...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3Wbl-RAihs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3Wbl-RAihs



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