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Why Vinyl??

Printed From: Graham Slee Hifi System Components
Category: Music
Forum Name: Music!
Forum Description: Because it's #AllAboutTheMusic
URL: https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4307
Printed Date: 11 May 2021 at 2:22pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Why Vinyl??
Posted By: izafireman
Subject: Why Vinyl??
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2017 at 6:14pm
As the subject line says....Why Vinyl???

I was asked this by a friend who is very technical but I think my explanation was lacking as I am not the best with words and description, so I thought I would throw the question out to all on here. I tried to explain the joys of vinyl but my friend said that surely digital must be better as it is as far as many things are concerned. I would love to let him hear the difference between digital and vinyl but I do not have a CD source anymore, that is not to say a CD source cannot sound good but from what I have heard it means spending somewhat more to get comparable results as vinyl. I shall don my tin hat just in case their is some incoming from CD fans . Also I have another question. a few of my vinyl albums are ''digitally re-mastered''....what exactly is this and would it be inferior to non re-mastered vinyl?

Thanks

Pete



Replies:
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2017 at 7:14pm
Interesting question; they are different for sure but much of the end result will depend on the quality of the sources including ancillaries.

I recall an early demo of Philips CD player at a show when frankly it sounded quite ordinary not unlike fm radio at the time.

I remember a L*nn demo at the time designed to prove even another brand R**a I think was shown to be 'better'.

I enjoy both CD and Vinyl, both very good both having preferences a lot of which is down to source material.

In my experience CD benefits the most from cables (mains and interconnects) and suppose that 'new' my Overall CD system is more expensive than my vinyl front end which may well be a key reason why in a number but not all ways I prefer my CD system. I am mindful that a future proposed arm and deck change is likely to reverse that though in some if not all asepects.


Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2017 at 7:17pm
I don't subscribe to the everything analogue is good and everything digital is bad.

I have had some analogue production presssings recently which are truly excellent pressings though the overall sound is a little overwarm should we say and lacking a little sparkle.

This may be something 'going off' on my vinyl front end which remains unresolved.


Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2017 at 8:09pm
Whilst I stand the be corrected done properly the original tapes are recorded on digital master tapes maybe with some changes/remixes to the originals

This should prevent the age leaving losses in analogue tapes but is likely to result in some changes to the original.


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2017 at 8:47pm
Apparently vinyl can have a better phase integrity than CD/digital but the original recording/mixing/mastering is the main determinant of outcome. Sometimes, the material is mastered better on vinyl and sometimes its mastered better on CD. Both mediums have their flaws.

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Lautus S/PDIF>Majestic>Lautus-R3>2xProprius>MySphere 3.1


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2017 at 7:04am
Digital: depends on how it's filtered.

Vinyl: depends on what's playing it.

Too many people believing there's gold at the end of the rainbow. Wink


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Not simple enough for Google-Bot to understand...


Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2017 at 8:50am
Back to your DJ post is that dance yourself dizzy by liquid GOLD or GOLD by spandau ballet Graham?


Posted By: izafireman
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2017 at 9:13am
Originally posted by Graham Slee Graham Slee wrote:

Digital: depends on how it's filtered.

Vinyl: depends on what's playing it.

Too many people believing there's gold at the end of the rainbow. Wink


I think that's basically how I tried to explain it to my friend but having never listened to a decent CD based system and he never heard a decent vinyl system is was a tad difficult to explain to him. Furthermore confounded by the fact digital in his eyes must be the best and cannot possibly be improved upon by something that was far older. Though I suppose for 99% of the population this would be true and quite rightly , as most have only heard vinyl that was played on a cheap system, discs battered and scratched to hell.


Posted By: suede
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2017 at 12:10pm
I think the phase integrity thing is what I perceive most as differing between the two. If that is what it is at all, but I think we'll mastered and pressed vinyl has much more dramatic dynamism and is just quicker sounding in the turns and sounding more natural therefore. Handling the music without struggle.
Also the depth is somewhat lacking in CD I find, it can be crystal clear and well balanced but it still comes off as less "3d" and much flatter, even when you can tell it's been mastered very well. This is largely remedied with higher sampling rates eg. 24 bit 96 khz, although some people argue CD should technically be sufficient to provide as much depth as vinyl. Then of course I've yet to hear the Majestic.

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Proprius, Reflex M, Solo UL, Bitzie, CuSats & Spatia
---------------------------------
Johan


Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2017 at 1:17pm
Back to the tweaks other than cables I found my Marigio disc improved width substantially on CD and the use of balanced cabkes also brought out the soundstage substantially. Again in my system the revelation was much wider than the era gold and the accession improved further on this. Other tweaks including equipment supports I found improved focus, space etc.

As ever it depends on what is a comparison with cd vs vinyl or other medium. Good source tv is a useful point or reference too.


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2017 at 2:49pm
I tried vinyl a few years ago with mediocre equipment and was really impressed with the dynamic impact, organic bass and pacing of the reproduction.

Not sure what I'd think now if comparing both at their best. I reckon headphone listening would truncate some of the benefits of vinyl; vinyl would shine with speakers as you get the interaural crosstalk.

I remember listening to an album on both vinyl and CD and the bass on the CD was quite flat in comparison to the vinyl, which was explosive. The vinyl had better pace and rhythm, I thought.

I think it's mainly down to how well the recording is mastered for the medium that it's on.

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Lautus S/PDIF>Majestic>Lautus-R3>2xProprius>MySphere 3.1


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2017 at 2:50pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI1_u4Qj8Yc%20" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI1_u4Qj8Yc

This is one of the tracks I compared.

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Lautus S/PDIF>Majestic>Lautus-R3>2xProprius>MySphere 3.1


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2017 at 9:11pm
Unfortunately getting the electronics right in such a way to make as much music as possible sound enjoyable is not a science.

Science is involved, and so is measurement and maths (lots of maths), but there is no set-in-stone formula. Those who say there is are marketing men period.

Those who say they can make discrete circuits better than the op-amp companies are identifiable by their oversized heads.

And even the op-amp companies are economical with the truth - such is marketing.

And those who are fanboyz of a particular op-amp show their inexperience publicly.

Anyone who believes an op-amp is a ready made preamp is an idiot.

Anybody who believes there is audio contained in the bits of an upsampled file needs education.

The truth is that a resistor has capacitance (and maybe some inductance), a capacitor has inductance and resistance, and an inductor has capacitance and resistance. Those who simulate circuits without these parasitics are playing at it.

And printed circuit board foil traces are inductors whatever width or thickness they are, and that includes ground planes!

Digital has to be made into analog for it to be heard by our ears, and it has all the above in its way, just like vinyl. It is also much higher in voltage which may or may not be a virtue. Try putting 2.8 volts from a D - A into a back to back protected op-amp input (answer: fuzz box) etc, etc, etc.



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Not simple enough for Google-Bot to understand...


Posted By: charlesjohny8
Date Posted: 23 Sep 2017 at 5:36am
I have not enough words to satisfy my friend as well.


Posted By: SiE
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2017 at 3:13pm
To be honest, I don't care where my music comes from, so long as I enjoy it! At the mo', some of the very finest and enjoyable content is coming from BBC's R3, via copper wire and thence Bluetooth to my amp & 'speakers. Having said that, there is a very different feel to the overall experience of playing vinyl, which I enjoy. It's that idea of deciding to set aside 80 minutes or so, to listen to music, flipping through the LP covers to decide what to hear, and the slightly 'ritual' aspect to placing the side on the turntable and carefully applying needle to vinyl. Psychologically (at least for me) it's a whole different ball-game to swiping through content on my iTunes, or indeed, perusing the R3 website to decide on what to hear next...


Posted By: Aussie Mick
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2017 at 11:00pm
Does anyone agree with my thought that a really fine vinyl replay system can be had for less money than the same quality of disc spinning replay? If it’s true (mostly so in my experience), then that’s probably a really great answer to the “why vinyl” question.

However, one of my best friends has gone down the path of headphones, a laptop and DAC-headphone amp, and I have to admit sounds pretty great. Can’t do the social thing, though...

Mick.

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Rega RP8 - Apheta 2 - Accession MC Enigma PS -Solo ULDE (Focal Utopia) - Proprius - PMC Twenty5.22


Posted By: SiE
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2017 at 9:56am
Originally posted by Aussie Mick Aussie Mick wrote:

Does anyone agree with my thought that a really fine vinyl replay system can be had for less money than the same quality of disc spinning replay?
Dunno - my vinyl front-end cost me lots more than my CD player... and not just in terms of money. The CD player (once I'd worked out what sort of player suits me) wasn't too dear and is pretty much 'plug and play', whereas I must have spent hundreds of hours putzing around with the various elements of vinyl replay trying to figure out what I want, how I want to get it and, what component does or doesn't work with another...!  Perhaps it's telling that the the turntable I've ended up with is about as plug and play as you can get for vinyl!


Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2017 at 2:51pm
[QUOTE=Aussie Mick]Does anyone agree with my thought that a really fine vinyl replay system can be had for less money than the same quality of disc spinning replay? If it’s true (mostly so in my experience), then that’s probably a really great answer to the “why vinyl” question.

Mick.
 
Fair point Mick. Having totted up the new replacement cost of my Vinyl and CD system they are including cables etc( which have a made big difference especially to CD), they are within 5% of each other, albeit my CD player we SH and nearly new.
 
Whilst enjoying both and is sometimes material dependant, overall if pressed I would suggest my CD is slightly superior but swings and roundabouts a little.  The key point is that I am not aware of any particular improvements I can make to my CD whilst a new arm and TT are both on my future shopping list so fully expect the vinyl horse to ultimately nudge ahead sooner rather than later. 
 
Whilst I was slow to be convinced by CD, enhanced mains and interconnects over recent years certainly liberated the dynamics, power, clarity and naturalness for above the original level to match and in some cases subjectively exceed that I experience from Vinyl.
 
 


Posted By: Aussie Mick
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2017 at 8:53pm
Well, then, is it a case of a fundamentally superior reproduction system with fewer parts? Less stuff to go wrong or diminish the outcome? In other words, an easier engineering solution?
Mick.

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Rega RP8 - Apheta 2 - Accession MC Enigma PS -Solo ULDE (Focal Utopia) - Proprius - PMC Twenty5.22


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2017 at 9:06pm
Vinyl requires a lot of time to set up and customize fully until you get the best sound out of it. But it would seem that it is the excellent phase integrity of vinyl reproduction that gives it such an engaging and bass-full sound (assuming good mixing/mastering). So if you have the space and the money to invest and your listening material consistently features on the vinyl medium, it should be worth it. I personally like the convenience and ease of digital audio more but I still appreciate the strengths of vinyl. Sadly I don't have the space for it and much of the music I like does not feature on vinyl. The work that does feature on vinyl tends to be much more expensive... Luckily for me, Graham Slee produced DACs to bridge almost all of the gap between digital audio and vinyl so I decided to solely invest in "bridging the gap" so I can enhance the enjoyment of whatever I want to listen to.

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Lautus S/PDIF>Majestic>Lautus-R3>2xProprius>MySphere 3.1


Posted By: Aussie Mick
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2017 at 10:01pm
There have been quite a few comments about the time and effort needed to set up a vinyl replay system. I’m very lucky because I love what Rega does and I’ve gone down that path. It’s as plug and play as my CD player. I know plenty like to “cartridge roll”, but once it was set up, I’ve just been music, music, music!

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Rega RP8 - Apheta 2 - Accession MC Enigma PS -Solo ULDE (Focal Utopia) - Proprius - PMC Twenty5.22


Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2017 at 12:27pm
As an inveterate "cartridge roller" I find that one of the main attractions of vinyl replay is that it's hands on, tweakable and more involving than digital replay.  You have to work at keeping your records clean, there's the playback ritual, and the end reward of gloriously sounding music.

I stopped buying CDs some while ago, and all mine are ripped now - mostly played back via a Transporter into the Majestic DAC. Great sound at the tap of a smart phone app! Almost too easy . . .

Setting aside the time for a vinyl session involves making a commitment which somehow makes the listening more enjoyable.


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Bob

Majestic DAC/pre-amp
Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V
Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50
2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links


Posted By: SiE
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2017 at 11:46am
...and another reason I resumed using vinyl is the realisation that several factors are currently combining:  i) I have an increasing interest in orchestral, choral and chamber music in my later years and ii) the charity shops near me (and there are many!) have "classical" LPs in their thousands at silly prices - typically, I'll pay a tenner for 5 LPs - the final piece of the jigsaw was buying a record cleaning machine, which is quite simply the best upgrade anyone can take, after they have set themselves up with a decent vinyl front-end. Looking back, I can't really see how an enthusiast as opposed to a casual listener, can manage a vinyl collection without a cleaning machine, 'specially if they buy second-hand records.

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Simon, Bristol--------------------------------------
Quad ESLs & valves with Mac, Quad CD & SME vinyl sources (model 10 with SME series 3 and rega-tubed arm, sundry cartridges and Gram Amp 2)


Posted By: franklin
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2017 at 12:07pm
It is a phenomenon that vinyl makes some sound you cannot hear on a digital system, on the other hand a digital system makes some sound you cannot hear on a vinyl system too. 

I think it is a good enough reason.







Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2017 at 1:52pm
I think the most significant difference between vinyl and digital is the phase response, which is why the bass and rhythm are so audibly affected.

A wise man once said that if digital audio were judged by its phase response instead of by its frequency response then it probably wouldn't be considered high fidelity.


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Lautus S/PDIF>Majestic>Lautus-R3>2xProprius>MySphere 3.1


Posted By: dillon
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2017 at 12:16am
Which of these formats sounds most like the master tape????

I get me coat.....

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Nottingham Analogue Hyperspace w Space Arm & Dynavector 10x5 HOMC/GSP Revelation M/John Sampson upgraded Meridian 508.24 CDP/Sony 777ES SACD/ProAc Response D18/GSP Solo ULDE/GSP cables and ICs


Posted By: dillon
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2017 at 5:58pm
https://www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend" rel="nofollow - https://www.theverge.com/2015/10/5/9409563/reel-to-reel-tape-retro-audio-trend

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Nottingham Analogue Hyperspace w Space Arm & Dynavector 10x5 HOMC/GSP Revelation M/John Sampson upgraded Meridian 508.24 CDP/Sony 777ES SACD/ProAc Response D18/GSP Solo ULDE/GSP cables and ICs


Posted By: dillon
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2017 at 6:23pm
My take on this never ending debate? Its not the format..its the recording. I am lucky to have three formats - vinyl, Reel to Reel and CD - playing thru decent gear. The audio pleasure zone is equally satisfied from all of them, depending on the actual recording and mastering. I really cannot fathom why people think their preferred format is the "best". It's a redundant line of reasoning based on personal preferences, not reality. I own around 5000 LPs, 1000 CDs, plus tons of high resolution DSD and 24 bit PCM files, so I don't have a format bias.



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Nottingham Analogue Hyperspace w Space Arm & Dynavector 10x5 HOMC/GSP Revelation M/John Sampson upgraded Meridian 508.24 CDP/Sony 777ES SACD/ProAc Response D18/GSP Solo ULDE/GSP cables and ICs


Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2017 at 6:34pm
While not owning one I have been a. Open reel fan for over 40 years. If the R/R is analogue they will deteriorate with playing and age whereas vinyl if properly cared for won't materially.


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2017 at 4:57pm
I've never owned a R2R but imagine the visuals are very pleasing as well as the sound.



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Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: dillon
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2017 at 5:24pm
The 2nd hand market for refurbed R2R has gone mental! Ludicrous prices..and tapes? Hundreds of £££ each! Have an 80s top Tascam high speeds 2 track using 19cm tape Dad left me, phew. Worth stoopid money now. And his tapes. They DO vary from untouchable sound quality to errr rubbish. Like any format. And yes they deteriorate. Its a rich person's game.

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Nottingham Analogue Hyperspace w Space Arm & Dynavector 10x5 HOMC/GSP Revelation M/John Sampson upgraded Meridian 508.24 CDP/Sony 777ES SACD/ProAc Response D18/GSP Solo ULDE/GSP cables and ICs


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2017 at 5:56pm
Not in the same quality category but I used various cassette multitrackers for bands. Lots of maintenance with cleaning and degaussing, checking alignments and watching out for degrading mechanicals like pinch rollers. In that case I was glad to go over to digital for the easy backups, editing, and onboard effects although I still have a couple of the multitrack decks.

In the 1970's and 1980's it was R2R mastertape I admired as real hifi. I am sure it still is provided the setup is spot on and the tapes very good as you noted.



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Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: dillon
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2017 at 6:07pm
Yes Jon...and exactly why I use it less than the other formats. Its a git to maintain. And not much in the way of cheapish blank tapes to record with. Won't sell it tho...family heirlooms I don't sell. Would buy me a Madge and Accession plus bits easy though ..plus an SME V

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Nottingham Analogue Hyperspace w Space Arm & Dynavector 10x5 HOMC/GSP Revelation M/John Sampson upgraded Meridian 508.24 CDP/Sony 777ES SACD/ProAc Response D18/GSP Solo ULDE/GSP cables and ICs


Posted By: Aussie Mick
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2017 at 5:14am
Dillon,
   Agree with you about quality of the mastering, and I think it’s been mentioned in this thread by many people over the journey. My question for you is, do you have any recordings on all formats that are equal?
Mick.

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Rega RP8 - Apheta 2 - Accession MC Enigma PS -Solo ULDE (Focal Utopia) - Proprius - PMC Twenty5.22


Posted By: dillon
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2017 at 2:35pm
Hi Mick mate

Sorry what does that question actually mean? I don't have and don't wish to have multiple copies of the same music! And I don't think I said the formats were equal in terms of specific albums??? They can't be due to a whole shebang of variables. You will find differences in the formats of the same album dependent on who the audience is. Most commercial versions of the CD are mastered for the radio, and those tinny horrid ipoddy buds. Most are crushed and have limited dynamic range. On the other hand, on the high resolution versions, the mastering tends towards audiophiles as a general rule, so much higher dynamic range. The vinyl version can only be compressed and futzed with upto a certain point..it can't be brickwalled. Hence why SACD/DSD files sounds far superior to the commercial CD version released for the mass market.

So, the real competition is mostly between SACD/ DSD vs vinyl.

Off the top of my head, a few examples:

Keane - Hopes and Fears SACD has higher dynamic range and is better sounding than the vinyl version, both superior to awful squashed CD.

Talk Talk - Colour of Spring and following album, the SACD and vinyl are equally great in my view. CD excellent too.

Simple Minds - NGD. Half speed vinyl remaster best version, SACD close, CD meh.

Pink Floyd - DSotM and WYWH. Original Blue Harvest vinyl and remastered SACDs equally good, CDs good.

Cat Stevens - Tea for the Tillerman. 24/96 and vinyl equally good. CD good.

Fleetwood Mac - Rumours. 24/192 best, CD good, original vinyl rubbish!

Beach Boys Analogue Productions entire catalogue remasters - DSD, SACD best Original vinyl meh. CDs vary but only OK.

Kraftwerk - remastered albums. Vinyl and CD sound equally wonderful. Original vinyl only OK. Original CD issues meh.

You get my drift!?? I could be here all nite, and really I don't wanna go down that bonkers Steve Hoffman forum, where the nutcases argue over the tiniest hi hat sound on the different pressings of the vinyl, never mind digital!!!

Composers will argue that digital is heaven sent for Classical music and will not even look at vinyl these days. I only listen to classical on digital myself.

There are some astonishing demo CDs out there which will blow anybody's mind. Having heard master tapes aplenty in my previous life, I would not truly be able to tell you which was which. And they simply demonstrate how good the medium can be. You can't blame the medium for the message this time round y'know?

All being equal, the fact remains there is no theoretical reason for the different formats not to sound equally great. Why they don't is down to evil and stupid record company practices.

And before we get too enamoured of our contemporary vinyl resurgence, let's understand that much of it is sourced from digital masters! Go figure. There is no full analogue path. Only a handful of audiophile labels produce full analogue records these days. And please don't get me started on 180g vinyl issues.

I research the hell out of modern recordings before I buy and stick to the specialist and more caring companies if needed. And just enjoy the bloody music.

Mick, please forgive me as I am rehashing obvious stuff people know already! Just not too sure what the question was meant to ellicit.

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Nottingham Analogue Hyperspace w Space Arm & Dynavector 10x5 HOMC/GSP Revelation M/John Sampson upgraded Meridian 508.24 CDP/Sony 777ES SACD/ProAc Response D18/GSP Solo ULDE/GSP cables and ICs


Posted By: Aussie Mick
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2017 at 4:33am
Hey,
   You answered it beautifully, actually! I meant to ask if you had any albums which were well enough mastered across all formats that you really didn’t have a preference for vinyl/hi-res/CD. Your examples illustrated it well.

I agree that it’s often all about the mastering, not the medium.

I’m with you that there are some stonkingly good CD’s out there.

Yes to researching for the best version, and that just because it says “180gm virgin vinyl” doesn’t mean it’s any good.

The only disagreement I have is about composers. Yes, CD has the advantage of low noise during quiet passages of big orchestral pieces, but I know a few composers (art music, film, etc) who find CD their least favourite, though essential, option. Much preferred is the ability to record and master at the highest possible resolution and then offer the product as a download at that level. Interestingly, while dynamic range is a concern, these people speak more about perceived texture and depth of colour. Can of worms?

Regardless, we seem to be of one mind about most things.
Cheers,
Mick.

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Rega RP8 - Apheta 2 - Accession MC Enigma PS -Solo ULDE (Focal Utopia) - Proprius - PMC Twenty5.22


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2017 at 9:31am
The Preconsonant (phono preamp) article in Elektor (July/August 1978) talks about vinyl's capability of producing +14dB instantaneous peaks, and that "(record) manufacturers estimate that the best S/N ratio possible with a first rate LP pressing is about 56dB (with respect to 0dB = 4cm/s)"

Adding the two together we get (14dB + 56dB) 70dB dynamic range. Dividing that into 6dB chunks we get the number of bits required for digitization: less than 12.

However, we should be aware that analogue sounds can be made out below the noise floor, and maybe up to 20dB below it.

So now we estimate that we have a possible 90dB (the previous 70 plus another 20) and that will require 15 bits.

Binary counting (traditionally) goes by 4 bit words, so we can have 4, 8, 12 or 16. We could truncate at 15 bits but we may as well use them all, and so 16 bit or a 96dB dynamic range would seem to be more than adequate to resolve the same, if not better than, the range of a first rate LP.

The additional bit could be used as "insurance" by transcribing the master's peaks at 6dB below, which I believe the "Fish People" (the record label of Kate Bush) do.

Therefore, providing the electronics involved do not get in the way, vinyl and CD should sound identical.

I often wonder why vinyl pundits who also listen digitally insist that a higher bit rate than CD is necessary.



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Not simple enough for Google-Bot to understand...


Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2017 at 10:18am
[QUOTE=dillon]

And before we get too enamoured of our contemporary vinyl resurgence, let's understand that much of it is sourced from digital masters! Go figure. There is no full analogue path. Only a handful of audiophile labels produce full analogue records these days. And please don't get me started on 180g vinyl issues.

Dillon yes I agree on the mastering/recording being a/the key element.  I only have Vinyl & CD but some CDs are really well recorded they better the vinyl but others not.  Whilst most of my vinyl are originals from 70s/80s I have a few 'new' albums dating back to that era too, many of which are very good pressing with fine sound and dynamics.
I have dabbled with a few 'Analogue Productions' vinyl over recent months and whilst these are exceptionally quiet pressings, their presentation is a little warm and cuddly for me should we say appearing a little lacking in subjective dynamics and rolled off at the HF end/lacking sparkle.  I say this against an original (80s) Alan Parsons Album (Turn of a Friendly card) and CD on another - the results appear common - the common factor being the sound of the AP vinyl and certainly would not wish to demonise Digital as a format as I suspect some do. 
 
Whatever format is used the end result will reflect the source and also the components in the chain to achieve sound.
 
 
 


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2017 at 4:11pm
Agree with the points above about the source material and the mastering. It may be worth noting that vinyl replay brings nice warm 2nd order distortion which makes most music sound nice.



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Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: dillon
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2017 at 9:06am
That's the elephant in the room Jon...us vinyl loaded bods choose to forgoe the fact that vinyl introduces distortion by default. But its a nice kinda pleasant distortion, just like tubes. It imparts vinyl's character mechanically. I dont mind as I am not a total neutrality bod..I don't mind a little colour and bloom, call it what you will. But its not strictly correct. On the other hand, in every format, everything that comes after the studio master tape is then processed in some form or another. We all accept that. Its life.

Graham has given the simplest and best explanation I have yet heard on the equity of the final soundwaves regardless of format. I myself am guilty of celebrating the perceived superiority of higher resolution, despite the mathematics saying otherwise. Perhaps that is to do with my point about superior and more careful mastering for higher resolution media. Rather than technical superiority.

Mick and Richard, I think we agree and I do take on board your valid point about not all composers agreeing digital is superior.

Richard, agreed AP's EQ choices tend towards the warmer side of neutral. Won't suit everyone but right up my street simply cos I abhor shrill high frequencies. Product varies though. QRP, their pressing plant is one of the 2 or 3 best in the world. Optimal is my fave of those.

Oh, the joys of audiofoolism...dont'cha just love it!

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Nottingham Analogue Hyperspace w Space Arm & Dynavector 10x5 HOMC/GSP Revelation M/John Sampson upgraded Meridian 508.24 CDP/Sony 777ES SACD/ProAc Response D18/GSP Solo ULDE/GSP cables and ICs


Posted By: Aussie Mick
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 5:33am
My original reason for wanting good LP replay was that, being a classical music listener, so much of the material I wanted to hear was only available on LP. The subsequent downturn in profit from classical recording and the resulting clamoring through the back catalogues for “new” releases has made much of that material available (yay), but seemingly rushed through the mastering process (boo).
We’ve just returned from holiday in Apollo Bay, where we visited the op-shop and I bought eleven records for $22. Among them was Klemperer conducting the Philharmonia in works of Richard Strauss. It’s a World Record Club is sure from mid 80’s, on the thinnest of vinyl. It’s in pretty good nick, though, obviously well looked after.
No, it’s not a clean and perfect sounding as the CD reissue I own. However, I now know that the CD mastering sucked the life and hall ambience out of the recording and gave it a back-of-the-hall perspective. The LP has the Hall perspective expected of this great orchestra on EMI at that time. It’s just one example of many.

So there’s another answer to the “why vinyl?” question: because I hold lots of confidence that getting hold of an LP pressing of something will end up better than the digital copy I own, due to the choices made by mastering engineers.
Mick,

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Rega RP8 - Apheta 2 - Accession MC Enigma PS -Solo ULDE (Focal Utopia) - Proprius - PMC Twenty5.22


Posted By: dillon
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 10:08am
"So there’s another answer to the “why vinyl?” question: because I hold lots of confidence that getting hold of an LP pressing of something will end up better than the digital copy I own, due to the choices made by mastering engineers."

+1

Sadly, this is the general rule in the pop and rock genres Mick. Invariably, the dynamic range of the vinyl version is much higher than the CD version. Example? The first three Oasis albums on CD are unlistenable, DR numbers of around 3 to 5 in the extreme squashed dreaded red zone. Horrific! Whilst the vinyl has an average DR of 11. Loud music but not digitally brickwalled, and yes listenable even on headphones. Go figure. Iggy Pop's Raw Power has obscene numbers hovering around 3.

Go check out the unofficial DR Database to visually see the atrocities committed on CD v the vinyl.

Low DR equals no peaks and troughs, no space, no silences, no room to breathe, no detail, no hall ambience - just a thick block of solid rubbish. Worse, it means viciously clipped signals and distortion of the waveforms.

So on modern pop and rock recordings since the mid nineties, the Loudness Wars has meant my reaching for the vinyl version 9 times out of 10. Especially with the hit or miss "remasters".

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Nottingham Analogue Hyperspace w Space Arm & Dynavector 10x5 HOMC/GSP Revelation M/John Sampson upgraded Meridian 508.24 CDP/Sony 777ES SACD/ProAc Response D18/GSP Solo ULDE/GSP cables and ICs


Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 11:59am
As said previously it does depend on the recording. I have a number of CDs which are subjectivity a lot more dynamic and have a wider dynamic range than my LP. I have some poor LP pressings from the 70s&80s which the CD (remastered) in some cases are far better. I have few recent LPs the only one I did double up in was last George Ezra both of which appear equally compressed.

I suppose this is one of the reasons for not buying much new music (together with getting older!)


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 2:58pm
Some early CD releases were okay with similar DR to the LP version. I keep an eye for these for ripping. If unavailable I v-rip the LP which sounds better as you have already said.

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Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: dillon
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 3:37pm
Absolutely Jon. The loudness war epidemic didn't truly come along in a big way until the 90s - Oasis' Definitely Maybe on CD is often quoted as year zero. Even though ADC equipment was still in its infancy quality wise, at least the dynamic range was left intact on those CDs. Compare most any original CD by, say the Cocteau Twins, to the remastered CDs and the difference is stark. Technology has improved massively in the chain from back then, so there is no excuse for badly compressed and loudly mastered/remastered CDs. Why is it so difficult to improve the actual sound quality of those less than stellar recordings of the past whilst retaining the dynamics?! It isn't.

I also vinyl rip those albums where the digital DR numbers are bad. If they are available on vinyl at all.

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Nottingham Analogue Hyperspace w Space Arm & Dynavector 10x5 HOMC/GSP Revelation M/John Sampson upgraded Meridian 508.24 CDP/Sony 777ES SACD/ProAc Response D18/GSP Solo ULDE/GSP cables and ICs


Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 4:24pm
I couldn’t agree more Over the compression argument.

So far as remastering goes, whilst I have come across some really good results but ultimately the original master is likely to be a limiting factor?

For example if the original recording was made for example on something like a Teac 3440 4 track reel to reel at 3 3/4 ips this WILL limit the possibilities particularly if tracks were re-recorded individual mics/music lines, vocals etc.

If something isn’t missing at the outset it can’t really be dragged out at a later date simply by remastering.

The original master series on CD does have some really good recordings for their vintage (from the examples I have tried), albeit doobie brothers wasn’t anything special.


Posted By: dillon
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2017 at 11:53pm
Indeed. You have to work with the original tapes and the recording itself may well have been less than stellar to begin with. Rubbish in> Rubbish out. The other big issue is of course the physical long term damage that old tapes suffer from. St some point they become unuseable after repeated runs or environmental damage . DSD was a tool, let's not forget, that Sony chose to archive their master tapes. High bit rate PCM likewise is widely used for the same purpose. So we now have a situation where record companies are relying on these digitized archival quality files to produce records and reissues. And then there is the scenario of companies literally dumping master tapes in bins to make room in their vaults! Leaving only a safety copy, and at times not even that, so using third generation or acetates of vinyl. Arghhh. Stand up RCA who dumped a whole pile of Elvis goodies..lost forever. Tapes get lost or stolen or taped over too. Again, Elvis' singular and historically important Sun tapes are some of the most famous examples. The best surviving sources for 3 or 4 key recordings are now 78RPM transfers of mint original Sun singles!

Unless you have the original multitracks, remixing is out. Mastering can only be done after mixing. Its the final stage tweaking of the album.

Compression has been with us since the beginning in rock, pop n soul. Listen to any 50s singles, Motown, glam rock etc and you find that pumped up, loud jukebox and AM radio sound. But judicious use of compression on individual instruments/parts can be essential for equalisation. Sensible use is the key.

Dare I say there are only a handful of truly great mastering engineers out there? It's such a highly skilled operation!



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Nottingham Analogue Hyperspace w Space Arm & Dynavector 10x5 HOMC/GSP Revelation M/John Sampson upgraded Meridian 508.24 CDP/Sony 777ES SACD/ProAc Response D18/GSP Solo ULDE/GSP cables and ICs


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 27 Dec 2017 at 9:51pm
Nothing lasts forever Dil, entropy applies to signals on recording media like everything else. I agree about the compression being part of the recordings we are used to hearing and the skill involved.



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Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: dillon
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2017 at 1:34pm
Ha! Only you could introduce the Second Law of Thermodynamics into a discussion on vinyl Jon lol. But its so totally appropriate.

The other funky thing is of course, Jon and I have stacks and stacks of punk and post punk lo-fi records. Hifi considerations go out the window for most of those LPs believe me!

Which leaves us with - guess what? Yeah, something called the actual joy of the music, y'know?

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Nottingham Analogue Hyperspace w Space Arm & Dynavector 10x5 HOMC/GSP Revelation M/John Sampson upgraded Meridian 508.24 CDP/Sony 777ES SACD/ProAc Response D18/GSP Solo ULDE/GSP cables and ICs


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2017 at 6:44pm
It was the tape decay.


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Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2018 at 8:03am
An interesting read if you haven't already read it: https://issuu.com/headlinerhub/docs/headliner_22/52" rel="nofollow - https://issuu.com/headlinerhub/docs/headliner_22/52

It's an interview with an Abbey Road Studios mastering engineer. It shows that the quality of the record depends on the engineer's discipline, and I suppose also on which engineer the studio chooses.





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Not simple enough for Google-Bot to understand...


Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2018 at 9:31am
Interesting. Not surprised by (3 comment in the final paragraph about tuning to lofi.


Posted By: Robnpg
Date Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 2:53pm
For me Vinyl is more engaging especially when I have the time to go through the process of picking a record, setting it up on the table, etc etc. But digital works when I just want to quickly fire up some songs.  


Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 3:45pm
Hi Robert
I totally agree with you on that. For me it's CD, when it is late at night ( and have had a beer or two ) Better off with a CD on than a record playing, falling to sleep and wearing the needle and the vinyl out plus you can't play vinyl in the car. So for me Digital has it's place, I do have good recordings on both CD and Vinyl. BUT you can't beat going to see a good live band

Jonathan


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Pro-j tt,Ortofon 2m Bronze cart,Audiolab 8300CD,GS Reflex M. Solo headphone amp both with PSU1,MF M2si amp, Monitor audio silver 100 speakers, Atlas cables and Lautus cables


Posted By: fluddite
Date Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 8:41pm
Originally posted by lfc jon lfc jon wrote:

Hi Robert
I totally agree with you on that. For me it's CD, when it is late at night ( and have had a beer or two ) Better off with a CD on than a record playing, falling to sleep and wearing the needle and the vinyl out plus you can't play vinyl in the car. So for me Digital has it's place, I do have good recordings on both CD and Vinyl. BUT you can't beat going to see a good live band

Jonathan

So true. What I miss most at the moment (and for the foreseeable, alas - at least in the UK). Vinyl is wonderful, digital has its rightful place(s) - but the live experience is by definition unique - good, bad, ugly - or all three. Like Eric Dolphy said - "gone in the air"....


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 8:51pm
I don't care much for form. If online download, CD and vinyl all had equivalent quality and availability, I would choose download. Instead I choose CD because download quality is poor and vinyl is unavailable/expensive, too big to store and can be tedious to set up and operate. But I'm a music lover, not an audiophile.


Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 05 Jun 2020 at 8:54pm
The last band I went to see was Outlander at my local pub, the land lord gave them their 1st gig Have seen them 4 times now, never a bad night plus they are a local band to Plymouth

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Pro-j tt,Ortofon 2m Bronze cart,Audiolab 8300CD,GS Reflex M. Solo headphone amp both with PSU1,MF M2si amp, Monitor audio silver 100 speakers, Atlas cables and Lautus cables


Posted By: chapsjon
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2020 at 11:46am
As I've said before, I always prefer physical. Typically, I prefer the experience of vinyl. Sometimes I think it sounds better too, but that depends on mastering, pressing, etc.... I often look for used CDs as well, even vinyl I already have, so that I can listen on the go, at work, or when I just want to put on background music and not be so connected to the turntable. I generally prefer CD to download because I can rip CDs in non-compressed format and have a physical backup if worthing goes wrong. Maybe I;'m old-school, but I still feel like I don't actually own something if it's digital only.


Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2020 at 5:07pm
Hi Jon
Well said
I don't do downloads I'm with you I don't feel I would own that copy of music , and with my luck with computers I'd end up losing all my music.
(If I buy  new Vinyl and It comes with a download I do it then) but then I have the vinyl record, I have not yet got round to recording vinyl, some times I do buy the CD of that album at the same time.
I have heard of people losing all their music on computer that's It all gone, and have lost money.

OLD SCHOOL IS BEST
Jonathan


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Pro-j tt,Ortofon 2m Bronze cart,Audiolab 8300CD,GS Reflex M. Solo headphone amp both with PSU1,MF M2si amp, Monitor audio silver 100 speakers, Atlas cables and Lautus cables


Posted By: chapsjon
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2020 at 2:27pm
Hey Jonathan,
I've never tried recording vinyl to computer. Back in the day I used to record to cassette for music on the go, but haven't done that in probably 30 years. I am trying to leave a legacy with my kids on music and having some small successes. They listen to entirely too much music via streaming on their phones, sounds way too tinny for me, really annoying I think. But they do each have a few records of they love. My youngest daughter is a huge Stevie Wonder fan so I bought her several of his records that she was delighted with. 
It does seem true that most people I've played records for really think they sound great and are intrigued by the "novelty" or nostalgia, even my youngest daughters teenage friends think it's cool; yet it seems another leap for them to actually embrace it for themselves. I guess in their defense there's a bit of a hurdle with equipment, space, and the media; whereas everyone has a phone and YouTube.
As for me, as you said OLD SCHOOL is Best, Jon.


Posted By: Robnpg
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2020 at 2:53pm
I've done it but YEARS ago. And I didn't do it well. I do have some LP's I would like to convert to Digital. Looks like the Accession will help to do so.


Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2020 at 3:03pm
Hi Jon
yes the kids of today. Had a mate with his grand kid round one day last year let her look at my vinyl collection she was only 8 years old she said how do you play them on your phone, I think she was joking?

Jonathan


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Pro-j tt,Ortofon 2m Bronze cart,Audiolab 8300CD,GS Reflex M. Solo headphone amp both with PSU1,MF M2si amp, Monitor audio silver 100 speakers, Atlas cables and Lautus cables


Posted By: rockyboris
Date Posted: 18 Jun 2020 at 5:56am
Why Vinyl? Normally I would say because it just sounds better but tonight I am listening to a CD (Amazon was out of vinyl) called Raising Sand and it sounds awesome almost as good as a vinyl record. Why Vinyl? The question I have is why would anyone convert vinyl to digital? I'm sorry I don't get it. It's like reverse alchemy, converting gold to ......Vinyl is about the experience, the feeling of being part of the music, it's all about the music..... Keep in mind elevator music is digital, XM radio is digital, compare that to a U2, Beatles, Pink Floyd, Moody Blues, Miles Davis, Nirvana vinyl album. Why Vinyl? Because when I sit down to listen to MUSIC  I am actually listening, not reading a book, doing a crossword, texting, answering emails , no I am listening to MUSIC and that's why vinyl.

Mike



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GSP Majestic Enigma PSU1
GSP Proprius
GSP Accession M Enigma PSU1
GSP interconnects
Rega Planar 6. Sumiko Blackbird cart
Klipsch Heresy Mark 4
Audio Arts cables
Rel T-7 subs


Posted By: jupiterboy
Date Posted: 18 Jun 2020 at 2:50pm
Originally posted by rockyboris rockyboris wrote:

Why Vinyl? Normally I would say because it just sounds better but tonight I am listening to a CD (Amazon was out of vinyl) called Raising Sand and it sounds awesome almost as good as a vinyl record. Why Vinyl? The question I have is why would anyone convert vinyl to digital? I'm sorry I don't get it. It's like reverse alchemy, converting gold to ......Vinyl is about the experience, the feeling of being part of the music, it's all about the music..... Keep in mind elevator music is digital, XM radio is digital, compare that to a U2, Beatles, Pink Floyd, Moody Blues, Miles Davis, Nirvana vinyl album. Why Vinyl? Because when I sit down to listen to MUSIC  I am actually listening, not reading a book, doing a crossword, texting, answering emails , no I am listening to MUSIC and that's why vinyl.

Mike



If you do a very good job of recording vinyl, you will capture much of the sound quality. I suspect that many of us won't be able to manage a vinyl collection forever. Mine will probably end up on something like a NAS drive, not because I want to give up playing records, but because age and loss of personal space will require some changes. The recording of vinyl becomes doubly important when only poorly compressed or hard limited digital copies exist. I have recordings of Wire's 154 or VDPs Song Cycle that are so much better than the CD versions I've had. 


Posted By: rockyboris
Date Posted: 18 Jun 2020 at 4:41pm
I can see your motivation to preserve your LPs I know it doesn’t take long to fill up a bookshelf with records. I can’t explain why I’ll pass over several hundred cd’s to put on a vinyl record, cds are easier to use, you don’t have to clean them and they sound good. Why vinyl? There is something about the process of putting on and listening to a good vinyl album, maybe it takes me back to when I was a kid I don’t know. The experience, you wouldn’t go to a concert and watch it on the big screen, I want to experience it and that’s what a good vinyl recording does for me. Even a good digital recording just leaves me wanting more. I see you are from Buffalo, are you old enough to remember a local band called Big Wheelie and the hubcaps? Maybe I made your case, I can’t find their album.

Mike


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GSP Majestic Enigma PSU1
GSP Proprius
GSP Accession M Enigma PSU1
GSP interconnects
Rega Planar 6. Sumiko Blackbird cart
Klipsch Heresy Mark 4
Audio Arts cables
Rel T-7 subs


Posted By: chapsjon
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2020 at 11:59am
I agree that much of vinyl is the experience of it; the "connectedness" to the music if you will. When I want to be immersed in the music, I choose a record if I have what I want to listen to, otherwise I will sometimes put on a CD. For me though, I never feel quite as immersed in a  CD, probably because the physical interaction required for a record makes me feel more connected.

If I want background music, I usually do not put on a record. Background music is not typical for me, but I do put it on if we're having friends over for dinner or something. In these occasions, I don't want to be connected to the music (having to flip records, etc...) because that means be distracted from conversation.

Bottom line, music serves several purposes for me, but when it's about the music, I always prefer vinyl or live (either playing in the band or listening) when I have the means.


Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2020 at 1:56pm
Hi Jon
Yes as I have said before you can't beat LIVE music and better with a pint or 3
I do agree with you music as several purposes for me too
vinyl for me is about the experience coming to the end of a side then turning over for the next side all part of playing a record. I do like CDs but I do tend to skip tracks when playing them, where as Vinyl I play all the album.
Put my headphones on put a record on and I'm immersed in the music. And if I'm in a sad moody putting some thing HAPPY on makes me feel better too 
Long live vinyl



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Pro-j tt,Ortofon 2m Bronze cart,Audiolab 8300CD,GS Reflex M. Solo headphone amp both with PSU1,MF M2si amp, Monitor audio silver 100 speakers, Atlas cables and Lautus cables


Posted By: brubacca
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2021 at 7:30pm
I find that Vinyl is king for some records and others CD/Digital is better on others.  Have not dived down to the nuances on that one (like how it was recorded, Digital or Analog).  

Just listen to the music.


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Regards,
Charlie
Pennsylvania, USA


Posted By: lfc jon
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2021 at 11:02am
Charlie
To me it can sound great on CD and VINYL, I think it's all down to how it's recorded if it's done bad it's never going to sound good what ever you use to listen to music. 


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Pro-j tt,Ortofon 2m Bronze cart,Audiolab 8300CD,GS Reflex M. Solo headphone amp both with PSU1,MF M2si amp, Monitor audio silver 100 speakers, Atlas cables and Lautus cables


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2021 at 7:32pm
I agree with Jon. Good recordings may sound slightly different depending on how it is played back, bad recordings can be rough if a guilty pleasure.



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Jon

Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.



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