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New Turntable

Printed From: Graham Slee Hifi System Components
Category: Turntable Audio
Forum Name: High Fidelity Turntable User
Forum Description: Technical Q&A, hints and tips
URL: https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4514
Printed Date: 20 Apr 2024 at 2:18am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: New Turntable
Posted By: Richardl60
Subject: New Turntable
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2018 at 12:27pm

I went through with my purchase in February of an MRM Source, a substantial 5 point sprung belt drive deck from around 1984 or thereabouts.

 

The solid oak plinth is in good condition, the lid I was horrible a smoked design (from STD I believe) which I upgraded with a custom made clear acrylic lid. Top plate is in reasonable condition but may try and clean it at some stage.

 

The deck is a little heavier than my 17kg Luxman; the gold plated solid brass platter I think is 7.5kg on its own.

 

Initially having installed my new Audiomods V I wasn’t blown away by the Source which for whatever reason has taken a little time to settle down sound wise or maybe the rest of my system was off the pace (which has happened from time to time).

 

The Luxman did some things very well, piece of cake to use, instant start up, looked great and some material sounds great, particularly certain vocals and some bass drums and similar worked really well.  There was a feeling that there was something missing and a certain colouration in mid bass and some midband areas albeit improved some years ago with the achromat replacing the OE rubber mat.  Given the deck sits around 2 feet from a bass driver this could of course be feedback of some description despite best efforts to isolate.

 

After some weeks listening to the Source, the Luxman went to another lucky new owner (sadly in many ways).

 

What does the Source Audiomods V, XX2-2 sound like, well great actually.

 

In use the platter does take time to get up to speed, around 8 seconds so a gentle finger to the platter helps and generally drop the album to a spinning platter - felt mat at the moment and tend place and remove albums whilst spinning.

 

Whilst never an issue the hum even lower than it was before have to be far higher than I would ever list to anything before any hum is noticeable.  Also when the stylus hits the record the drop’is crisper and quieter as is surface noise already low and non-obtrusive, groove roar also lower. Great!

 

The Source I would describe as more analogue, warmer, sweeter with less listening long session fatigue and more natural set against the Luxman which is  perhaps more digital (CD) in sound.

 

The naturalness comes out in all areas.  Bass is more weighty, more textured and a lot better on sustained notes which remain clean and uncoloured with power but without being the slightest bit boomy which you can feel as well as hear. 

 

Mid-band is again very natural and seamlessly knitted with the higher and lower frequencies.  Vocals are crisp and well separated but again with texture and retains the rawness when there (e.g John Foggarty) and cleaned up George Ezras vocals on his first album which never sounded right (vinyl or CD).

 

Higher frequency again mirror the comments already made, cymbals shimmer without being glassy in any way.

 

It was noticeable that when winding the volume up the sound doesn’t change in nature at all it just gets louder and scale increases as you should expect; another key feature is the huge scale and size on the Source without becoming ruffled and never sounds loud as such.  Those few recordings when the artist knocks the mic are less noticeable too/more controlled.

 

Dynamics and scale are improved and apparent peaks in the mid bass and mid band appear to have been eliminated and sounds as if there is no upper ceiling for peaks and in reality less hi-fi and perhaps whilst less obvious certainly more satisfying long term.  Low level detail is enhanced and seems more integrated and one final observation is that differences between recordings and presentation are more obvious, not in a bad way but seems to carry less sonic signature of its own. 

 

By comparison the Luxman was lighter and more forward in presentation and in some ways liken the differences between a normal album vs an Analogue Productions one.  The Luxman sounds a little more digital whilst the Source more analogue, being warmer, smoother, sweeter etc.  I hadn’t taken to my trial of a few Analogue Production albums that much but these do now sound really good, quiet, controlled, dynamic, detailed but natural.

 

Whilst all of my cables are solid silver and a number of my plugs are silver plated I would go on to say that perhaps the resultant sound now carries the best aspects of copper set against the previous presentation of the worst (pre-burn in) aspects of silver (plated copper in particular), i.e. did sound a little detached, thin and forward (i.e. on the Luxman) whereas now everything is gelling together as it does on a well-engineered and burned in Solid Silver cables.

 

Is the Source perfect?  No nothing is.  It was always my intention to migrate to an Orbe SE but that idea is shelved permanently though are a few tweaks still to look at: platter mat, VTA and loading.  I would also like to upgrade the 24v power supply, this is a basic supply and there were two beefier supplies available and I think I have a spec for one of these and have now started research in to having one custom made.  The beefier supplies are said to enhance soundstage and power...will have to see on that.

 

I am not looking to step directly in to the direct vs belt drive as in my opinion; it is likely to be down to how well executed they are, in this case very well.  Reading some on-line comments back from when first launched The Source was said to muller another well-known Scottish turntable and compare well with bass performance of the top end Technics at the time, which considering it was c£800 new 35 years ago and apparently losing money at that price too should not be too surprising.

 

I will try and post a couple pictures for anyone interested.




Replies:
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2018 at 4:12pm
That looks an interesting purchase, Richard! Some pics'd be nice Wink.

This isn't something I'd ever really noticed at the time - pictures I've seen on t'web have a kind of "fluted plinth" -  bit like a piece of chippendale (the furniture, not the, er, entertainment guys!).

If I'd have had the spare cash I'd have taken that Luxman off you in a flash, though . . .  ErmmCry


-------------
Bob

Majestic DAC/pre-amp
Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V
Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50
2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links


Posted By: Drewan77
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2018 at 6:10pm
Congratulations Richard - a good write up too.

You say you are considering a better 24v power supply - it may be an 'off-the-wall' suggestion but why not give John C a call - he adapted me a 24v AC version of the PSU1 to run one of my turntables & it works perfectly, replacing the fairly basic original wall wort.


-------------
Older than I once was, younger than I'll be
.............................
Andrew


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2018 at 9:40pm
Must admit my ignorance but sounds very impressive from what you've written and the info at VE.



-------------
Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 02 Jun 2018 at 4:16pm
thanks, from a January post Graham advised he didnt think he could help and appeared a a little sceptical over the wisdom of going for the Source.  I am awaiting an electrical test meter I have ordered and will confirm the voltage/current form my power supply, and that of my brothers original more substantial one before looking at other options.

Good thought anyway I am sure I will end up with something of an upgrade 
.q


Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2018 at 5:03pm


Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2018 at 5:04pm


Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2018 at 5:05pm


Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2018 at 5:05pm


Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2018 at 5:06pm
That's VERY nice, Richard! Thanks for posting the pictures.

-------------
Bob

Majestic DAC/pre-amp
Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V
Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50
2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2018 at 10:05pm
Lovely photos and the new deck looks great as does your Audiomods series V tonearm. I can see now why people select the gold accents, very nice.



-------------
Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: RichW
Date Posted: 05 Jun 2018 at 9:28am
Stunning looking deck Thumbs Up

-------------
Majestic/Enigma, Accession MM & MC.


Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2018 at 5:43pm

Turning to the question of platter mats I have been experimenting over the last week with 5 options.

My Source comes equipped with a 1.5mm felt mat, sitting on the substantial brass platter.  Having a 5mm FunkFirm Achromat in stock as used previously, I have tried the following; Origin Live (1mm), Achromat 3mm, Oyaide 5mm my old 5mm Achromat.  My Audiomods enabled easy adjustment to VTA for all but the Oyaide and 5mm Achromat.
 
The OL was nice to look atl, soft and flexible.  Soundwise was noticeably more forward and did project vocals and midband (and the only mat to make a noticeable increase in surface noise).  Possibly more punchy & power in the bass but generally a lighter balance and appeared s little more dynamic in some ways.  Fine detail may have been greater albeit possibly a feature of the more prominent mid-band.
 
OE Felt mat - softer and warmer with a fuller bass, and whilst in some ways less dynamic seemed more so in other ways suggesting perhaps the OL projected the dynamic aspects but ultimately acted as a limiter to true dynamics which were probably better on the felt?
 
Achromat 3mm - positive first impressions, with seemingly a more open but forward mid-band, though there was a slight mid bass boom/bloom not encountered with any of the other mats.  Possibly imaged better and more punchy?
 
Oyaide BR12 - rather dulled and rolled off lacking sparkle and nothing really to commend it against the others, the first one to reject though am mindful that until I can rework my arm board to raise a few mm this may have been suffering as nearly 2mm lower on VTA than the others.  Bass also seemed a little 'dead' and lacking colour and detail and a bit lifeless.
 
Achromat 5mm - whilst sharing some of the characteristics of the 3mm it sounded quite splashy and detached, strident and aggressive - again the VTA may have had an impact though exactly the opposite of the Oyaide!
 
OL on top of felt mat - I have heard recommended this option, and having tried it this it did pretty much combine the best of the two, though surface noise remained a little higher than the felt alone.
 
Trying the 3mm Achromat again this did provide some benefits but longer term listening did leave me with the view the Achromat was introducing some colouration into midband, masquerading as greater openness? 
 
The 'hard surface' of the Achromat wasn't my preferred route given records tend to put placed on to the rotating platter...then again with the Origin Live/felt mat whilst I don't generally suffer from static, after cleaning a couple of albums with a hand held brush cleaner on the platter, the mat decided to attach to the album when removing from the platter then fell off which got far too close to my stylus for my peace of mind!!
 
Enter Blue Horizon......
Lucky enough to also borrow a Blue Horizon which is a composite cork, rubber, leather combo which whilst I wasn't that keen to depart from the 'black' mat look this was relatively soft and kind to the vinyl at least! 
 
Using only the single layer (1.5mm I think?) this did provide a really well balanced presentation, solid, well defined bass, good imaging and provided vocals with a sweetness not seen with any of the new mats and appeared to build on the best features of the felt mat and didn't take very long to decide this was the route to go down.  By comparison it did show up the OL, Achromat as being coloured in bass, mid, vocal areas and a little 'confused' in the mid range emphasizing sibilance/sense of splashiness; which the Blue Horizon separated and left far more enjoyable and relaxing.  This was also better focused and a more satisfied listen.
 
I suspect that the mats are highly deck/platter dependant and may provide very different results from TT to TT but are a way of tuning the sound, presentation was the most obvious changes and would liken the changes similar but smaller than between similar price point cartridges.  The changes were subtle fa4 more subtle than changing interconnects, speak leads or mains cables but with all but the Blue Horizon would have felt I had been left with a compromise whichever option I had taken.
 
Footnote, whilst awaiting my Blue Horizon, listened to a new remastered 45rpm  'Tales of Mystery & Imagination' (APP) box set (v1976), 45pm twin disc, very clean sounding, ultra quiet pressing (disc1 anyway).  I did buy a S/H first edition version a couple of years ago which was a very good pressing but this new pressing is wonderfully spacious and detailed and appears to have improved clarity, space, fine detail and dynamics...I recall some coarseness to the loudest passages though haven't played my old copy on The Source yet, may well be the remastering and or 45rpm?  I would recommend to any APP fans (Bob?) - the box set also includes 1976 & 87 CD edition, I believe this 'new' version and unreleased material though haven't played them yet.  Disc 2 isn't up to what I would have expected pressing wise, appears visually perfect though side 3 did have quite a lot of grove roar LF bangs (not warped) and on the first track and side 4 'stuck' between tracks 1 & 2 so will be returning this (one hopefully) for a replacement - never come across that before.  Sadly the remastered CD wouldn’t play either on my Leema CD or car CD!
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2018 at 5:51pm
The Source was supplied with 3 power supplies, a basic 24V (which I measured at 18.9v) a 36v which don't intend to use and a value 24v (again measuring at 19.1v).  The valve Power supply apparently was a one off produced for the original designer (or so I believe).
Quick surprised by the results, so much more space and fine detail, I was a little shocked by this (strings, piano etc).  This is sufficient evidence to push me towards having a custom one made as I now have the component values for the original high performance one - just awaiting a schematic then will organise a custom build.
 
 


Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2018 at 6:05pm
...sadly half way through the first side I noticed what appeared to be a slow down in speed not there at the beginning of the side; a quick check suggested it turning at around 42rpm (45); switched back to the basic one which was again 45pm.  Wont be using the valve one again but look forward to my new one when this becomes possible.
 
The basic supply does seem a big step back in sonics but at least the speed is correct!
 


Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2018 at 4:54pm
I decided to pursue a custom made power supply for my Source in the absence of being able to have my valve supply serviced (engineer post operation convalescence) and I am not a great valve fan in any event though will have it serviced if the cost is not too great.
 
The new unit came in a case almost identical to Graham's black cases as found on most of his hardware, so was welcomed as neat, functional and easily located.
 
Before listening to the new slightly higher voltage PSU I checked the speed which was identical to the old 19v supply albeit a tad fast at 33.33.
 
The results were along similar lines to the valve unit (other than the slow-down!) though will be interested to see how this compares when the valve unit is fettled.
 
With the caveat that the new supply is used in a standard wall socket rather than dedicated mains supply/power HUB and with the basic mains cable supplied there was in basic form a significant improvement in several areas, in particular:
 
Low frequencies - more solid, punchy focused and tuneful.  Rhythmically better with greater texture and detail.
 
Mid-upper ranges - Vocals better separated on multi-mixes (e.g. Bee Gees) with greater space and improved fine detail.  More natural throughout the range
 
Soundstage - a lot wider with greater 3D effect in all directions with more space - an improved and more engaging experience.
 
On switch back to the supplied unit, the soundstage rather collapsed in on itself - more than I expected, width quite dramatically.  Bass was a little slower and less interesting the whole sound being in relative terms a little flat and less natural. The only perceived changed in balance was that this now appeared a little 'thinner' albeit this isn't to suggest the new supply was warmer.  One unusual feature I have never encountered before is difficult to describe.  Both in the mid/upper bass and the mid range it appeared that there was now a 'bloom', 'drone', 'hum'  This wasn't actually the case of having a hum but apparently unwanted background mush which had been eradicated not that I had ever been aware of this in use.
 
Back to the new PSU everything was restored and I have no plans to use the original supply any time soon.
 
I will next use an upgraded mains cable fed from my power HUB and will be interested to see what the differences (if any) are.
 
I would be interested to hear of any experiences with Graham's new Power Supply in use with the Accession MM as I certainly would consider upgrading one of my two PSUs if justified.  Jon, any chance of going on the loaner waiting list for the new PSU? 
 
 
 


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2018 at 8:16am
Thanks Richard for explaining the changes you have made to the Source and how they have improved the music. I'll put you in the Enigma loan list.



-------------
Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2018 at 9:57pm

For what should be my final Source upgrade (unless I look to replace the on-board caps at some stage) has now been auditioned.

 

I set about comparing the standard mains lead in to my new Source TT power supply in the wall socket with a spare but well regarded Copper cable as a start point; in to my power block.  I wasn't quite sure what to expect but had it set in my mind that the cable I was trying (or the more budget version) would represent a small but worthwhile improvement at reasonable cost since my PSU is tucked under my rack on the floor and would need maybe 70-80cm lead.

 

My Copper mains (into HUB) was noticeably more open with more body, natural with cleaner vocals.  On switching back to the std cable the sound was thinner, smaller, more forward and there was an increase is surface noise.  Vocals a little veiled/pinched/raw.  Switching between the two on mixed material confirmed the findings though remained a little uneasy that the bass appeared 'too full' which on some material was a step backwards despite the overall improvement, albeit the cable hasn't been used for a couple of years.

 

Ok, so do I try my pure silver mains cable CD player cable which I could not justify spending this on what would be quite a long lead for the TT.  I thought it should highlight any more significant changes and I could always take one or 2 steps down the range between this and the Copper cable.

 

The differences were greater than the changes between the standard cable and my Copper one, which I was very surprised by.  On trying further material my findings over four listening sessions were confirmed.

 

Reading from my notes the copper was undoubtedly fuller, less clean and slower sounding in the bass, vocals less open and slightly strained.  By comparison my Pure Silver lead removed the bass hump/bloom which remained faster, tighter, more controlled and more punchy and dynamic.  Mid and higher up the range the sound was more delicate, and open with more air around the vocals with a greater sense of fine detail, ultimately more natural, enjoyable and tuneful.

 

Now the dilemma.  I could not justify spending several hundred pounds on a quite lengthy cable to sit under my rack, but would feel short changed having heard what the new PSU could achieve with this cable.

 

With Graham's PSU I have one mounted vertically on a very short mains cable (very stiff around 11mm diameter); whilst my new PSU is heavier than Graham's the even thicker gauge cable should still hold the new PSU vertically on a very short run I thought whilst remaining in a good location which is what I have decided to do and have just placed an order.

 

Sitting here writing the more I listen the better it is getting and a sheer pleasure.  I did promise myself I would provide a final cable upgrade to Graham's PSU which I would have thought should provide a bigger level of increase to that than the TT PSU, but for now will await the delivery and enjoy.

 

Perhaps I may look at the Enigma before the other cables when the loan unit arrives...will also be interesting to try Graham's DC lead against my DC upgrade.  If there is a spare DC lead on loan before the Enigma I would be interested to try as a stand-alone (hint Jon!).

 

Alan Parsons now finished now for some Genesis!

 

 
 


Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2018 at 8:01pm
my custom made PSU cable has arrived and provides a good solution to my cable management- this is the same arrangement I have on my GSP PSUs other than shorter and lower spec cable & F8 plug for PSU.  

14mm cable I strong enough to support the PSU.  

Will try and post picture


Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2018 at 8:13pm
as promised 


Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2018 at 3:36pm
My faulty valve supply has been collected from the engineers workshop- it apparently needed a lot of work in addition to the valves so given this exercise was only really to satisfy my curiosity in comparing with my new supply had no inclination to chuck any further money at it given I would never use in in every day use.

Will be making arrangements to move the valve supply on when I can find a suitably large box to pack it in.


Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2018 at 3:38pm
...also had a thought to try this mains lead (or at least the one from my CD player) on my Accession or Elevator -whilst an IEC lead I do have an IEC/f8 converter plug.  Will report back separately.


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2018 at 6:15pm
Thanks Richard.


-------------
Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2023 at 6:24pm
After nearly a year of saving I got my new turntable just after Christmas a Debut Pro and I'm happy with it and it's certainly an up-grade on my old one in sound and quality of build. After talking to a member on another forum or more to the point his brother using his account (in a private Message) he told me the merits of replacing the plastic sub platter with a metal one, He thought it was a better up-grade than replacing the platter with an acrylic one, he also said replacing the cartridge with a better one should be my first up-grade, which I had already done (2M Bronze) He went on to say that his dealer had advised him on doing it and said it was good advice. He had bought his Pro with the matching puck and said it was worth it, but I have a record clamp so I don't need to do this. So after his advice I will be saving for the metal Sub-platter, I'm part of the way there as I didn't spend all my savings on the turntable. One thing I will say about the TT is that the balance gauge for setting the stylus tracking weight that came with it, is crap, I first tried out the TT with the cartridge that came with it and I could not get it to balance, so I turned to my digital scales and set it with that and then went and see if the balance gauge would balance and it didn't.

-------------
Reflex M, Solo (both with PSU-1) CuSat50, Lautus, Spatia & Spatia links cables. Ortofon Bronze.


Posted By: TheScorpionsTale
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2023 at 9:40pm
Originally posted by lfc jon lfc jon wrote:

After nearly a year of saving I got my new turntable just after Christmas a Debut Pro and I'm happy with it and it's certainly an up-grade on my old one in sound and quality of build. After talking to a member on another forum or more to the point his brother using his account (in a private Message) he told me the merits of replacing the plastic sub platter with a metal one, He thought it was a better up-grade than replacing the platter with an acrylic one...


I've not had much time to get to the forum just recently and missed your post Jon, sorry. Very pleased to hear that your new turntable didn't disappoint...and amused to read that the upgrade path has started already Big smile . It's something in our hi-fi psyche, I think. Enjoy!


-------------
Graham

SL1200 II with SME M2-9R and various carts / Revelation M with PSU-1 / Cyrus amp, CD and streamer / Kralk Audio BC30-3 Floorstanders / Bitzie and Lautus USB


Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2023 at 10:04pm
Originally posted by TheScorpionsTale TheScorpionsTale wrote:

Originally posted by lfc jon lfc jon wrote:

After nearly a year of saving I got my new turntable just after Christmas a Debut Pro and I'm happy with it and it's certainly an up-grade on my old one in sound and quality of build. After talking to a member on another forum or more to the point his brother using his account (in a private Message) he told me the merits of replacing the plastic sub platter with a metal one, He thought it was a better up-grade than replacing the platter with an acrylic one...


I've not had much time to get to the forum just recently and missed your post Jon, sorry. Very pleased to hear that your new turntable didn't disappoint...and amused to read that the upgrade path has started already Big smile . It's something in our hi-fi psyche, I think. Enjoy!

I have already started on the upgrade, I have put my 2M Bronze on it and I have just bought a acrylic platter mat, I was going to use the platter from my old turntable (it would fit) but I got a good price for the turntable with said platter. Before I sold it I tried the arcylic platter and did a comparision with platter and platter mat and there was not a lot in it. I was going to spend the money I got for my old TT on the sub-platter but spent most of it on more music. Smile


-------------
Reflex M, Solo (both with PSU-1) CuSat50, Lautus, Spatia & Spatia links cables. Ortofon Bronze.



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