Accession Duo
Printed From: Graham Slee Hifi System Components
Category: Turntable Audio
Forum Name: MM: Moving Magnet | MC: Moving Coil
Forum Description: Learn about the differences between moving magnet and moving coil cartridges here
URL: https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4263
Printed Date: 24 Apr 2024 at 8:19am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Accession Duo
Posted By: ICL1P
Subject: Accession Duo
Date Posted: 04 Jul 2017 at 1:33pm
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It's good here that the Accession MC is ready for launch. I assume this means that Accession Duos are closer to reality (MM+MC or MM+MM or MC+MC). Graham, what do you expect would be the approximate width of an Accession Duo; would it be 2 x Accession or closer to the Majestic? ------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
Replies:
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 04 Jul 2017 at 1:46pm
The answer to that would be yes . . . Either the same width as a Majestic or 2x the Accession. Too early to say to be honest. Then there's the guys who go around playing high fidelity music at venues - "disco for grown-ups" who want mixing facilities, so I'm a bit torn as to what to do. ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
ICL1P wrote:Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 04 Jul 2017 at 5:53pm
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Yes, I can see that mixing facilities would complicate matters, not that I really know what it means. Is it like a balance control between the two stages instead of a simple switch? ------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 04 Jul 2017 at 9:33pm
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That's a cross-fader. A mixer isn't all that complicated unless the designer wants it to be. Think of it as a level control on each circuit. The ouput of the pots (their wipers) are summed via resistors (one per channel) into a summing amp, and the Accession already uses summing amplifier configurations for its main circuitry. The output of the mixer summing amp provides the mixed program, which is usually one or the other input unless doing a segue. It would use one of these anyway after the Accession "twin" level control, and so it's just a matter of two pots instead of one. A turned down pot still leaks some sound (but you have to listen hard) and so to please everybody it would need a mute switch. Just throwing ideas around here. Further comments/interest welcome. ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2017 at 8:14am
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This does sound like quite a niche market. A Duo would be expensive (in GSP terms, anyway) so how much would a mixer add to the, er, "mix" ? ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2017 at 11:55am
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High end disco seems to be getting more popular. We now have two customers who play vinyl direct to audiences, and one who is an advisor on such things. I would have to ask John C, but I'm sure he mentioned we'd supplied some of our "better" phono stages for an up market Ibizan club. Home users may just want a phono preamp which does MM+MC but that market is stuffed full of competing products and I don't know if I want to waste my efforts in that direction. The response I get from newsletters never changes - reading between the lines people aren't that interested in innovation and just buy something that makes a nice tune. There are a few who recognise my efforts, but the majority don't seem to care. The "twin" would have to feature card slots to accomodate the different set-ups people want: (MM+MC or MM+MM or MC+MC) as Ifor noted. The very next step would be to have a line input also, and then we're into preamp territory, and there's little call for a preamp with two RIAA inputs and only one line. Yes, I have often been asked for such a product but not sufficiently to make it viable. Then there are professional users who want three phono input channels. Occasionally we are asked to supply three identical phono stages for such applications. The purchaser often takes the products apart to make them fit in one unit. From the above I believe a mixer type of selection could result in a viable product that we could sell a few more of. It is easier to implement than switching - costs would be similar. It has the benefit of being able to set individual levels such that cartridge outputs which vary widely are accomodated, and that must be worth having? It would be good to get more views as I don't want to be barking up the wrong tree. ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2017 at 1:47pm
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For me, I'd just want a switching twin MM to feed the single analogue input of the Majestic. If it ends up with more than one output, I wouldn't be interested. It would be good to know that if I ever wanted to go down the MC route I could replace an MM card with an MC card. ------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2017 at 2:16pm
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Some form of modular design would help a basic design accommodate users needs. This may include the need for a factory return for upgrade or if user changeable depending on practicality and cost. I only have MC need but in theory this could change so having one or both could be an asset if not impacting on core price. Useful to have 78 rpm module for some also? So long as casework can accommodate all normal options the innards could be left unfilled and sockets blanked so long as has the capacity? My needs are simple i.e. Best sound, good connectivity with the flexibility to change loading, gain for some as my preamp already does that and maybe XLR option in and out? Twin inputs no use to me but clearly are for others -again maybe optional? |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2017 at 7:09pm
The existing Accession has two outputs: fixed and variable, which would be retained on the "twin", and so I guess you won't be wanting one? The simplest way to make it modular would be to use a half width or 42 HP card frame; with suitable rear panel; top and bottom cladding, and perhaps wooden end cheeks to make it look nice. It would need to have two input modules (MM+MM or MM+MC or MC+MC) and it would need an output module (cards with card fronts). So that's thee modules (cards) out of a possible five. Therefore a basic unit would have a double-width blank front to fill in the space left.  Deja Vu! (OK, I know the case is upside down) Each input card would have an output level control which is obviously needed because of the various cartridge outputs - unless you would want to keep adjusting your volume control every time you changed to the other TT. It would feed an output card which can be a plain switched stage, or a mixer stage. It would also enable a high output card to be fitted to suit all those valve amp people who asked me for at least 2.2V rms out. Another space could be used for a headphone amp. The size? 267mm wide x 135mm (3U) high x 240mm deep. Basically the same as this lot but half width . . .    ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2017 at 7:25pm
Sorry, what I said isn't what I meant. Yes, I would want both outputs, but not two of each. Maybe this lot should be moved to thread dedicated to the Accession Twin. ------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2017 at 7:38pm
Wooden end cheeks! Nice 'n retro!  How about a full width rack unit with slots for a Solo, Majestic and a couple of Proprii as well. Put a turntable on top and you have: <ta daa> a music centre . . . Being serious - how living room friendly would a "rack" be? I guess making a bespoke rack housing for the modules would be just too expensive. If it weren't for the mixer, you said a Majestic-width case might do. Would this need to be factory configured with the two phono stages of choice? I'm guessing all the switches need to be doubled up? Would there be just one set of outputs? So many things to think of! ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2017 at 9:25pm
Agreed but it could cause some confusion  (we're all so used to drifting off topic)
Thought you'd like that. If you've room for a full width card frame then it could make things easier to source for me, but a basic three card unit would have a lot of wasted space. Studer managed to fit a 40 watt amp on a card . . .
You'll have seen the size of some 5.1 channel amplifiers? They'll be 3U high and at least 17" wide. I was just guessing at the case size and later realised it would need to be plugged modules because there are differences between the MM and MC stages (as I've been preaching for ages), and being analogue the connectors need to be top quality, and that means what they use in studios. See the first page of this: https://b2b.harting.com/files/livebooks/en/PRD0200000100063/downloads/livebook.pdf
Yes, each second stage of an MM or MC channel obviously has its own record EQ following the cartridge EQ, and that's where the switching between the different upper time constants happen for RIAA; NAB, and FFRR LP. The idea of using a mixing module allows a main and a monitor output which can be used independently such that the monitor output would select one or the other inputs whilst the main output is doing either. Or something like that. I will have to dig out the CCM3 design work I did a long time ago. ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2017 at 9:50pm
| 135mm high, is that correct? Thanks over 5 inches and that is 2 1/2 times the current sizing? |
Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2017 at 11:38pm
I don't know; I keep looking up my new Majestic and I think it looks gorgeous. Wood wouldn't improve it. ------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2017 at 4:18am
You can have it plain - YAY!  As for the size, the plug-in boards aren't simple little 3 transistor boards some 70s manufacturer made a killing out of, and gathered an oh so one way mind following with. Those fitted in a 76mm high case. The component density of the Accession MM is greater than the Majestic. It took down my beloved 1989 DOS CAD software through lack of available extended memory. A massive contrast to what some people get off on in this age. In the Accession MC there are a lot of components which simply can't be fitted on in 2D, so have to be soldered on the underside. And every single component serves a proper function. There's no bloat to boast with. Few designers are capable of packaging audio circuitry at such density and is the very reason why YRN used to pay me the equivalent of 50-60K in today's money... back in the day when one's abilities were actually rewarded (just before it all went down the tubes - as it is today). Forget the mixer (it's OK, I can feel it being used to whip me) but there are two different phono preamplifiers to do two different tasks properly and which don't muddy the waters in the "accepted way" (simple minded designers - and reviewers it seems - believe an MC stage is an MM stage with more gain, or, an MM stage is an MC stage with padding). Then there is need of an output board to which is switched the output of the phono preamplifier boards. So that makes three circuit cards and I have not yet included the one required to give an output so large as to drive the beloved valve amplifiers designed by revered designers who somehow cannot make them sensitive enough (although such mastery was abundant in the 1960s). I must resist the temptation to publish the abbreviation FFS! ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2017 at 6:28am
| Thank you Graham. At what is double the height of the majestic I cannot accommodate the height so sadly will have to stand aside of the new MC Accession and spend pennies on something else. Width and depth not an issue. |
Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2017 at 7:41am
I don't think the height mentioned will apply to a solo Accession MC, but just to the twin. ------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2017 at 7:51am
I suppose I should understand it all a lot better than I do, but I get lost in the technical stuff! In simple, very simple, terms how is an Accession MC better than an Accession MM + Elevator. ------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2017 at 8:14am
 ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2017 at 8:25am
So the Duo's development is (to put it simply) - taking the existing MM & MC circuit cards, making the output card(s) and physically arranging the controls for the casework? (And designing the front and back panels). So not a lot to do, then . . .  ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2017 at 1:13pm
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Based on what Richard said I think the duo or twin needs to be a new topic. The Accession MC is the same size as the existing MM. ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2017 at 3:16pm
| Phew what a relief thank you, I am all ears again👂👂 |
Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2017 at 7:18pm
I knew it was a good idea. ------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2017 at 8:54pm
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And here it is in its own topic ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2017 at 10:26am
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It maybe an idea for folk to suggest what they'd like to see in the Duo (which I guess is its working title for now). This idea came from, IIRC, a desire to have a GSP phono amp offer both MM and MC in the same box. And given the different demands of MM and MC amplification - which Graham has clearly explained as not just needing a change in gain - two distinct circuits need to be in place, and going for best SQ these need to be Accession-based. So - I think a starting point for the Duo box might be to have one set of Accession controls on the front panel, with a toggle switch to go between the two circuits, two set of inputs on the back panel, two sets of dip switches, one set of outputs (fixed+variable). Maybe others see this differently, and maybe there are sound technical reasons for a different configuration? ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2017 at 7:31pm
It sounds good to me. ------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2017 at 9:07pm
Maybe nobody else is interested.  ------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2017 at 4:36am
I bet Bob will be interested. So with you and me that makes three. It's a bit of a bugger that the world (and most members here) ignores what would otherwise be such a great manufacturer, but sod 'em, let them waste their money. We'll do it for the sake of it  ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Drewan77
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2017 at 4:42am
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I'm very interested in the topic but not in the market for a duo phono stage at present. The proposal made by Bob seems logical as long as when toggling between MM & MC inputs, the output volume is similar for an 'average' output cart of both types or the MC variant could perhaps have an adjustable gain. ------------- Older than I once was, younger than I'll be ............................. Andrew |
Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2017 at 9:23am
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I'm inclined to agree with Andrew, it's not a case of no interest, but do I need or want one. As I only use one turntable and cartridge combination at any time and am more than happy with MM (for the moment), I have no need for a dual capability phono stage, much as I might want one! Replacing my Reflex M with an Accession M will be the next upgrade I make as and when circumstances allow. As to combining MC and MM in one enclosure with output level and switching, I do think this will be a very limited market. As an alternative to developing an enclosure and pcbs for the Duo might a simple 2 channel "pre-amp" with input level and switching be viable, this could also be used as an input switching device to the single Majestic analogue input. Just a thought. Ian ------------- Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it. |
Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2017 at 9:42am
Accession Duo, Majestic, Proprii is fewer boxes and fewer PSUs. ------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2017 at 11:00am
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Like drewan passing interest but cannot see any likely circumstances where I will end up buying one. It would be great for road testers of cartridges and such like or someone with twin armed TT or with multiple TT/carts. The commercial decision is whether development time be repaid from sales or is like a concept car as to what can be achieved. Possible to produce as a bespoke order but suspect price will be high for one off orders however good? |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2017 at 11:08am
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The thing is we only have around 42 truly active members of which only 21 seem to have any interest in phono stage developments on here, and that's out of 2645 total membership. And as for a Graham Slee MM/MC stage there are only 5 so far (excluding me). This "Accession Duo" topic might attract a few more but anybody can see that the trend is moving away from high quality high fidelity (to studio booth standards) towards lifestyle turntable ownership as a symbol of some kind, or where people kid themselves on that they're listening to the "real thing" because he who shouteth loudest ... etc. It reminded me of Sykes, and the faithful but small following Eric and Hattie had for their busless bus service. I remember the day not many years ago when people searching Google for a phono stage used to get my name as a suggestion. I have to admit it that through my painstaking endevours to bring vinyl listeners the very best in reproduction that I am rapidly becoming an hasbeen. It clearly shows the direction society is taking. ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Aussie Mick
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2017 at 11:19am
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Hi All, I'm interested, for certain. However, for me to change over involves saving the money for the Duo AND for a top notch MC cart. I'm really keen in going MC, but as I've been so happy with my Reflex M and 2M Black, I would want to make sure a MC cart would be an obvious improvement. Otherwise, why would I move to MC? For me, who will probably never have more than one arm, I'd want MM/MC for sure. Mick. ------------- Rega RP8 - Apheta 2 - Accession MC Enigma PS -Solo ULDE (Focal Utopia) - PS Audio M700 - Fical Kanta No2 |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2017 at 12:24pm
If like so many do, you listen to commercial pressings you will most probably find that with MC there is a little something missing. Sorry to say this and most sorry for myself if anybody believes this, but those viewing the video I recently shared about how vinyl records are made, will have noticed a tonearm on the record cutting lathe. Whatever could that be used for? It looked like a good tonearm, and other lathes I've seen pictures of seem to have a tonearm of equal quality - and not some relic from the Dansette days. Perhaps they use it for quality control? There are circuits in the cutting machine electronics to "engineer" the sound: de-essers are one example. I'm told they're used and you'd expect somebody to at least listen before committing to production. I'd have thought so. I'd have expected that somebody responsible for the release such as the producer or at least the recording engineer might have been involved. Or they may have entrusted it to a mastering engineer with ears capable of hearing what's good and what's not. It begs the question "with what cartridge did they use?" At a guess it might have been a cartridge he (or she) thought could be used by the majority of the intended market? Perhaps therefore an MM? (unless the intended market was audiophiles) Thereby hangs a tale. MMs exhibit a different upper frequency profile to MCs. They use a capacitive input in which the cartridge inductance tunes a particular frequency, and the degree of peaking is controlled by a resistance (47k these days - used to be 68k which allowed for larger peaks). It is only around 1dB or less but it's there, and perhaps a de-esser was set to flatten the result? And if it was, and we all know an MC doesn't have such a bump in its response, then that "flatten" becomes a dip - only 1dB or less - when that record is played using it. Well, that's the only explanation I could find after grappling with the subjective subtle but only slight"lifelessness" in nearly every commercial pressing I've used to test numerous MC stage ideas - including clones of other manufacturers products to check it wasn't just my own. It must have been a year since I asked Bob to digitise some tracks for comparrison in testing the Accession for MC, and I'm only just about to launch it. What do you think delayed it so long? I have had to find a way of countering the subjective lifeless-ness I found. It cannot be done by EQ - that is a big taboo - some bright spark reviewer would find it on his audio analyser. So here enters the sound of components (flat earthers should begin grinding their axes right now), and endless listening tests of album after album - not forgetting the trials of building and rebuilding the listening facility to remove room colorations (and all those absorbers!) - trying to get at the truth via means which suggest the opposite. And it is hiding the truth when you think of it. The Accession MC circuit has just about convinced me by now, but I keep playing records to just in case. I did find one track yesterday which placed a subtle backing vocal further behind the mix than I thought it should be, but perhaps that's just the cartridge? All those other guys who launch MC stages like shelling peas must know something I don't? ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Drewan77
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2017 at 8:57pm
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Graham, the main reasons I do not use MC are clumsiness (I have snagged a couple of cantilevers over the years & am likely to become more cack handed as I get even older) and with fixed headshell Rega based arms, I like the ability to swap styli about. The IQ3/Accession & AT 150ANA or 2M Black /Reflex M give me as good as I think I can get with MM therefore I have no burning desire to change anything. ------------- Older than I once was, younger than I'll be ............................. Andrew |
Posted By: Eric
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2017 at 6:43am
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I use MC cartridges, but so far I haven't listening to any MC phono preamp that sounds better then an SUT together with an MM phono preamp. But so far I haven't not tested any phono preamp from GSP.
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Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2017 at 8:41am
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The Cantus arm would make it difficult for you to use an all-electronic phono stage, because of its exposed wiring. All kinds of interference would actually be being conducted by the cartridge wires which have zero protection, and will not be very much lower in amplitude than the cartridge signal - if not for the fact you are using an MC cartridge. The SUT effectively helps by filtering out the high frequency content, and the moving coil catridge provides a low source inductance effectively making a shorted path for some radio frequencies. But that does not mean it will be clean. There will be frequencies which the cartridge inductance will tune, but these should be of sufficiently high frequency such that the SUT may not pass them. The use of a MM cartridge into a transistor phono stage would afford lots of radio frequencies the opportunity of creating mayhem. As Keith Armstrong of Cherry Clough EMC Consultants told me: "... in-band intermodulation products are inevitable when there are two or more frequencies (which there always are) and any non-linearities (which there always are). "Interestingly, noise with fundamental frequencies that are outside the audio range ... can intermodulate with audio harmonic distortion products that are above the audio range, causing in-band noises to arise. "The thing with intermodulation 'artefacts' is that they are completely alien to the original waveforms, so even small amounts may sound objectionable even though similar amounts of harmonic distortion products might sound acceptably low. You could try an Elevator EXP with an Accession M or Reflex M, but there is the possibility that the interference would be of a level to break through and become audible because of the BJT inputs of the EXP. The Accession MC being JFET will be more immune, but the last paragraph from Keith Armstrong would still apply. Because of the "dictator style" hypocrisy of the EU, its legislation allows some to get away scot-free, whilst others must deal with their consequences. This is illustrated by the above where the arm manufacturer is under non of the obligations that the electronics designer (me) is under. Still, I do my best (it's a case of having to). ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Eric
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2017 at 8:57am
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Thanks for the lesson/information Graham. It would have been interesting to hear/read an discussion between you and the designer of the Cantus arm, Bo Hansson who also made amps and speakers, but he passed away some years ago. My plan is to test the Elevator EXP with Accession M and Reflex M. If it not will work out the next step will be to test the Accession MC.
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Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2017 at 10:14am
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The marketplace is full of phono amps offering MM/MC switching. The demand must be there. The problem Graham has is that he's too principled to just build one circuit with variable gain for a quick buck, having proven that MCs need treating differently to MMs and thus upping the complexity. I'm guessing it would be possible to produce a Duo with the Accession amplification(s) but without the EQ switch or double output to make it more like the competition. This may be a slightly cheaper option, but at the kind of level I imagine - £2,500-£3,000?? - you'd want a fully featured unit. Even this kind of price is "cheap" in comparison to a lot of its potential competitors, though. I'm sitting here with two turntables next to me, one MC, one MM, and with a USB audio interface sitting on my desk with one input. So a Duo is right up my street. Worldwide I can't be that unusual. (No sniggering at the back . . . ) The problem - as always - is reaching the potential customers, and taking the risk of development costs.------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: shashirao
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2017 at 11:08pm
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A quick layman question: I have always used MC carts...and currently have a fabulous experience with the Accession/Elevator combo. Should I expect better sound with the Accession MC? Or would I be better off with an MM cart and drop the Elevator? Cheers Shashi
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Posted By: Aussie Mick
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2017 at 1:46am
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Probably a question for Graham, but on the face of it, dropping an extra box and set of cables should mean the Accession MC gives a better result than MM+Elevator. A purpose designed MC stage should have advantages, otherwise why design one? On the other hand, if starting from scratch a MC stage makes sense if you know you want to go that way. Cheaper and fewer boxes. Quite a few people here love their high output MC carts and also the Ortofon 2M Black and Bronze on the MM side. So many options! Good luck! ------------- Rega RP8 - Apheta 2 - Accession MC Enigma PS -Solo ULDE (Focal Utopia) - PS Audio M700 - Fical Kanta No2 |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2017 at 9:51pm
Best to try it as soon as Bruce has one (assuming USA here). ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Gijo1977
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2017 at 1:25pm
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Sorry for my late arrival! I am sitting here in my listening room with the Australian Accession loaner, trying to determine what I need to buy, so I only have to buy once........ and boom the Duo discussion is located :) I am currently listening to an RP6/Dynavector 10x5| Accession| NAD C388 combo and really happy with the sound. The Accession is a big improvement on the in built stage, so I am now checking all of my future needs against the available solutions to then stump up the $$$$$. +1 for MM/MC option My needs may be a little more easily reached, as I would be impressed and a near immediate purchaser of an Accession M + Elevator duo box (I see advantages in the power supply and interconnect proposition) making it a direct single box competitor to the phono amp touted as having 'synergistic advantages' with my TT... Also, what would it take to create a Reflex combo, given the lack of switches etc... maybe this is the mass-market option 80-20 and all that :) (Massive thought bubble, disregard as necessary) Good luck, I will maintain a bit of a watch on the forum. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 10 Aug 2017 at 8:22am
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MC is one of the greatest marketing pull-offs of last century and this one. "And all the children lost down many paths I bet my life you'll walk inside Hand in hand Gland in gland With a spoonful of miracle He's the guaranteed eternal sanctuary We will rock you, rock you little snake We will keep you snug and warm" The high frequencies on a record - frequencies above 10kHz that is - are almost all harmonics. Fundamental frequencies of instruments are all just about covered by a 5kHz bandwidth. Adult hearing soon falls to 12 or 13 kHz. Vinyl can go to 25kHz but up there the distortion increases dramatically and can reach 100% easily. When musical harmonics meet harmonic distortion, artefacts (bad noises) "drop out" in the frequency range we can all hear. MCs are so good at high frequencies that we get much more of these bad noises than we do with the so-called flawed MM cartridge. We pay through the nose to get worse sound. Any good designer will try his (her) (its) best to make the MC section sound the best it can - to try and minimise all the distortion. The MC section is a difficult circuit to start with. Done right it will be downright truthful. The customer will be rubbing his hands together, watering at the mouth at what is about to be received, but if the designer makes a truthful circuit the results aren't going to be very palatable. The highs have to be massaged one way or another, or aftersales marketing has to be used to convince the customer to not play distorted records. A distorted record is any mass-market record. The more complex the sound the more disorted it will be. And so you will be encouraged to play simple music or music specifically produced to make audiophile discs such that it will not hurt the ears. To me, this is ridiculous. As I want my customers to be able to enjoy as much of their music as possible I spend probably too much of my time taming the vicious results MC often brings. Now, if I made a switch to make such a circuit work at MM levels, the result would be plain boring. This is exactly what a MM/MC stage achieves, and is why I am unable to bring myself to make one. The only way to make a "MM/MC stage" is to make two completely different phono sections and put them in the same box. Hence the Accession Duo. But don't be surprised to find MM urinating all over the precious MC. But it will not have been made to be that way. ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: sheepskinstu
Date Posted: 10 Aug 2017 at 9:16am
Hooray for moving magnet! I love my Goldring moving iron cartridge. Have I fallen into a similar trap Graham? 
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Posted By: Drewan77
Date Posted: 10 Aug 2017 at 3:42pm
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Although I use MM cartridges and am unlikely to move to MC for various reasons, I have always been intrigued by Grahams' views on this, hopefully resulting more from his time & frustration in producing something that lives up to his high standards rather than just cartridge manufacturers marketing spin. I have heard many Moving Coil variants over the years that sounded fabulous to my ears, including a few via either the Reflex C or an Elevator & it seems very likely that an MC Accession/Duo will surpass both of those. ------------- Older than I once was, younger than I'll be ............................. Andrew |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2017 at 8:48am
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In designing these things I have to figure out what in the sound is my fault and what isn't. I cannot put right these: Preceding? (what went on in the control room/booth) Vinyl manufacture mastering tape distortion lathe rotation distortion lathe electronics distortion cutter head distortion stamping distortion handling distortion Turntable repro (the customer's gear) turntable rotation distortion tracking distortion VTA distortion azimuth distortion arm bearing distortion high frequency groove distortion cartridge distortion dirt distortion wear distortion Wiring electro magnetic distortion But I have to put right these: Phono stage parasitic distortion "Moore's" distortion THD distortion noise distortion IMD distortion But there's the thereafter - the rest of the system I don't have any control over. Arm bearing distortion, parasitic distortion and "Moore's" distortion (in bold above) are particularly insidious when it comes to moving coil. ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2017 at 7:34pm
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Suspecting a fair bit of wear on the DL103 and the reserve Eroica LH also being long in the tooth, I decided to obtain a new DL103, and one of Bob's favourites, the Hana EL. The Hana is now mounted in my only ADC (BSR) magnesium alloy headshell, and playing Fragile by Yes. I'm impressed right from the off! I'm still waiting for the DL103 which I bought from one of our dealers...  ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |