I'm new here, so let my first say up front that I apologize if I'm posting in the wrong forum area, or asking questions that are somehow out of bounds. I'm from the New York area and though we do our best we've also been known as bulls in china shops. I also apologize for the length of what follows. To paraphrase, sorry for the long post; I didn't have time to write a short one.

With that said, let me also say how pleased I am to have happened upon GS products and this community. Lurking in these forums has already taught me much, but certainly no more than a drop in the bucket compared to most in the community here.

A little background - I'm pushing 50, and have a long history as an audio lover that morphed over the years into a love of home theater. As an unintended consequence, my 2-channel listening shrunk nearly to nil, and vinyl long since to absolute zero.

About a year ago however my wife uncovered my old record collection...mostly rock, classic rock, early rap (talking late 70s - early 80s) as well as some crooners, big band, and a little jazz and classical. I decided to set up a 2-channel rig completely separate from my theater to see if the hobby was one to which I would return. I used to spend hours browsing the racks at the Tower Records (RIP) on E4th in NYC, run home with a new album or two, rip open the shrink wrap, and sit for hours just listening to the music. No reading, chores, or anything else. Just listening. Those were the days.

I started modestly, using a pair of Diva Swan 4.1's I had on hand, a new Marantz 8005, and a U-Turn audio TT with Grado Blue1 cart and in-built phono stage. Lo and Behold, not only have I resumed my old listening habits, but, to my delight, I've also started purchasing vinyl again - mostly 180g releases and re-releases of music I 'skipped' during the CD and now streaming eras. My wife thinks it's weird when I sit in the sweet spot and do nothing but listen to music, but ultimately she's supportive.

Of course, the entire experience left me wanting MORE.

I recently upgraded to a pair of KEF Reference 3's and a Pass Labs INT-60. That leaves my poor little U-Turn and its phono stage as my front end. From a cost standpoint, it's certainly the odd man out. I'm not sure if its quality is 'awful' as I've not been able to hear high end vinyl rigs with my speakers and amp.

Which leads me to my current dilemma. Do I get a new TT? A new cart for the existing one? A new phono stage? For the moment, the KEFs and Pass have left me somewhat out of funds, but I don't want to do "nothing" right now.

I've reached out to Bruce (BAK) to borrow an Accession and a Reflex M, so I'll definitely do as much in-home listening to those as I can. [PHENOMENAL lending program - compliments to Graham on that!]

However, I wanted to pick the brains and tap the experiences of those here. I've had set ups recommended to me at different price points, e.g.:

- Planar 6 + Ania MC + Rega Fono MC for about $3k

- VPI Prime Scout + Ortofon 2M Black for about $3k before a phono stage

Others have insisted that my speakers and amp warrant (and would reveal the benefits of) a VPI Prime, or Rega RP8 or 10 with Gyrodec or Orbe.

I'm not sure I want to spend that much on a TT regardless, though, I'm already in for a bit on the other components.

Given all the above - and sorry again for the length - what do you gents and ladies think I ought to do? My inclination is to stay in the MM realm, but could be talked out of it.

And, will my current TT reveal the differences between the Accession and the Reflex? I'd hate not to hear a difference (now) owed to my current rig, but find down the road that there is or would've been one with a better TT.

Anyway, I'm somewhat all over the place. Sorry for that. I'll leave it there and hope for some thoughts.

Best,

Tony

There's nothing wrong with sticking with MMs - and the Accession (as you'll find out) will get the most out of your cartridge and your records. Of the TTs you mention my choice would be the Gyro - having owned one ! Those brass weights spinning round look sooo cool! And it sounds great too. 

I suggest upgrading one component at a time so you can tell what each brings to the party.

I dare say others here will chip in with their ideas and suggestions. Let us know what you think of the Accession and the Reflex M . . . (yes, the loan scheme is a great idea!)

I hope to get the trial units in soon and go from there. If I hear a big difference with my lowly U-Turn I'll get one of the pre-amps.

Alternately I'll look to upgrade the TT itself though I may put that off for budgetary reasons.

I've recently had the Technics 1200G recommended to me and plan on giving it a listen soon...

You mention the 1200G; now THAT would be nice .

And yes, that 1200G looks very interesting the more I look into it. I have a good relationship with a local dealer who has offered me a good deal on the TT and basically anything in the Ortofon line.

I've been interested to read GS's take on MC vs MM, which, if I understand the short of it, is that in a sense MM is 'easier' to make sound great, whereas MC is more subject to poorly done phono stage detraction. 

I wish I could test the 1200G with both an MM and an MC, like the 2M Black and Cadenza Black, and use an Accession and Accession MC respectively.

Unfortunately I'll probably have to make a decision to go one way or another without being able to hear all of that in advance.

As predicted, a quick response. Not as predicted: good news!

"Good question - the built-in preamp is fully bypassable, so the signal will not go through the preamp when it is disengaged."

I've been mighty impressed with the Technics compared to a succession of belt driven turntables used over the years - pitch control, grip & timing of the music is exceptional and the level of depth and clarity in the bass is something to behold! 

Whilst in the USA I've picked up one of the new Grado Prestige 2's to try out - the US price is the 'same' as the UK but in $ so ~30% cheaper! I had a brief listen on a (another forum) members' Technics to check it out & expect this will sound very different to my other MMs - beautiful midrange and a softer, more mellow treble. 

Sad to be leaving family living over there  but looking forward to getting back to my music system for a while. 

That's good news Tony!

Wow that's fantastic info, thank you! Sounds like just what my local dealer has recommended. How would you describe any difference between the Accession and the Reflex M? I know there are many comments in other threads about this in general, but I'm not sure there are any from people using the Technics + Ortofon 2M Black in the front end.

Thanks,

Tony

Yes and my loaner Reflex M should soon be on the way thanks to BAK. Can't wait!

These two phono stages are more similar than different, I have swapped them extensively with several cartridges (inc 2M Black/another table) so I feel confident in my observations: The Accession is even more refined, especially with percussion, fine detail and imaging & for the price difference, if I only had one, it would be the Accession. As with many things in hifi, the differences are subtle but noticeable if you listen back to back.

Slee equipment never imparts anything of its own, to me it seems to remove layers of something as if polishing a lens & the Accession buffs music up to a level I never hear elsewhere. Graham is also fastidious with RF suppression in all his equipment & those of us fortunate enough to have several components in our systems certainly reap the benefits.

I've owned over the years either.
Really looking forward to trying the new SL1200G.

Good shout on the Grado.

When doing equipment comparisons I've found that it's often sins of omission which can be observed after a lengthy period of using a "better" component. (If you've heard this one before, sorry!) - I had a Solo SRGIII before it got upgraded to ULDE and then it only had a plug-top supply. I'd borrowed something (can't remember quite what) and found I had a spare PSU1, so put that on the Solo and didn't think much more about it. On returning the loan item with the PSU1, the plug top supply went back on the Solo and it was like a switch had been flicked - less dynamics, depth and detail. I hadn't previously heard increases in these attributes when putting the PSU1 on it, but it was so obvious when it was taken away. The Solo was still good, but boy it was so much better with the PSU1! 

This cheapo Grado is actually very listenable & has a smooth and full bodied midrange, good bass (but not the tightest) and well balanced, smooth treble, not recessed as I was told to expect (but then the ribbon tweeters on my system are powered by Proprius amps - so no wonder!). I was able to compare the Prestige 2 to a Prestige 1 with various styli and we agreed that the 2 is a rather different animal to the older model which was known for reduced treble. We are going back to the USA at least twice more this year and I may add an 8MZ stylus as I heard this mounted to the same cart on an SL1600 and it was very musical.

Wow. And, oof. That'll be interesting. Well, my ears shall see (hear) I suppose. Thanks for the clarification Graham. And, btw, let me say how wonderful it is to benefit from your participation!

I plan to demo the 1200G shortly - thanks for your further thoughts Andrew. Maybe I can get the dealer to loan me one so I can try it with the Reflex M to get a purer picture of the differences.

To be honest I'm now mostly twisted about my turntable upgrade. Unlike with GS' loaner program, I can't likely get a TT in for trial. Best case I can listen at a dealer's shop, but with their amps, speakers, etc. Not optimal though perhaps better than nothing.

I'm triangulating at the $4k price point give or take. For the moment I'm looking at the VPI Scout but kitted up by Upscale Audio as shown here:

https://www.upscaleaudio.com/collections/turntables/products/vpi-super-prime-scout" rel="nofollow - https://www.upscaleaudio.com/collections/turntables/products/vpi-super-prime-scout

With an appropriate cart, that gets me to the mid-hi $3k's. 

I'm also looking at the Technics 1200G and cart. My local dealer can get my nice discounts on that and any Ortofon cart, so that would come in at $4k or just over.

I'm not a fiddler, more of a set it and forget it guy, which seems to lean 1200G. But, there's also the question of the interaction among the TT's, carts, and phono stages, not to mention my amp and speakers. This is fun, but not simple!

But you need to try and get a demo and some hands on feel to make sure you get the right deck for you.

I think my Technics dealer might let me try his showroom set up at home - it's a 1200G with the Ortofon 2M Black (MM). He already has it set up and is only about 30 minutes from me. He's mostly a home theater shop so he might not even notice it's gone from his showroom :)

The VPI is trickier, but that does seem like a good deal...

 Tony,

Any questions you may have about Technics SL-1200 series turntables can be answered by

Kevin at :

 He does complete repairs and various modifications to all Technics SL-1200 series.

He sells them, too, but only when he can get them as Technics stopped production of them in  2010.

 The SL-1200G has been recently produced as a limited production edition.

Kevin might know more about who has any SL-1200's.

Just another source to check out , if you haven't yet.

Bruce

Sorry Graham,

He is a master in his trade of audio engineering.

I've never heard that Graham, my 2M Black cantilever also runs very low, including the latest stylus I added. Is there a different version?

(by the way, it was mentioned in an earlier posting that the SL-1200G is a limited edition - that was actually the GAE - the G is freely available)

Thank you all so very much for the thoughts and advice. SO wonderful to be a part of this community and learn from you all.

 I'm due to have a listen to the 1200G + 2M Ortofon black this week, at which point I'll try to get my dealer to let me borrow it as I'll also have the Reflex in at that time.

FWIW, my understanding too is that the G is 'the regular model' whereas the GAE is/was the limited edition version (1200 units natch) but I could be wrong. My dealer has a G in stock in addition to his demo but didn't indicate any issues with supply should the stock one sell to another customer.

I'm also trying to be realistic about my approach. I certainly appreciate fine things, but, I'm not much of a tinkerer. I get far more joy out of putting on a record and listening to it than I do from tweaking settings. I'm sure that means I'll be leaving some performance on the table (ha) but if I'm honest it seems that the 1200G may be a better fit for me personally than the VPI. We shall see.

I just received my Reflex M loaner (thanks Bruce/BAK!) and after a few minutes chasing down a buzz (caused by cables touching) I was able to fire things up for a brief listen. It was a true WTF moment. Not Aha! But, WTF. As in: What The F*%$ have I been listening to for all these months?

Enough ink has been spilled in reviews and posts to sink several ships. So, rather than try to describe exactly what I heard in minute detail, hopefully it will suffice to say that the before/after experience was completely transformed. Before, it sounded like I was hearing music come from boxes, whilst sitting in a box. Now, it sounds like I'm before a band, outside. 

I thought the sound before was quite good. I'm not sure I was wrong so much as uninformed. Perhaps this speaks to the limitations of my lowly U-Turn turntable, its built-in phono stage, and Grado Blue 1 cart. Hard to believe the degree of choke it placed on my system (reminder: the rest of which is a Pass Labs INT-60 driving KEF Reference 3's) but it's plain as day.

I only had time to listen to two songs but they're songs I know extremely well as I've listened to the album 1000 times (Graham - I did not perceive any roll off in that 6-7khz range you mentioned, so I guess the built in phono stage was not in series while off). I can't wait for tonight - I have Count Basie Live at the Sands (before Frank), and Sinatra at the Sands both lined up and ready to go. (Only the Basie is the Mofi release unfortunately).

One specific question - when I first plugged everything in, the volume knob on my amp produced a click in the speakers with each volume step (it goes from 0 - 63). It wasn't related to the cable-buzz; in fact it was there for a few minutes after I solved the buzz. After that though, it went away for no reason I can discern and did not return. Was that the Reflex warming up? Something else I should watch out for?

Another aside - the 5dB gain increase over the built-in phono stage did indeed make a meaningful difference in how loud the system now gets.

Am extremely pleased. Only thing to decide now is whether to simply buy a Reflex, borrow an Accession, or buy an Accession straight away...

Difficult to imagine what I'll hear once I replace the turntable itself...

Thanks Graham. I will for sure take my time (certainly the full length of the loaner period) before doing anything. Ideally too I'll have a loaner TT in during the period so I can hear the actual combo. Thanks again to you for putting the loaner program in place - great service. And of course, fantastic products!

I'd like some advice if possible regarding an upgrade decision.

Am I about right or have I got it all wrong? I'd be very interested in your thoughts, thanks.

Andy R

I get a sense that without listening to it, you may always wonder if you should have purchased the Accession - I was loaned the first ever production model by Graham but within a short time I knew that I had to purchase it... & have never regretted that.

My advice is either to await the loaner Accession before making the decision or if you have the budget, just go for it. Next weekend I will be permanently pairing mine with the SL1200G - they deserve each other!

...by the way I also thought this Technics would be a set it & forget it turntable & it basically is apart from a little yellow headlight  on my shoulder with a voice whispering in my ear 'try more cartridges'. I'm weakening.....

Golden rules with selecting a headphone - research a lot of sources, ignore a lot of what you read during the research and finally be aware that more expensive doesn't always mean better sound. £100-£200 is probably as much as needs to be spent.

I own both the Accession & Solo ULDE. 

The Accession is a substantial upgrade over your current phono stage & would allow inputs into both the headphone amp & a speaker based system.

The Solo will still be an upgrade over your current headphone amp, but I expect it to be a less dramatic change.

I recommend you try both on the loan scheme to be sure.

Stay strong! 

Thanks much for the thoughts as always. Going to put as much time in with the Reflex as possible and then try the Accession. Please chime back when you've got the 1200G and Accession paired - I very much look forward to your experience!

Firstly, apologies - I was tired last night when posting and now realise I actually hijacked someone else's thread thinking it was a general thread to discuss upgrades 

Secondly, thanks for the varying responses, especially the ones focusing in on the headphones rather than the other components - quite interesting as I had thought the Sennheisers to be fairly good performers - I'm no expert but to my ears they are certainly an improvement over the Grado SR80 I previously used with this setup (which I never really got on with -sounded tinny and so very uncomfortable).

Finally, this brings me to the quote above from Graham which pretty much confirms my thinking that the further down the output chain the more diminishing return you get from a change as it is only amplifying what came before it. 

"As long as the Clearaudio is good of course" - again I am no expert listener and my ears have taken some hammering over the years, but it certainly seems to sound far better than the Rega RP1 that I had previously!

The additional benefit to changing the phono stage is that I will also appreciate the difference when listening through speakers, though with the current setup this isn't as much of a concern as headphone listening is.

Thanks again folks, Andy R

The Reflex is a winner for sure. Can't wait to try the Accession. And then of course a new TT :)

Unfortunately my dealer won't let me borrow his 1200G floor model. He does have a perfectly reasonable return policy, but I hate to do that.

Imaging has even greater clarity, more 'air' around every instrument & greater solidity within the depth of the soundstage, from the first thing I played that was the most immediate and noticeable change - in my system all music extends to just beyond the width of the speakers but with an extremely deep & holographic soundstage. 

Bass is truly exceptional & layered but I can't really say it is different to the Reflex because this table is a delight with both phono stages, In my own system the Technics' bass is absolutely perfect, regardless of source & with several cartridges I have run so far (but I do use speaker/room correction including acoustic & DSP). I will have to swap the IQ3 over soon!

Percussive instruments also gained additional delicacy which is another signature of the Accession although with the Reflex this doesn't really become apparent until the switch over. There is nothing harsh whatsoever about this combination of cart/TT + either phono. The 2M black was previously a cartridge I found rather clinical on my belt driven tables but with this through both phono stages it is lively, exhilarating and dynamic, with a very sweet top end which seems tonally 'just right' (IMO the Funk Achromat works better in this respect than the Technics mat).

Having lived with an 'el cheapo' Grado Prestige 2 for a few days, the only area where it truly excelled was midrange whereas with the 2M Black (& Roksan Chorus, AT150ANV) the whole presentation is more captivating and it's almost impossible to concentrate on anything else while music is playing. I do like the Grado however.

I'm glad you prompted me to move the Accession to this table Tony, the Reflex still sounds great with the other one & I make a point of using both regularly but my respect for (direct drive &) the SL1200G increases with every play. Superb... & I'm sure there are many other great tables but few at the price I eventually paid.

(....one strange thing that must reflect on the connections in my system, not the phono stages. I use one PSU1 with a mod allowing both to run from it. The Reflex now has the single positive 24v wire but the return did not pick up via the various interconnects until I made a clip connection between one of the RCA exposed negatives on each phono. The Reflex light glowed dull green until I did this but did not play)

Very fantastic and music (ha!) to my ears! I'm very jealous though perhaps will be joining you in the coming weeks. Thanks so much for the impressions and photo - beautiful!

Just wanted to circle back to say I've taken a left turn off Main Street. I was pretty close to pulling the trigger on a Technics 1200g + Ortofon 2M Black MM cart that was offered to me at a nice price.

However, I was also offered a deal I couldn't refuse - a barely used (looks new, maybe has 10 hours on it) Clearaudio set up. It's the Performance DC, Clarify arm, and Concerto V2 MC cart. All for about 2/3 of the MSRP. I simultaneously ordered an Accession MC from this site :)  Prior purchaser of the Performance DC decided to trade up to the Ovation a few days after purchase.

This is a radical departure from my initial plans, but, I love the sound. Frankly I love the sound of both, but, also love a great deal so even though the cost to me for the Clearaudio set up was more than the that for the Technics, it wasn't *that* much more. So here I am. The TT is due to me shortly, while the Accession MC I gather will be some weeks. Now, the way!

Thanks again all for all the help...