Thoughts on upgrade paths
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Forum Name: Buying a headphone amp, phono preamp or hi-fi accessory?
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Topic: Thoughts on upgrade paths
Posted By: Razamanaz
Subject: Thoughts on upgrade paths
Date Posted: 10 May 2017 at 1:12pm
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Decisions, decisions... Potentially annoying newbie questions to follow! I've been lurking on this forum on and off since I first introduced myself about 6 months ago. Someone over at the New Member's Corner then reassured me it would be ok (as in not against forum rules/etiquette) to mention what components I have in my current setup as I'm looking for some advice on future upgrade paths. Here's my current, very humble system: Lenco L75 (basically bog standard, but with some adjustments made and fully serviced by yours truly) equipped with an Audio Technica AT95E cartridge. TCC TC-750 phono pre (was bought as a temporary solution and should have been replaced a long time ago). NAD C315BEE integrated amp. Dali Lektor 2 speakers on stands. Connected to the amp is also a CD player (NAD C515), streamer (Raspberry Pi with HiFiBerry DAC running Volumio) and Sony Bravia TV (connected via a cheap no-name DAC). The TV in turn has a set-top box for IP-TV (Motorola VIP), blu-ray player (Philips BD-"something") and video game (Nintendo Wii U) connected to it with audio passing through the TV. There are some obvious upgrade possibilities here, right?  But I don't have the funds to chuck it all out and replace everything in one go, so I need a long term strategy. I'm thinking I should replace the phono pre first, followed by the cart (thinking along the lines of a Nagaoka MP-110 or something similarly priced, though I could pay more if I find something that suits the funny arm of the Lenco). These two upgrades could definitely be done in the near future. Down the road I'll be looking at replacing the amp and speakers. I don't really have a budget set for that, so not sure what I'll be looking for, but when I go for it I'll want it to be a substantial upgrade. Based on my current setup, would you agree that the phono pre should go first? I've been eyeing up the Era Gold V and the Reflex M - I've read everything about them I could get my hands on and I guess either of those would "outlive" all my other components and keep up with some considerable upgrades both upstream and downstream. Am I right? Now, I know about the loaner program (great service btw!) but I wonder if my current system would be able to reveal the differences between the two? Therefore, I don't know if there is any point in trying to compare them in my system. What do you think? Similarly, I doubt my current system would tell me much about the differences between the power supply options(?). Any guidance here would be most welcome. Oh, perhaps I should mention that I mostly listen to various types of "rock" (anything from Pink Floyd to Black Sabbath to Frank Zappa to Nick Cave to modern heavy metal), but with the occasional excursion into soul or jazz or electronic stuff. Anything goes, really.  Looking forward to any recommendations on upgrade paths.  ------------- Simon "And some people say it's just rock n' roll Oh, but it gets you right down to your soul" (Push The Sky Away, Nick Cave) |
Replies:
Posted By: Wiscos
Date Posted: 10 May 2017 at 5:17pm
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Wow, that's a complex set of opportunities to resolve! I always try to start with the amp / speakers first as this is an important marriage. To my probably out of date thinking good sources should follow as the target is for these to do as little damage to the overall sound. My experience of the Majestic Dac is that this would give you a terrific Dac / preamp and is perfect for adding phono pre's to... The Maj does a great job with tv / digital sources and has plenty of inputs. The fact it can take a proper analogue input gives it a great quality / price point. And it will work a treat with GSP phono goodies, as well as the power amps. Budget is obviously important, but this approach gives you some flexibility in how you implement. Good luck... |
Posted By: Aussie Mick
Date Posted: 10 May 2017 at 10:20pm
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What a terrific journey to take! So many tasty things to choose from...I agree that being happy with your speakers first and finding and Amp to drive them well is first priority. Speakers are the biggest influence on your system sound. However, if you're generally happy with the speakers, then I agree that the Majestic preamp-DAC is a really terrific digital hub, especially if your NAD Amp can function as a power amp. I use my Majestic to run cd transport, laptop, tv, bluray and sometimes digital radio, and I use a reflex m into it's only analogue input. You'll be surprised at what a big upgrade it is for all of your digital sources. Fortunately, the loans scheme awaits! Good luck, Mick. ------------- Rega RP8 - Apheta 2 - Accession MC Enigma PS -Solo ULDE (Focal Utopia) - PS Audio M700 - Fical Kanta No2 |
Posted By: Wiscos
Date Posted: 10 May 2017 at 11:37pm
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Yes, do take advantage of the loan scheme. And even better if you can combine a couple of goodies to try 'em out at the same time. It will really help you determine the best upgrade path. I realise my advice was a bit daft, suggesting speakers and amp, and then ignoring the speakers. However, the great thing about the dac / preamp is that you can hear what that would do at the heart of your system while considering the path and budget impact going forward. |
Posted By: itsmanhattan
Date Posted: 11 May 2017 at 12:16am
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I'm certainly in the minority here, but I'm a big believer in updating your cart and needle. Depending on the set-up, a solid needle upgrade or change of cartridge can make a system come alive. ------------- Manhattan |
Posted By: Razamanaz
Date Posted: 11 May 2017 at 10:18am
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Thanks for
your input, guys! Mick and
Wiscos both seem to suggest starting at the other end. I can see how it makes
sense. Obviously, a new amp and speakers is a much bigger investment than a
phono pre and/or new cartridge. Finding the right stuff is also a pretty
daunting task to me (especially speakers - I have listened to so many different ones and they differ a great deal). I have of
course read about the Majestic and Proprius as well. Reading about the Proprius
I am (like many others) surprised to see how people describe it as something of
a power house (given it’s specs), but that is perhaps a different discussion
and I do believe I should hear it myself. Sadly, my
NAD amp does not have the possibility to run as pre or power amp independently,
so any upgrade in that department would have to include both power and pre
amplification. Regarding
my speakers, I think they are good at the price I paid for them. I have certainly
enjoyed them over the years. At the time when I bought the amp + speakers I was
a student and got a good discount at the local hifi dealer. The thing is, since
then I have heard so many more systems and now have a better grasp of what
music could sound like in my own living room. Based on that, the Lektors will
need to go. (in fact, the plan is to eventually pass the NAD and Lektors on to
my son – it would be a great set-up for his room) To be
honest, I have an itch that needs scratching (hehe) and I do suspect the phono
pre is the weakest link in my system. Perhaps I’ll see if it would be possible
to get a loan of a Reflex M, Majestic and Proprius at the same time. That way I
could do some comparative listening and see where to go from there. Thanks for
helping me sort my thoughts out – it’s easy to get carried away when you start
dreaming. Manhattan,
thanks also for your input. A cart upgrade will happen as well. Do you have any
advice on something that’s not too compliant (the Lenco arm is somewhat on the
hefty side)? ------------- Simon "And some people say it's just rock n' roll Oh, but it gets you right down to your soul" (Push The Sky Away, Nick Cave) |
Posted By: tg [RIP]
Date Posted: 11 May 2017 at 11:14am
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I am not familiar with the Lenco arm, but many folk have enjoyed the Denon DL-110 HOMC which is not seriously expensive and reasonably stiff in the suspension - certainly more so than the AT95. ------------- Tony G |
Posted By: Razamanaz
Date Posted: 11 May 2017 at 1:59pm
Thanks. Looked it up and it seems to be available from one of my local dealers (although temporarily out of stock). Looks like a good candidate. Some googling also reveals that many Lenco owners are happy with it. I have so far only been looking at MM carts (and Nagaoka, which is MI), but since the Denon is a high ouput MC it's made to work with a phono pre for MM, right? Interesting. Cheers! ------------- Simon "And some people say it's just rock n' roll Oh, but it gets you right down to your soul" (Push The Sky Away, Nick Cave) |
tg wrote:Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 11 May 2017 at 2:24pm
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I am sure this a dilemma nearly all of us have faced. There are a number of issues you will be considering many of them financially based and broadly have a foot in the front end and the output (speakers). Your cartridge choice may be restricted by limitations in your arm and you are not getting the full benefit. My thought process has always been if you get something which is going to be kind to your records physically (stylus shape, tracking etc) this will bring longer term benefits even if you cannot hear them all initially and cost is likely to be more modest than other pieces of kit. One other point to remember that cartridges may be more difficult to sell/upgrade in the future that hardware. Arm and TT will need to be matched together and/or with the cartridge and will not only bring their own benefits but allow the cartridge to shine through. I used to believe the phono stages did matter but not really as much as most other components. As I have moved up Grahams range to the Accession/Elevator they certainly do! Whilst they will only be as good as what you are feeding in to them, they shouldn't taint the end results but the further up the range you go the more benefit you will receive. I started at the Era Gold V and moved up in two stages from there. One further point if you wanted to settle on a lower end product initially you could always upgrade and know there will be a ready market for it later. Amp - will be down to your own needs - you have identified the NAD as a potential weak link - the main benefit I would see from upgrading the amp early is that this should benefit all sources you are using. Personally I have found that whilst amps do make a significant difference, perhaps not the biggest bang for the buck vs other items. Speakers I believe are very personal and will be down to your taste and room. If you really know (or think you know what you want) then fine but personally would be reluctant to launch in with a lot of money without a clear thought process. They will allow the other items to shine through but CAN show up shortcomings if they are present further up the chain, you could find something sounds quite poor in your system due to poor matching or any of the earlier components which is not the fault of the speakers. The other issue is over matching. In a perfect world cartridges, arms, TT, phono stages, amps and speakers would all present a similar and well balanced sound. They do not so some care should be taken and in particular not to try and balance out one extreme to another. One saving grace here is that Grahams Phono stages do not (IMO) provide a significant variation form natural/neutral i.e. they are very well balanced. Don't forget cables. Whilst there is a divergence of views they can make a significant difference but that will depend on the cable used (taking here or mains, interconnects and speaker cables). Grahams interconnects are keenly priced and provide a sensible and reliable starting point. Sounds like you are heading down an expensive road but sure it will be very pleasurable along the way. PS whilst the loan scheme is a great way to explore Grahams range, another option I have used for hardware (mainly electronics) is 'pre-owned' from a good source, so long as you know what you want and can be moved on at minimal cost later on assuming a quality product. |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 11 May 2017 at 6:16pm
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Another factor to consider on the phono amp side is the power supply. The Era Gold V and Reflex M can be purchased with the switched-mode plug-top power supply to keep the initial cost down, and then a PSU1 linear supply can be purchased later on. I was a little sceptical about how much difference a power supply could make but when borrowing some kit a while ago I found I had a spare PSU1 to use with my Solo headphone amp (which I'd bought with the plug-top PS). I didn't really think anything of it. But when the time came to send the borrowed kit back and the Solo got it's own PS back, headphone listening was nowhere near as dynamic and spacious as it had been with the PSU1. I think there's often more of a difference when removing a piece of kit than when adding it - you look for something different when you first hear a new piece of equipment. After acclimatisation removing it makes its contribution (if that's what it is!) quite obvious . . . ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 11 May 2017 at 8:21pm
| Yes excellent point bob that was the route I took with my era gold and another attraction was that it was modular and could defer some of the outlay. And yes you don't know what you have got till its gone as the song goes and is true as bob says. |
Posted By: Razamanaz
Date Posted: 12 May 2017 at 11:38am
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Richard, thanks for providing so many good points. I think your "coaching" will provide some useful food for thought. I agree I seem to be heading down an expensive road, which is why I must think of it as a long term project. I realize I won't have the ultimate setup on the first attempt, but still I'd like to get as close as possible. I noticed that the Majestic and Proprius don't seem to be available through the loaner program, but I'll worry about that when the time comes. Bob: Yes, the PSU1 is also on the radar, but is also an easy upgrade to make at a later stage. Meanwhile, as I enthusiastically told my wife about some of the possible purchases I might make, she put her foot down and is now telling me not to make any big investments (not sure about her definition of "big" in this context, but I'm afraid it's not the same as mine). So there's some politics involved here.  I don't want to be one of those guys who complain about their wives "to the lads", but this came as a surprise to me.  I might just have to present my intentions in a different way, or maybe I have to lower my ambitions for now. I'm not ready to completely abandon my plans just yet though. Some new "boxes" will find their way to me one way or another. ------------- Simon "And some people say it's just rock n' roll Oh, but it gets you right down to your soul" (Push The Sky Away, Nick Cave) |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 12 May 2017 at 11:52am
| Big plans can come in little (GSP) boxes😉 |
Posted By: Razamanaz
Date Posted: 15 May 2017 at 11:50am
Such wisdom! ------------- Simon "And some people say it's just rock n' roll Oh, but it gets you right down to your soul" (Push The Sky Away, Nick Cave) |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 16 May 2017 at 2:10am
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Just like the Proprius, big sound from a small box. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: Razamanaz
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2017 at 2:57pm
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Just thought I'd give you an update on what's happening... I took a step back and scaled down my plans a little bit. The Mrs and I weren't exactly on the same page in the hifi book. Fair enough, I thought...Anyway, to cut a long story short, I clicked the purchase button for a Gramamp 2se a few minutes ago. Can't wait to set it up and see what it can do. Have also laid out a temporary plan for the rest of the system, one piece at a time. Looking forward to the journey and to see where it takes me. ------------- Simon "And some people say it's just rock n' roll Oh, but it gets you right down to your soul" (Push The Sky Away, Nick Cave) |
Posted By: Aussie Mick
Date Posted: 18 Jun 2017 at 3:00am
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Congratulations! May it be the first step of a long and pleasant journey. Mick. ------------- Rega RP8 - Apheta 2 - Accession MC Enigma PS -Solo ULDE (Focal Utopia) - PS Audio M700 - Fical Kanta No2 |
Posted By: Razamanaz
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2017 at 12:31pm
Thank you Mick. Baby steps.  ------------- Simon "And some people say it's just rock n' roll Oh, but it gets you right down to your soul" (Push The Sky Away, Nick Cave) |
Posted By: Aussie Mick
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2017 at 12:36pm
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No! Giant leaps, like you're on the moon! Burn that Credit Card...what's that? Oh, sorry mother, I'll take the pills right away... ------------- Rega RP8 - Apheta 2 - Accession MC Enigma PS -Solo ULDE (Focal Utopia) - PS Audio M700 - Fical Kanta No2 |
Posted By: Razamanaz
Date Posted: 27 Jun 2017 at 7:05pm
Just as I came home from work today the UPS van turned up in front of my house. The Gramamp 2 SE has arrived!  Hooked it up straight away, but the first listening session will happen later tonight. Thrilled! Thanks to Graham and staff for the swift service! ------------- Simon "And some people say it's just rock n' roll Oh, but it gets you right down to your soul" (Push The Sky Away, Nick Cave) |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 29 Jun 2017 at 6:32pm
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Please enjoy a lot of good music! ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |