Can snake oil fix a bad room? (a survey)
Printed From: Graham Slee Hifi System Components
Category: DIY AUDIO
Forum Name: Owner's Hot-Mods
Forum Description: Tell us how and why you hot-modded your audio gear
URL: https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4273
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Topic: Can snake oil fix a bad room? (a survey)
Posted By: Graham Slee
Subject: Can snake oil fix a bad room? (a survey)
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2017 at 10:54am
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Disclaimer: I am in no way associating myself with or promoting the use of snake-oil products. Firstly the definitions: Snake-oil has come to refer to any product with questionable or unverifiable quality or benefit. A bad room is one which has poor acoustics, making it difficult to hear all the joys of your music. If we're stuck with poor acoustics what can we do? Perhaps a little snake-oil could help? And there must be a reason that snake-oil exists in hi-fi. Perhaps some of it came about because a guy had a bad room and found by chance that something helped? He may not have had a clue that his room was bad - most of us wouldn't know how to find out - but now we can. Go to http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm and enter your room dimensions. It will tell you a lot about your room. It will tell you how tightly spaced room modes of similar frequencies are, and if less than 5% apart, it could explain why things may not sound as good as you think they could. Then again, you may be happy with the sound you're getting regardless. This is for people who are aren't. Now, if your room isn't exactly up to scratch what do you do? One answer I found on the internet was "to move". Not very practical. But I have heard it said by numerous people that the use of one idea or another has helped them tidy up a muddied sound. As these products or other solutions can be described as questionable or unverifiable, then they will often be lumped under the label "snake-oil". I will add here that in my unsuccessful previous listening room I found by swapping desks for another type improved the sound quality - it didn't boom as much. I don't think of that as snake-oil but some might. So here's the survey: 1. Please provide your room dimensions (ceiling height by width by length). 2. Go along to http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm and enter the dimensions there and comment on what you read. It is a bit technical so your comment(s) can be in the form of a question(s). NB. unfortunately this can only do rectangular or near rectangular rooms. 3. Tell us about awkward things like glazing down one side or chimney breasts. 4. Tell us about any tweaks you may have done which seemed to help and improve your results. If you think any of these could be classed as snake oil don't be embarrassed and say so. This forum doesn't tolerate abuse so nobody will try to shoot you down in flames (moderators at the ready please). OK, that should suffice, but I'm sure we could have to expand it to include other factors as they (may) arise. Now, let me point out that even in a room considered to have perfect ratios there has to be some damping. An empty room will sound empty and echoey. Exactly what amount of soft furnishings you need is difficult to quantify, but I don't think there is any need to go overboard. We don't need an anechoic chamber! Understanding the results: When we enter our room dimensions in the calculator it gives us lots of information. I'm no expert in understanding most of this, but if you take a look at the section called "Computed Information" it will show you whether your room has passed the "R. Walker BBC 1996" test. There is also a Bonello chart which shows your results and shows what's "good" and what's "bad". What I did was to partition off part of my workshop to make an exact best room ratio according to Walker, but not being big enough meant placing speakers close to the walls, and I had to use absorbers to make it appear that the speakers were further away from the walls and corners than they are. Absorbers might also be considered as snake-oil to some, but mine were built as closely as possible to published BBC designs. Even so there has been much subjective judgment as to how many, what type, and their placement. I have been asked which are the best room ratios, but I have only experience of my room. The Bob Golds calculator can show what is "best" through trial and error. In my case I found the ratio 1:1.3:1.61 (ceiling height:width:length) was doable and removed all what I found objectionable before. The actual size is 7'6 x 9'9 x 12'1. I was limited by the width and height and so I could only adjust the length by building a partition. Even so it can be seen that there is a congestion of modes around middle B or roughly 250Hz, but after lots of reading about BBC talk studios and control rooms, it seems 250Hz is often a problem frequency. Both types of absorbers I am using are tuned to be quite effective at this frequency however, and I only needed a total of 7. Any more and some music appears lifeless. Over to you. ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Replies:
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2017 at 2:39pm
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I Will have a more detailed look at this later but logic by Richard suggests that if colourations, booms, blooms around the bass region are properly eliminated one way or another this should be less likely to excite room resonances. I don't particularly like the term snake oil which could be applied to such products as cables speaker or otherwise? More later. |
Posted By: Adytiger
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2017 at 5:23pm
Hi! Interesting discussion point. It seems to me perfectly understandable that room ratios, reflectances, surface absorbtion characteristics, etc. can influence sound waves and imaging. I have more trouble understanding how pointy spikes, mains filters and green rings around the edge of cd's can improve sound quality but it does make for interesting debate!  Will have a go on the website and feedback later. |
Posted By: miT
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2017 at 5:39pm
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Hi all, The new customer-engaging emails are an entertaining read, hence I'm here. Apologies for my never-ending absence from the forum. Life and work is always so busy; I'm only replying now due to being on annual leave because we moved last weekend! As we're still in the middle of unpacking everything and I haven't picked up my new speakers yet, I can't really comment much on this but the email updates will be interesting. As to what is included in snake-oil products, I can only comment on the few things I have tried, namely automatic room correction. I have been using an Antimode 8033 C to balance my various subs for a few years now, and my AVRs have used various versions of Audyssey. The Antimode in particular has been outstanding and produced sublime results; I cannot fault it. As for Audyssey... There are improvements but it would be hard to quantify without trying on my new speakers as my cinema kit wasn't a good example of "hifi". From my (limited) experience though I'm all for room correction and think it could be the answer for real world room issues once you've physically adjusted as much as you can, although not all are created equal. Some of the "summit-fi" systems out there come with their own systems in-built so I'm confident it would improve even high-end systems, although I don't currently have a truly high end system in place to compare for myself. Yet! Tim
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Posted By: carolus
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2017 at 6:04pm
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Hi, I don't see (understand) the relation(-s) between "snake oil versus bad room" ... I am still from the old school ..... so (audio components in home made): No snake oil when I listen to music (only a single malt)... No spikes on my 5 way horn concept & home made electronics (amps, X-over, CD-drive, Dac, tuner, TT & TA air bearing ...), cabling (amp & driver) in ordinary 2,5mm2 ... About my (or) room ... all audio components in the living room with L=11m, W=5m & H=2,5m. Impossible to compute in metric the (exotique) divers modes ..... I can say, I have a WAF 10/10 .... she (& other listeners) loves the @ home large deep music scène .... It's music, I like it .... One (musical) note: In the past, I did (for the fun) some (long blind) test like (big) slate beneath CD-drive & TT & amps, rubber rings around tubes (300B e.o.), cleaning & edging CD ......result: no musical amelioration ... Sorry, I can't go further in my reflexions & (audio) experiences ..... Karel |
Posted By: Ragtime Society
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2017 at 6:12pm
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Hello: New forum member. Snake oil is a disparagement really. Many things including objects in the room contribute to the ultimate sound. Orienting the stereo so it wasn't parallel with the walls helped or should I say that was the situation I ended up with because the rest of my room treatment is lots of records. Moving components away from each other also important. I would think users of Graham Slee products would be more music and not so system oriented. Meaning in my case, if I'm thinking about the stereo there's a problem. If I'm deep into the music the stuff is doing its job. Like theater, you don't want to be conscious of the hidden mechanics. Suspension of disbelief. Having said that the best thing I did since I added the GS cables was to place both turntables (Well Tempered and Technics (for 78s)) on granite slabs sitting on sorbothane discs. More detail. More magic. Definitely not snake oil. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2017 at 6:31pm
I agree, but no other short phrase sprang to mind, and that was after days of thought. But I'm sure you intelligent lot are able to read through it and get the gist ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Ragtime Society wrote:Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2017 at 7:11pm
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My Lounge/listening room is L-shaped, 7m x 6m x 2.35m high with a 3m x 2m section out of one side and a fireplace/chimney breast in the middle. I've tried entering the major dimensions (7m x 6m) as one room, considering it as 2 rooms using the major and minor axes (7m x 5m and 6m x 4m). The results generally show "yellow" problem areas in the lower frequencies 28 to 53 Hz, all other frequencies are green and the Bonello curve shows in the good classification. These results align quite well with hearing tests which identified some boom at 30, 45 and 73 Hz when playing slow sweep and single frequency test tones (sine and pink noise). The boom was at particular positions within the room, presumably nodes. Initial "cures" were adjusting stuffing in the speakers and repositioning them. This reduced the boom a little. Crude bass traps helped quite a lot, although were not aesthetically acceptable (many will understand this problem, for which I've never seen any snake-oil offerings!!). minor repositioning of the 2 sofas within the room made the greatest difference by placing one at a major node and using the other at the listening position slightly away from another node. But as yet no snake oil I'm afraid. Ian ------------- Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it. |
Posted By: Adytiger
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2017 at 8:01pm
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CanI just check something? When the chart asks for room length is this the on-listening axis or the longest dimension? To explain, my hi-fi is set up to point across a room i.e. the shorter dimension not along the room (i.e. the longer dimension). Which do I enter as the length - the former? |
Posted By: izafireman
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2017 at 8:07pm
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Well you know my room dimensions from the info I gave on my thread I started. The latest tweaks I tried were tilting the speakers back as suggested by a forum member which worked a treat and also the Ikea using the Oak cones which I had always been sceptical of. But when combined with the Ikea Bamboo butchers block (which incidentally look great as shelves) the results were amazing, it was like a light being switched on...and that was using an ipod! ....surely things will be much better when the Pink is back? With regards to other improvements that have made a difference in my room they were ..a dedicated 4mm ring main, I would have used better cable but at the time I did the re-wire I was unaware of the range of cables for sale for this purpose but even so...it made a difference. Same for a separate earth, especially as I live in the sticks and the mains/earth are not the best, I think the normal household earth is back through the neutral supply (PME ) I think I was told....correct me please if anyone knows about this. Double boarding plaster board walls also got rid of vibrations along with filling the voids with several cans of expanding foam. I also clipped every single household cable that went through any voids to stop any vibrations from them to. Pete Oh and a big tweak I forgot to say. I complained to my electric supplier that bulbs blew in the house and when I listened to my turntable it did not sound right. I asked them to check the supply. Guy came round to put a measuring device on my mains and confidently told me I was wrong and the mains was tip top. Three weeks later he returned and was rather sheepish as the mains supply was well below what was expected and a few weeks later a new transformer was fitted to supply the village. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2017 at 9:49pm
Longest dimension. In fact I've entered dimensions in the wrong order and it gave the same result. Basically it's working out the room's ratios. ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2017 at 9:59pm
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Just to clarify what this is about, the following explanation which points to this post may help... What I'd like to know is can so called snake oil solutions improve things when there are room issues. I almost found myself going down that route in my previous failed attempt at a listening room. Perhaps calling them snake oil is a tad unkind? We'll have to see. And I've started another topic - a kind of survey - in which we could discover a lot more from each other. see: https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/can-snake-oil-fix-a-bad-room-a-survey_topic4273_post52980.html#52980" rel="nofollow - https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/can-snake-oil-fix-a-bad-room-a-survey_topic4273_post52980.html#52980 I've also invited every member we've ever had to take part I also put at the begining of this topic: Snake-oil has come to refer to any product with questionable or unverifiable quality or benefit. It is understood that a sturdy turntable support is not snake-oil, and I suggest it is a good idea to use such even if the room measures perfect. ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: graham61
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2017 at 7:38am
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Hi Graham. Excellent idea for a survey, and I am looking forward to reading comments. It's not just the shape of the room though. In an 80-odd year old house with suspended wooden floors, the floor flexes when walked on, so things in cupboards, display cabinets etc gently rattle. Add to that the inevitable doorbell and telephone interruptions and I suspect I will look on some of the contributions with envy. And finally, if only I could trade in my 75 year old ears for younger and more efficient models!
Good luck with the survey. Graham61 |
Posted By: ezlxq1949
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2017 at 8:07am
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My listening room is a bit of an acoustic nightmare. It's a two-level combined foyer / dining area / sitting room (6.38 x 4.18 m) with a raked cathedral ceiling (anything from 2.9 to 4.1m high depending on where one stands), large picture windows on adjacent walls at one end and a permanently open archway into the house at the other. Calculate that! Assuming that the overall length and width are the crucial dimensions in spite of the change in floor level, I find that both heights give roughly similar results from the calculator. I haven't done much tweaking mainly because it's the main social area in the house and it has to be kept neat. I have two sets of wall-mounted speakers which are both too close to the corners but there is nowhere else for them to go. The amount of floor area available for a decent stereo image is quite small. It's not ideal but there are too many constraints. One set of speakers is mounted high on one wall pointing along the long axis, the other well above head height on the adjacent wall pointing across the short axis right at the picture windows. Now that I am pleased with my TT, phono stage and amp, the remaining important factor in the audio quality chain is which speaker I decide to use. The larger Paradigms give a very comfortable, broad sound which suits many genres of music. The smaller Krix Atomix are tighter, narrower, OK for watching the TV but not the best for music. |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2017 at 10:53am
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I found a headphone like a HD250II/HD540II or K1000 were excellent as a listening reference for helping to get the speaker sound you want. Building your own speakers with quality drivers and a choice of enclosure that suits the listening room is a great start. Then the room needs dispersion clutter to scatter reflections and fabrics to absorb some bass boom. After that, the sound you get is typically very volume dependent and varies significantly on speaker placement and listening position. ------------- We do not see things as they are. We see things as we are. |
Posted By: hippyeverafter
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2017 at 1:17pm
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You have opened up a can of worms regarding this subject!. On other forums i visit where this is discussed frequently there have been solutions put forward ranging from common sense ( Affordable ) to the Bizzar ( Thousands of pounds being spent ) but at the end of the day its your money to spend and if your are happy with the end result then goal achieved. Getting on to my position i entered my room dimensions in the " Room Modes calculator " . The top two lines came up yellow, the next eight came up light green and the rest of the chart was dark green. Apart from reading that it was mainly a negative result and getting a near good 1/3 octave ( Bonello ) not sure what it all means to be honest?. At the moment i have my DALI Opticon 2 sitting on a 4ft wide solid walnut table with an ultra wide monitor sitting between them backing onto a studded wall and understandbly this is not ideal as i am aware and as there is a door to one side leaves me with no room to manoeuvre. Shortly though i am having extra power points installed in the solid brick wall opposite and will move equipment there, Put the speakers on floor stands and the turntable, audio units on shelf Hi-Fi wall supports. The outlay for this is relatively small but hope to hear the difference. If i ever win the Euro Millions would probably buy Abbey Road Studios and move in there  .------------- Terry "You pass life's shop once in your life so buy the best". Proprius, Accession, Solo Ultra Linear, Majestic, CuSat50 Interconnects, Spatia Cable, Thorens TD206, Ortofon Blue, Dali Opticon 2. |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2017 at 1:18pm
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I tend to find now that the sound does not really change when adjusting the volume unless to silly levels where your ears bleed (well maybe not quite!). The main thing that's changes is dynamics and scale when winding up but otherwise virtually the same. |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2017 at 2:01pm
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I tend to find now that the sound does not really change when adjusting the volume unless to silly levels where your ears bleed (well maybe not quite!). The main thing that's changes is dynamics and scale when winding up but otherwise virtually the same. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2017 at 3:19pm
Sometimes you just have to dig to find out. It is said we all hear differently. Hard to believe after 50,000 plus years of evolution... So it has to be because of the listening acoustic. From a design and development point of view it is important to understand the listener's lot - and these comments should hopefully help everyone. Propaganda over the years ensured the death of EQ (unless an essential part of a phono stage), and so in a boomy room (which at one stage I had) the listener could be clutching at straws, or blaming blameless products which I just about did. I'm sure we've all been there. In the place of EQ there has popped up all kinds of things to "bend" the sound. All you need is a reviewer who doesn't understand his/her acoustic space to tell the world it's good, and the world buys into it - often without understanding and often finding it doesn't work for their particular circumstances - but best go along with it for fear of offending... I would like to thank all participants for contributions so far, and hope many more will follow. ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2017 at 7:27pm
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As I write from my unexpected hospital bed I have some time to write but no tape measure. From memory the widest dimensions are 5.4mx 3.2m 2.3m or close to. This showed with the correctly input dimensions A smooth curve with a modest blip higher up. There is a fire place along the long wall about 6-8 inches deep with an open fire place(gas fire) with proper chimney. Floor is concrete, walls are dot Andy dab over breezeblock type inner brickwork with an injected fibre filling in the cavity with brick outer. The speakers are floor mounted firing out of the bay but closer than I would like due to 'other factors' Bay is new upvc DG firing down the room at the other end there is a double glasss picture fram door in to dining room. Ceiling is modern plasterboard Heaving furnished with two dense and large sofas a chair and thick carpets and underlay. |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2017 at 7:33pm
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In my view the room sounds on the dull and heavy side with a lot of hf absorption. Bass in the past from my transmission line speakers started as overblown/dull/soft sounding with an obvious bass boost as the listening sofa around 5 feet off the back wall. This could be alievated y leaning forward in the seat which cleaned the bass immensely. I will set out the changes which were beneficial in many ways but did not really impact on what appeared to be possible room colourations. |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2017 at 7:38pm
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3 powerful integrated solid state amps (all nominally 110wpc +). Phono stages - era gold >revelation and accession- never compared with integrated phono stage but unless I commented elsewhere the accession has the attribute of minimising the room disturbances I don't recall it did. Speakers never tried in my room other models. Turntable and cartridge as above. |
Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2017 at 8:10pm
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Sorry to hear you're in hospital Richard. Best Wishes for a speedy recovery and return to home. Ian ------------- Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it. |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2017 at 8:11pm
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Positive thought impact items. Separate mains spur and consumer unit 10mm armoured twin & earth -yes cleaned under Bass unruliness and bloat (amongst other things). Installing100A connector blocks in two connector boxes -yes very much so Rewiring the short cable runs to near to consumer unit and through wall to wall socket yes again . Replacing wall socket with fu****h mains socket. This Made a marked improvement in this area. System support mounts orig sound organisation table vs atacarma glass shelves. Suspect this was a step backwards but unable to make a direct comparison. Wooden cones under amp & cd cleaned under the presentation and lower frequencies so did make a modest inprovement here. Les Davis 3D discs. On the speakers definitely removed a lot a unseen bass colourations and bloat. Cabling. In my experiences interconnects did not make the room dissapear thing other than with my final cables particularly in XLR version. Mains block -again in final form yes this hit the right note and removed a lot of hash in the bass which let to a more articulate bass. Mains cables as above but as these were in numerous stages yes particularly on CD and amp. The psu mains (in and out) improved the sound but not in the room colourations way unlike amp and cd. Speake cables one of my biggest changes in my final and current cabling. Fundamental change In presentation and taking the sound out of the speaker and removing room issues UsIng the same cables to reside the speakers; change the speaker terminals and r place the caps did hits the mark though as one project couldn't split the individuals impact of these three items. Speaker plugs Found the WBT silver nextgen bananas a big win in this area. Counter to this the non silver spades added a lot of muddiness compared with non silver bananas Doors Opening the rear glass door behind the listening positions opened the room up and tightened the lower freq. I hope I have covered the majority of items but the end result was massively different from the slow, dull, lifeless and bass heavy starting point. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2017 at 9:58pm
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Great write-up Richard! I can see a great deal of patience with trial and error has gone into making your room work for the music. I know what the "slow, dull, lifeless and bass heavy starting point" is like, and I would never have had the patience to go through what you have. I'm sure many people have problem rooms. What works in one may not work in another, and it makes product development difficult. It shows why a product no matter how well designed might work for some but not others. We're now getting at the crux of the matter. Perhaps we can get some more write-ups like yours? So what has hospitalised you? We want you home ASAP! ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2017 at 11:17pm
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From a contributor in reply to my email... Dear Mr Slee and Friends, I send this email for your consideration to contribute to your forum in response to your survey request. Something my present environment prevents me from gaining full benefit due to the existing spatial compromises (already at the limits of what can be achieved within this space) and in the interests of neighbourly love. I believe that they find my current passion for the Andras Schiff Ludwig van Beethoven Piano Sonatas, a bit too much, Peasants! This is a Generalisation! This is a Point of View! This is an Opinion! This is my real world perspective where a 'listening room' is a luxury and a living room a reality with all the associated compromises of space and furniture. A world where finance dictates and dreams of my 'ultimate' are pursued with optimism and hope. Also a world where dreams and improvements built on hearsay, misinformation and 'paid-for' opinions are encouraged, nurtured and exploited by Brands, Companies and Corporations within the HiFi supply chain. The beneficiaries of the often inappropriately and overused term Snakeoil. The problem as I see it, is this... There is an enormous Void in understanding how an audio system actually works, what the electricity is doing, and how to extract the ultimate level of performance from each component and the system as a whole within an often dramatically compromised environment. This Void is where Snake Oil is injected in order to extract cash from wallet by Marketing Communications copywriters exploiting this ignorance and alas the 'ForumFools' who spew their often ignorant (limited experience) BS opinions all over the Web. Fools who mock Twisted Pair cable construction, Fools who question how 1m of cable can make a difference, also fools who believe the Hype of BS New is Best, that shielded and screen cables are necessary if you have a 'real' HiFi. That any amp less than 150W is a toy. I know how right they'd be, and for how long, were they sat at my table! Although these are probably 15yrs old TopGear Keyboard Kommando. These two types of Twerp are the scourge of this; Interest/ Hobby/ Passion/ Profession/ Obsession/ Pursuit/ Religion/ Calling, call it what you will. This relentless waffle shovelling is an insult to intelligence, understanding and alas to learning. The feeding frenzy has muddied the waters with little hope of realising any clarity. Is our only hope to trust them? They have their dirty deceitful fingers in our pockets. For example, there is no standard for Best performance with basic connectors, we have been shafted with cheap (for manufacturing) mediocre performance RCA's! What hope is there for real understanding outside of the sales brochures? By this I mean the hifi mags n forums. The pursuit of performance should be tempered by knowledge and perspective. Not illusion, fantasy and persuasion. It is actually all about Pound (£) Vs (P) Performance. Some modern electronics are built around the Pound Maximum, Performance Perhaps philosophy. Amplifier designs and performance since 1990 seems to illustrate this point. A number of references I have support the view that, get ready, OLD is BEST! Better designs, better build, better value.... Better Sound. The whole point after all is the sound. But perhaps the corporations are exploiting the youth craving for New New New, not for me, for you, but at what cost? Shameless greed hidden by some BS marketeers, otherwise we would truly get what we pay for.... which can be an expensive deceit. Think modern valve amps... a minefield with first class ownership Kudos. I do not have experience nor budget for such high maintenance exotica, but my reading on the subject both arouses and deters in equal measure. Shielded cables? This is the must have, but why run signal circuit through an additional mass of copper screen? In a studio loom perhaps, but this is more about vanity than necessity or indeed, pure performance. My experiments prove my system sounds dramatically different without shields and screens on mains and interconnect cables. The key descriptive here is different. To my ears a more detailed, open and defined sound presentation is much improved. To others a more dense presentation is better. It's just personal taste, I love beef, I don't like Lamb..... Imagine! This is the crux of the matter which causes all the confusion to be exploited, we don't all hear the same, but define our opinion upon the assumption that our own hearing is somehow better than everyone else's. That we know what is right or wrong. Good or bad, better or worse is a question of experience and interpretation. Facts are Found in Physics. Even on some more insightful web pages there are opinions espoused as scientific, ie 'reliable' hard Fact! which are no more than ignorance and opinion, often contradictory and unsubstantiated. All of this leaves myself as Captain of my own ship rather sea sick and unwilling to sail in those waters. Instead I try to read around the whole subject area in an effort to navigate the Void with enthusiasm for learning and a practical application of understanding or failure there of. This is Physics I am talking about! Not Philips! I struggle with this subject but my ears tell myself when something is right, to my mind!. Just how incredibly sophisticated the human brain is and how hearing is an amazingly sophisticated yet unique 'Sense' is truly a wonder. Who would trust the opined endorsement by a world famous musician or Sound Engineer , yet fail to consider that the years of music at volume exposure has probably damaged their hearing?..... Oi! 'He's Def innit!' So was Ludvig Van!... Oh well...... To find meaning in the Void perhaps a good starting point is to forget about products, brands and budget. Begin with some simple understanding of electricity. The system as a circuit, The conductor a guide rail, not a water pipe! How every item from the 'Wall to Woofer' impacts upon the signal and therefore the sound. This is all about 'Good Vibes' man. The vibrations of atoms in cables/connectors/components all impact on the signal that is then turned into vibrations in air... in a room. It all matters, it's all Matter, Doc. My golden rule is this:- If I've got half an idea, it's enough to get me into trouble! ..... So I read, read read and then keep reading, keeping forum opinions as just that. I don't want opinions, I want information. I want understanding. I want the joy of discovery and the satisfaction of realisation. I also want to learn from my mistakes in DIY adventures into Mechanical and Acoustic resonance. I do not want to make expensive mistakes because some big mouthed idiot told me what components to buy and like a fool I trusted a 'paid-for' opinion in the Void. It is not difficult to extract higher levels of audio performance through experimentation with inexpensive items relating to supports and the placement of each component ..... it all contributes to the sound in the listening space. Which; for the majority of us will always be a Compromise! Push the boundaries of your own knowledge and understanding. On the whole, I now don't expect 'secrets' to be shared readily in this world of Snakeoil scumbags. Who wants to hear some jerk boasting of his Super System online? Surely these types would loath their own type ? I don't understand this narcissism. Besides I have heard expensive kit sound S**T. Badly matched or set up? Pictures online don't show sound, perhaps why no TV programmes explore hifi in any depth? Or perhaps it's just a folly of no worth beyond our own private pleasure? I appreciate that Mr Slee may not wish to endorse the following for commercial reasons. However in the interest of placing beacons in the Void I implore you to make allowance for the work of the late Mr Wright. A man whom not unlike Mr Graham Slee, I believe to be a true renegade and trailblazer in the Void. I came to this book recently after years of experiments based on my muddy thinking. The SuperCables Cookbook by the late Allen Wright as an essential to understanding audio cables whether or not you have any DIY ability or intentions. A brilliant and entertaining read I wish I had bought this book from the start before I bought lots of BS. http://www.vacuumstate.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.vacuumstate.com/ I have found Jim Lesurf (Professor) webpages to be an excellent reference, note his findings regarding measurements of Bi-Wire configuration, at last some scientific proof? My ears tell me my system sounds better wired this way no doubt about that detail. http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html The ForumFool who claims Snakeoil, does he actually understand what is being said?does he have experience? or is he just simple and lost in the Void? I try to 'Explore the Void' with an open mind in the pursuit of knowledge and clarity. That's it. This is the ONLY forum contribution I have ever made..... (No Sh*t! ) Because I don't do forums. I make this exception because I like everything I have read from Mr Graham Slee and I like his Creed! Yours Sincerely, John aka 'Captain Snakeoil'. The Void is calling, and I may be some time. Huzzah! Michael Nyman, MGV. Great Soundtrack of a journey for any Journey, Void or Vacation. ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Drewan77
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2017 at 6:16am
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For me, fixing a room is just that, it's about the speaker-room interface and although other down-stream factors like cabling, equipment supports etc can have a positive effect, if the speakers aren't performing close to their optimum, the sound may still be unsatisfactory. In my reply I have therefore only mentioned a few things that I believe have helped the room rather than many other tweaks that relate to equipment etc. Room related snake oil beliefs that I have read about over the years but not tried, so they may well work, include certain brands of consumer units, breakers & 'hifi' fuses, matt vs silk vs gloss wall paint, wool vs man made carpeting, magic stones placed on speakers, resonance devices and people who listen to vinyl barefoot or even partly clothed to reduce static. One of my mates did discover that stuffing pairs of underpants into the rear firing ports of his floorstanders reduced bottom end bloom ! In the 80s I purchased power blocks, power clamps and various other mains devices, only to remove them a few years ago after careful A-B listening & realising they made absolutely no difference to me. I admit to now being on the cynical side of the fence.
Using the link Graham has provided but away from home, without exact room dimensions - I entered L5.3, W 3.5 & H 2.8 which is as close as I remember. We had this room built for the kids, part of an extension in the '80s when the girls were small & (...alterior motive in mind), I chose sympathetic acoustic dimensions & solid walls/floors. It became MY playroom in the early 2000s The BobGolds programme gives the ratio as 1:1.65:2.3 and then the following... http://www.ebu.ch/trev_274-hoeg.pdf" rel="nofollow - R. Walker BBC 1996: - 1.1w / h < l / h , ((4.5w / h)) - 4): Pass - l < 3h & w < 3h: Pass - no integer multiple within 5%: Pass The programme suggests that room modes dominate 32-122hz and indeed, this is the only range where I have already applied a small amount of digital eq at two frequencies. However it also mentions that there is no modal boost below 32hz and that is not the actual case as the smoothest bass requires negative eq at around 12hz. Graham asks for 'tweaks' that may be useful and I have to say that for me, room measurement is essential, taking calculation or guesswork out of the equation. It shows actual results at listening positions and the effect of anything changed or added (i.e. different positioning of the speakers or an acoustic panel & how it affects each frequency). I can recommend a Behringer ECM8000 & EMC22 interface used with either REW software (free but quite complex) or FuzzMeasure pro (simple to use and equally effective). Speaker coupling to the floor and tweaking toe-in can both have a significant impact and I have become very impressed with (snake oil alert...) Soundcare Super Spikes which are better than anything else I have tried. I am also lucky that my music room is free for me to do as I please & the large amounts of artistic & other clutter I have amassed are arranged for acoustic benefit, usually by trial & error or sometimes measured (larger items). Another room tweak (if relevant) for anyone using subwoofers: Try subwoofer placement at the listening position & then move around the room, listening for the place where bass issues are least apparent - place the sub there. A second or even third sub in separate locations interact with the first and are able to reduce bass nodes even further. It's better to properly crossover to a sub than blend to a full range speaker in my experience & subs also need to be precisely phase & time aligned. Measurement software will assist if you have the means to adjust. ------------- Older than I once was, younger than I'll be ............................. Andrew |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2017 at 7:19am
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Thank you Ian/Graham. In a car anology heart vs carburettor my idle speed was all over the place and Tickover was way too high!!! Interesting comments from the import from John a number I fully agree with. So far as screened vs non screened cables go I am not too fussed either way other than which sounds the best and from my auditions all mine are heavily screened with multiple individual layers interconnects, mains and speaker. The point being made here is not to judge by design is belt better than direct or idler but which sounds best and meets an individuals needs. Sounds like I followed a similar path to drewan re purifier and clamps etc and mine went back on eBay as no noticeable differences. Mains blocks were different with me, they were different and my current block from a different supplier made a huge difference far bigger than an amp upgrade around the same time. Like a lot of things is in the execution and design. So far as mains products go I suspect the benefits are cumulative separate mains feed in, good connectors, cables, sockets, mains blocks with no weak links to impede. Two more points on the topic Relation found that cables touching or fastened to walls or other hard surfaces makes the sound slow and one note in the bass. Whilst no specific comments personally when juggling cables and hardware around sound can deteriorate without apparent reason so whilst I don't have an answer good cable management does appear relevant other than the crossing at 90 degree point. Contact cleaning can make a big difference particularly with mains inside and out of the house. I use deoxit, the gold version and shield. This did have quite an impact even just on my mains earth rod though takes a week or two to settle to a proper balance can be too thin and unruly initially. I am sure there was another point but will raise that later when I remember! |
Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2017 at 11:02am
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One thing I notice that the calculator doesn't account for is the type or absence of wall. My room has a set of glass double doors to the left of the speakers and the wall to the right doesn't actually exist: it's a wide arch into the living room. So some of the sound bounces off the walls, some of it disappears into the next room. I must say that I struggled to interpret the results beyond noting that every result was green save for one bit of yellow. ------------- ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m. |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2017 at 12:57pm
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Fair point John makes about not all hearing the same. The basic ability to hear is one point and I have no idea whether even with identical hearing tests two people would 'hear' the same. Difficult to test I suppose and our ears, heads and bones are all different. How our brain interprets is another thing. I would assert it can be trained and with experience we learn to assess in the same way a sommelier would. As has arisen a few times comments from other family members as seen in occasional posts are often very valid albeit fall outside of the 'tuned' or 'educated' ear line suggested above. From my earlier ramblings my personal conclusion from my experiences is that when coming to room interaction and removing issues that hardware has more limited impact. I am sure speakers would but cannot specifically comment in my own circumstances as none tried. With the exception of my speaker cables I have found attention to mains power from comsumer unit, appropriate cabling, socket, plugs and blocks together with effective regular cleaning has been the single most important factor in reducing the room issues. I can only really comment on the ones I have experience of. This has been a serious investment which if all bought new which they weren't would have funded the whole of Grahams phono stage range if excluding the revelation/jazz club!!! Was it worth it - in my view definitely on my circumstances. The other item which has proved a revelation (sorry Graham) has been the Support pads now being used between speakers and stand for such a modest investment and that is on a concrete floor. This isn't to say it is huge in absolute terms but rather icing on the cake which makes the rest more usable. Since going home shortly may have to resort to some musical R&R. |
Posted By: Gidders
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2017 at 7:28pm
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Well I've put my room dimensions into the calculator & I get mostly green but I'm not really sure what its telling me. However I would echo what Richard says about attention to the mains. When I moved here some 15 years ago my system sounded really bloated & sluggish. Initially I put it down to suspended floors (now) vs concrete. First the LP12 went on a wall mount shelf - improvement. Then I went under the floorboards and put chocks in the joist supports to try & improve stability - another improvement. Then I wondered about the mains supply 1930s house (now) vs 1970s house and I had found in the previous house that using a purpose built extension sockets made up with ring main cable, Crabtree switchless sockets & a fuseless mains plug had brought significant dividends. So I installed a separate 4 spur Memera consumer unit with 6mm & 10mm mains cable to wall mounted junction boxes & hard wired 6mm cable mains tails terminated in Merinco plugs. OMG what a difference. And yet some people say how can changing things in the house make a difference with all the junctions between the power station & your front door - definitely in the snake oil category! Since then I've swapped out equipment case fuses for 10A, 15A & lately 40A fuses all of which have brought improvements. I've taken the 3A fuse out of my PSU1 & replaced it with a brass blank. When I replaced my speakers a few months ago I initially placed them where the old ones had been but didn't feel they were giving their best. An afternoon experimenting with position moving them around narrowing position down created a much more focus sound. Interestingly, on the whole subject of room modes, some time ago L*nn incorporated Space Optimization into their streaming products & for my room it calculated a massive -28db mode at 18.8Hz, -22db @ 48Hz, & 52Hz, & lesser modes as you go up the spectrum ------------- Gidders --------- LP12/Ittok/Lingo/Gram Amp 2 SE/L*nn Klimax Renew DS GS Solo ULDE/PSU1/HD800 Naim 82/HiCap/250 Kudos Cadera 2 |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2017 at 7:40pm
| On the topic of fuses I am aware that there are a number of fuse upgrades available, I have never compared but relied on the fuses fitted to all of my plugs which the supplier assures me are the best he has tried. Personally I have never felt the confidence to operate bypassing the fuses. |
Posted By: Gidders
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2017 at 7:50pm
With the Memera consumer unit with fast trip RCBo circuit breakers, these will cut out far faster than any wire fuse will blow so I'm happy with the protection these are providing. All I can say is that Bussman 10A quick blow fuses are a BIG improvement on your standard case fuses, & replacing mains plug fuses with brass or copper blanks is another big plus. ------------- Gidders --------- LP12/Ittok/Lingo/Gram Amp 2 SE/L*nn Klimax Renew DS GS Solo ULDE/PSU1/HD800 Naim 82/HiCap/250 Kudos Cadera 2 |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2017 at 7:50pm
|
Fitting or larger fuses is also something never tried although the principle of using high capacity mains components reflect the philosophy and of my mains supplier who uses 100A blocks in his top mains block, and I my cables are over 50A for the feed from my consumer unit and through the wall and 30A my mains cables. Some common thinking even though different methods. |
Posted By: Mr. Smooth
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2017 at 10:15pm
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Hopefully, any tweaks will bring satisfying results, even if only in one's head! I use isolation blocks under all equipment feet--Amp, Pre-amp, Headphone amp, FM tuner, AM tuner and CD. One oddly noticeable improvement was in AM reception. The signals are stronger and reception is much quieter / static free. |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 21 Jul 2017 at 7:45am
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I have dug out a frequency sweep CD to confirm the theory later today. One other point which is likely to be of relevance is the frequency response of speakers. I know this was explored at length by Graham in his recent speaker thread but in there is badly positioned 'hump' or double hump which matches a room issued this will make it far worse? This may be compounded further by resonant materials (grahams ceiling boards for example). I know there are some who use digital management of frequencies which will help. |
Posted By: Bonzo
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2017 at 10:14pm
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Well I entered the room dimensions and haven't got the foggiest what all the resulting info means although under the R Walker BBC 1996 with a room ratio of 1:1.17:1.48 I have the following -1.1w/h <1/h <((4.5w/h)-4): Fail -1 < 3h & w < 3h: Pass -No integer multiple within 5% Pass I'm not really bothered whether this says my rooms c**p it works for me. The room's a suspended wooden floor so the turntable lives on a wall shelf, it's one component to a shelf on the stand, cables run along the floor but speakers are placed where they sounded good to me, I just sit back and enjoy. |
Posted By: RichieCactus
Date Posted: 23 Jul 2017 at 6:00pm
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Snake Oil? ... well my music sounds best when I'm wearing my red going-out trousers ! Ok I'm being a bit flippant - but my point is serious... one's mental mood can make a difference... quite often when I'm in a receptive mood, a certain track will move me to tears... the very same track a week later still sounds great, but not quite as great ?! Anyway the only thing I've bought that might be in the snake oil category would be an Origin Live TT Belt, which did seem to make a slight difference when my Thorens upgrade was just starting, but now I'm back on the original belt. Oh - I do have various mains conditioners / special mains cables / some Russ Andrews bits - all of which did improve the sound when first fitted, imho. Rgds RC ------------- Rega RP8/Cartridgeman MM3/Thorens TD166/AudioMods VI/Accession/Croft RIAA/Arcam A85/Quad 21L |
Posted By: izafireman
Date Posted: 24 Jul 2017 at 9:34pm
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Some really informative replies here, well for someone like me who will openly admit he doesn't know that much when it comes to technical stuff. But from what I am reading I have actually learnt from my mistakes over the years, costly mistakes to, main one being speakers, took me four different models until I ended up with the ones I have which at last I like and a few grand down the drain as such getting there. But in other areas I have, without doubt reaped reward such as ensuring my mains and earth were improved. Now ....back to snake oil....today I received several of the Cardas type noise stoppers to put over the redundant outputs on my amp etc. So, did they make a difference...yes they did and what was really surprising to me it was noticeable. But back to what I was saying above......with regards to technical issues and I suppose the actual sound is, although there is a difference in the sound, which to me sounds less bright and maybe easier to listen too. But on the other hand maybe there is slightly less detail? But here is where the Snake Oil effect might be .......how do I really know unless I know what actually sounds good or superb. Note I did not say bad as even I think I can tell bad when I hear it! So could some of you possibly educate me here? Can the shielding caps actually have an effect on what I am hearing or have I had a glass of Red to many )))....if so why?, the sound I mean , not the wine. Please feel totally free to tell me they cannot possibly have an effect on what I am hearing and it is all in my mind ...for after all this thread is about snake oil ))) Pete |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 24 Jul 2017 at 9:56pm
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Haven't Tried any so cannot comment though I know someone who uses these but not sure what he perceives as the benefit. Since they are easy to fit:remove perhaps you should try using/removing on a variety of material. After a some listening you should be able to home in on the differences. Over a period of time the differences -better or worse should come in to focus. I find a note pad useful. I often listen to a few tracks off an album before switching and then after a few more tracks switch back -sometimes playing the same track then the next couple and moving on. Other times a longer session with one and then switching back to the other can help. If as may be the case your differences are either not there or so small as to be irrelevant then at least the case is proven. In some cases I have found the differences are so obvious the switching only confirms what the differences are. Good luck. |
Posted By: nickitson
Date Posted: 24 Jul 2017 at 10:08pm
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Some really interesting reading here. I have to admit I am largely ignorant of what the shape of my living room does to the sound from my kit and it doesn't bother me too much, since I can't do a great deal about it without possibly remodelling the house. However, I have got used to the sound that I like from my Arcam kit. I think I have the speakers set up about right, since the sound I perceive has about the same balance and tone that I get through my Novo and Sennheiser cans. I do have an Isotek mains conditioner and replaced the mains leads some time ago with some DIY items that used silver plated copper in a plaited construction. That took a while to burn in, but the difference was really noticeable. I have 3 really budget 'snake oil' favourites that have increased my listening pleasure. In order of decreasing cost:
I am convinced these all work and have proved each by testing with others who don't necessarily know what I'm changing. YMMV, of course. ------------- Every action has an equal and opposite criticism. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2017 at 5:13am
A phono socket is basically a hole in an electronics enclosure. It isn't a big hole - it's around 3mm in diameter - but then the surround between the hole and the outer contact is an insulator, so in shielding terms the hole is bigger - getting on for 6mm. If you have lots of inputs and outputs you have lots of 6mm holes, and each 6mm hole has an area of approx. 28mm2. If you have 6 stereo inputs and 2 stereo outputs that makes 16 holes and if you don't have much connected that may be 10 uncovered holes - or 280mm2. Electro-magnetic compatibility is about whether a circuit (contained in the enclosure) is immune to interference, and whether it emits interference. The interference which matters most is way beyond the audible range - right up in radio frequency land. WiFi; mobiles; telemetrics; SM power supplies, chargers, light bulbs; wireless anything; ethernet over mains radiating its harmonic HF/mains frequency mix from house wiring/equipment cables, and so on - and on. Oh, and then there are intended radio transmissions - lots of digital transmissions. And there are fluorescent lights. With few products being EMC tested (people in the EMC industry know of no hi-fi manufacturers who test in the UK - yes, me included, but my products have been tested in S. Korea and passed), how would the manufacturer know if his product has compatibility? Unless they design to the latest EMC best practice and do some close-field testing they don't know. Same goes for emissions. Anything with a "clock" such as a remote control reception circuit for volume and/or switching, and even instabilities in amplifier circuits which can generate radio frequency disturbances - these are emitted via unshielded enclosures - the holes in them. If by covering the holes by conductive means (the "noise stoppers") which obviously improves the enclosure's shielding, improves your sound, then you might conclude the item has EMC issues. IMO the noise stoppers are not snake-oil. ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: izafireman
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2017 at 9:56am
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Thanks for the detailed reply Graham. I am going to remove them later and see how the sound changes. As I said, I could without doubt hear changes in the music but was left thinking 'are these good or bad changes', But maybe I should trust my ears a bit more as one thing I can see is the music is a lot easier to listen to and that has to be a good thing. Pete |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2017 at 6:58pm
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I have tried various isolation/decoupling devices under sources, amps, and speakers. A wall mounted record shelf helps and so does a good quality hi-fi rack. I have found wooden cones or even little wooden cupboard handles change the sound of some sources. After years of speakers on spikes (which I now see as nailing them to the floorboards!) I was inspired to try having the feet sit on gel pads, four heavy duty ones designed to take 30kg's between them. It was a trial to decide if the advertised Gaia feet would be as good the reviews say and so good I've not gone any further. The gel pads are probably not as good as Richard's LD pads but a revelation for me as the bass is much better and the mid and high frequencies so much clearer. They are like different speakers after adding some pads costing 1% of their price! The doh! moment was knocking on the top of the padded cabinet which sounded like MDF and the still spiked one which boomed thanks to my wooden floor joining in. Only took me 40 years to get to that one. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2017 at 7:35pm
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The other issue of speakers not on spikes is of rigidity- if on a carpet the speakers will move/wobble slightly as the driver pushes against the air? Not sure how the theory and practice differ on that one but may well have some impact? Coupling to a wooden floor will have a different impact on concrete though not to say it removes the problem. |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2017 at 9:36pm
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Decoupling methods for isolating speaker cabinets don't have to be expensive or elaborate to be effective. I've never had the space for big speaker boxes but even if I did, I wouldn't use spikes. They'd just damage/scratch the surface they rest on. Spikes are also rigid so even though the contact area is small to minimize passage of vibrations/resonances, they would still be able to "bounce" or shift slightly on hard surfaces if the material they are attached to is resonating. And even if they don't move but they elevate the bottom of the speaker cabinet off the floor, the cabinet underside panel will still be able to emit vibration into the floor. You can't really win with a purely isolation method IMO. Sensible damping materials on the underside like layers of carpet or foam would help to alleviate bass boom being emitted into the resting surface, as well as absorbing high frequency reflections at the same time. Pro-dominant hard floors are just boom waiting to happen as soon as the volume starts going up. I'd be willing to try spiking into very thick foam or very thick carpet but that's about it. Gotta get the balance right between dispersing sound and absorbing it. I envisage too much of either will have their own problems.
Adding my experience from cycling... When I inflate my tyres too much, they are hard and don't absorb anything so bounce on rough surfaces. The fore and aft flex of my carbon fork helps to dissipate vibration. Carbon fibre is of very low density so has a high resonant frequency so whilst it might be good for damping low frequency vibration, it would ring in the highs. Maybe you could have a pair of concrete slabs wrapped thick in foam and carpet, suspended a little above the floor by small hydraulic ramrod-type devices (like a front shock of a mountain bike). Your speakers would be free to "bob" up and down as much as Bob's warped vinyl records do in his record player videos...
------------- We do not see things as they are. We see things as we are. |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2017 at 9:50pm
| Going back around 40 years now experience with a family members IMF tls80 2 improved which were large, very heavy transmission line low stand mounted speakers with exceptional bass extension and performance did benefit from spikes on to the concrete floor. The bass was cleaned up, tightned and made more dynamic with the spikes. It may have been a difffernt story on timber or suspended floors and given the 45kg weight incl strands and 20hz bass extension this may be a factor also but perhaps demonstrates one size doesn't fit all. |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2017 at 4:43pm
|
Following Pete's prompting I invested in some RCA caps this week. I ended up with the AudioQuest rather than Cardas as they came in packs of 10 which I need and decided against the shorting plug variety also. Used Rikki Lee Jones 'accoustic' CD and China Crisis (which I find revealing of rhythm and 'tine within a tune'). Initial impression with the caps installed was of greater presence around the vocal area and maybe a little more open. Relatively small margins but noticeable though little noticeable change in other areas or bass. Removing these the soundstage fell backwards slightly though bass showed little difference. Maybe a little closed in by comparison also. I also tried something with a slighter more forward presentation Alf (Alison Moyet). Before reinserting I nipped up some of the caps which were a loose fit (having sprayed with Deoxit before original install for the benefit of the sockets rather than caps). The original views were confirmed, vocals being crisper, more detailed and maybe less mushy overall. The overall sound was tighter, more interesting (I got carried away with Alison Moyet so to speak) and played a lot more than the intended two tracks. Clarity a touch better with more finer detail? Despite my long held scepticism on these type of caps they do represent a small improvement. Whether having 10 open inputs provides more of a problem I cannot say but despite starting with a headache, I am still listening over three hours later and really must stop and work on my allocated job list! |
Posted By: RichieCactus
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2017 at 8:13am
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I'd forgotten I actually have similar things to these in my main amp. Been there for over 10 years so I can't recall if they made a serious or even minor difference. I'm interested in this "deoxit" stuff - does it work ? Do you use it on all your connectors - even the gold-plated ones ? Rgds RC ------------- Rega RP8/Cartridgeman MM3/Thorens TD166/AudioMods VI/Accession/Croft RIAA/Arcam A85/Quad 21L |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2017 at 10:22am
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RC, I use a combination of deoxit, deoxit Gold and deoxit shield. The gold is designed to. W used on gold/silver contacts but your would need to be guided by their blurb available on line. I try and clean all of my contacts regularly I target 6-12 months depending on frequency of plugging/unplugging. Unlike physical items you cannot switch back to the pre-squirt state so direct comparisons are not always easy but treat my speaker and amp binding posts (gold), speaker plugs(silver), all amp RCA/XLR in use, silver RCA & XLR connectors. I wouldn't like to quantify the changes though they do take a few days to settle down. I also treat all of my accessible mains connectors and plugs. Last year just treating my earthing rod connectors made a significant difference, as did the external connectors before they enter the house. Also treat my mains plugs (both ends) and power block. The mains sees the biggest change -In part I suspect as some are external, they are carrying higher current amongst other things. Initially the sound shifted fundamentally with a light but very tight bass and rather stident but detailed and open mid/upper making most music sound impressive but fatiguing. This calmed down after a 5-14 days leaving a less coloured and constricted sound with far greater dynamics. Possibly because my system has been pretty stable for the last year and it sounds v good I haven't had my spray cans and screw drivers out yet but will do over the next month. Hope this helps. |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2017 at 1:01pm
Thanks to Pete and Richard's comments, I've just ordered some AQ caps myself and will report back after some listening. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2017 at 1:27pm
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Returning to an earlier part of this thread the decoupling of my speakers definitely improved the sound, particularly removing the bass boom which I had wrongly ascribed to my nearly square room. The pads I used were Audio Serenity ISO-9H-35 isolation pads rated up to 30kg for 4 pads which worked for my 27kg speakers. The pads do squash down* a bit and I found it necessary to drill a hole in each pad to bolt it to the feet of my speakers with a short M5 bolt and washer to maintain speaker position. *Ash made a good point about soft suspension having an optimal range before, like an overinflated bike tyre, becoming too rigid. If I was going further with the decoupling I would want to explore a larger contact area for the constrained layer. Right now I like what I'm hearing more than I did before. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: RichieCactus
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2017 at 2:36pm
Thanks Richard - I will definitely try some rgds RC ------------- Rega RP8/Cartridgeman MM3/Thorens TD166/AudioMods VI/Accession/Croft RIAA/Arcam A85/Quad 21L |
Posted By: izafireman
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2017 at 5:00pm
| Just a word of caution with Deoxit. I used it on a couple of plugs and mains blocks and over time it made the plastic degraded to the extent the internal housing crumbled . It was very clear from the faint red staining on the parts that crumbled as to where the Dexoit had been. The areas not touched by it were fine. I spoke to one of my relatives who has used it and he had the same problem. Try to ensure it just goes on the metallic parts of you might end up with damage to plastics. |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2017 at 5:26pm
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I tend to spray aiming a the metal but is difficult to avoid plastic contact. I wipe up excess and tend to out some kitchen roll underneath for drips. I have been using for around 5-8 years without any discolouration or worse, possibly it may interact with certain plastics but not others, whether that be plugs, housings etc. Manufacturers Craig state it does (should be) non-harmful to plastic. |
Posted By: izafireman
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2017 at 6:36pm
Yes I also now avoid spraying anything plastic but Deoxit without doubt reacted with MK plugs and also a power block from a well know supplier. I suspect they have had other things sent back to them with damage from Deoxit as they sort of knew what I was saying when I told them of the problem and told me to send the damaged power block back and replaced it for me. I also checked Craigs info but I can say without doubt it damaged the plug and power block. No big loss but just letting others know that it might harm plastics. I might when the winter nights set in ))....spray some on a few sample plastics and see what the result is. |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2017 at 10:20pm
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I would not personally recommend spraying fluids on electrical contacts in case you short out connections. Gold-plated contacts are very resistant to corrosion. Keep the equipment away from moisture and very humid environments and simply wipe contacts with a clean non-abrasive cloth that it VERY slightly damp. I personally use unscented Dettol anti-bacterial wipes for cleaning my audio equipment. I take one out the pack, wring it out very thoroughly until only slightly damp, put it over my index finger and gently rub the surface to be cleaned. ------------- We do not see things as they are. We see things as we are. |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2017 at 8:43pm
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I agree with the posts above but must point out that Gold doesn't oxidise at room temperature or pressures. It's the other stuff on the contacts we should remove in regular cleaning and repatching. Houses are full of dust with organic crud that gets into everything. Fingers are covered in grease and bacteria. By the way I fitted some Audioquest phono caps yesterday and think it sounds slightly better. I shall see if the frequency analysis is different... ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2017 at 9:10pm
Well this probably proves nothing but here goes. The yellow noise spectrum is with the RCA caps in and black is without the caps in the extra input sockets of my EXP. Output of Accession on full, SME IV arm in rest with Phoenix loaded at 100 ohms. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2017 at 10:01pm
| Odd the difference is evident at very low frequencies if I am reading this correctly? |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2017 at 11:21pm
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Yes which wasn't what I expected Richard. I think even the little mid and high frequencies would be more audible at my listening levels. Bearing in mind I turned the Accession output up by around 10dB these are pretty low levels of noise so I doubt I could hear the difference shown in the noise floor, which would surely be masked by the music and the vinyl roar even on my cleaned records? Instead it is probably what Graham has written about RF mixing with audio, and what happens when that gets into a circuit. Maybe I should run the test on gear that is not as well engineered as GSSP/HFC! If I have a chance tomorrow I will record the same section of an LP with and without the RCA caps and probably see no difference! With the caps on the music does sound better to me, a little crisper on percussion and more focussed. Or I've been at the snake oil again... ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2017 at 12:02am
 I suspect we are looking at the noise floor of my little digital recorder which is in my hifi rack on the shelf above my BDP. So I moved it up a shelf and redid the sampling - you'll see the 50Hz and 150Hz peaks are lower. The impact of the caps being over the spare sockets is negligible here IMO, which reinforces the need to have music playing. A good idea regardless! ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2017 at 2:13am
"Designers have often been surprised at the signal integrity and EMC problems caused by simply replacing a device with the same type in a smaller package. One designer used a chip-scale IC in 2000, operating at the very low clock frequency of 1kHz, and was amazed to find that his product was failing emissions tests at 1GHz, due to the 1 millionth harmonic of the clock." (Cherry Clough Consultants, Advanced PCB design and layout for EMC. Part 1) So, if I replace a negative feedback parallel capacitor bank with a series capacitor bank I hear less "hash", but the only difference I am able to measure is due to the parallel inductances of the capacitors changing the direction of the phase curve ever so slightly positive at 110MHz, where the series capacitor bank does not. The difference is only 1.3 degrees. The IC I am using is a shrink size package... "The increasing emissions occurs because smaller silicon feature sizes means less capacitance in the devices faster switching edges (shorter transition times) hence more energy in a harmonic spectrum that extends to higher frequencies The shrinking silicon feature size issue ... also applies to some analogue ICs. ICs are being made using silicon fabrication processes that employ ever-smaller feature sizes simply to improve the yield from the silicon wafers to make more money for the semiconductor companies. So even buying the same old devices doesn't protect a manufacturer from 'die shrinks', and a new batch of ICs can make a previously EMC-compliant product non-compliant, or even make its operation unreliable by compromising signal integrity." (Again, Cherry Clough Consultants, Advanced PCB design and layout for EMC. Part 1) Some will consider this snake oil I'm sure. ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2017 at 8:42pm
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Because you've planned for this issue we enjoy hifi without these problems. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: Chris Firth
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2017 at 12:32pm
I fitted some today, and I hear improvement too. It's not earth shattering, but I am hearing improved resolution and deep into mixes. Bass seems to plumb deeper into the depths too. |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2017 at 4:56pm
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There does appear a small but noticeable improvement from all those that have recently tried some over a range of equipment. Top Gear had a cool and uncool board, it seems maybe we need a genuine and other board, of which these RCA caps appear on the genuine board! |
Posted By: Captain Snakeoil
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2017 at 7:28pm
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it was your discussion on this thread which led me to try something on a budget as £70 for the 20 caps I'd need is too much for me to gamble with. I realise I have left myself wide open for ridicule, I do stress this in my post. However, I also stress the plugs I've cobbled together do indeed improve details in the 'soundscape'. That I am extremely pleased with the results and am in No doubt as to the benefits of capping unused RCA's. Once again I offer my thanks for the knowledge, curiosity and intelligence shared by key members of this forum. Thanks John
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Posted By: Chris Firth
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2017 at 8:02pm
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I'm still trying to get my head around the cause of the improvement, because all the Audioquest caps do is attach to the ground connection. Maybe plugging the holes stops the music leaking out all over the floor ....... |
Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2017 at 8:32am
That might be the most credible explanation. I can't verify the effect as I don't have any unused RCA inputs on my Majestic, perhaps the best solution?  ------------- Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it. |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2017 at 9:06pm
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I had modified (please don't try this at home) my Elevator to add a second pair of MC inputs. It was those which had open and then capped off with the Audioquests. Given the knowledge and example RFI measures Graham shared last week, you can see my open sockets were effectively antennae feeding interference into the circuit board. Even so the difference is quite small which I think reflects how well the EXP is designed and built, even if someone drills two extra holes in the metal box. As I am only running the one MC cartridge now I may reverse the mod soon. I will leave the Audioquest covers on the redundant pair of phono sockets. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: Chris Firth
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2017 at 9:54pm
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I went round to see an old friend this afternoon, and took the caps with me. Fitted them to the unused inputs on his amp, and had the same wtf moment as I did yesterday. He's going to be putting in an order for these caps. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 16 Sep 2017 at 10:15pm
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Only goes to prove how much of the 'connected world' is getting itself inside equipment, which just happens to be to do with EMC: emisions and immunity - which I have been harping on about for longer than these caps have been around! ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Captain Snakeoil
Date Posted: 17 Sep 2017 at 12:35pm
| You will probably spend your life waiting for people to catch-up. Some of us never will. But don't let that hold you back. Your dedication to sharing knowledge does not go unrecognised, it is greatly appreciated and valued. It's a rare thing. |