Mm or mc high output cartridge
Printed From: Graham Slee Hifi System Components
Category: Turntable Audio
Forum Name: MM: Moving Magnet | MC: Moving Coil
Forum Description: Learn about the differences between moving magnet and moving coil cartridges here
URL: https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4151
Printed Date: 19 Apr 2024 at 5:04pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Mm or mc high output cartridge
Posted By: mateusz
Subject: Mm or mc high output cartridge
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2017 at 12:35pm
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Hi guys, I know there is a lot similiar topics here, but still would like your insight. I own Technics 1200 mk5 turntable, with stock arm. My pre amp is graham slee jazz club, than to rme babyface and quad esl 57 speakers. I never tried mc, and would like to upgrade my poor and cheap mm cartridge (or switch to high output mc) . I'm looking for transparency (magic word, which each can define different way) quality soundstage. I'm looking to spend up to 200 pounds for it on second hand market, so something up to 400 or 500 (lesser known till now, best kept secret alike) It will be mostly for enjoying acoustic/jazz/blues records from 60-80s as current electronic music, even if very interesting, is poorly mixed. Regards |
Replies:
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2017 at 5:39pm
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Hi Mateusz. Recommending a cartridge is a tricky thing to do - everyone will have their own favourites based on their own preferences. I bought a new-old-stock SAE1000E (high output MC) from Thakker sometime ago. I loved it so much I went back for its "line trace" brother - which I'm going to be running in soon after years in a drawer. Rather than try and describe the sound, you can hear it on a Dexter Gordon Blue Note track in one of my videos (through a Reflex M): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APJFp8MRyEw" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APJFp8MRyEw" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APJFp8MRyEw https://www.thakker.eu/en/pickup/sae-1000e-cartridge/a-5170/" rel="nofollow - https://www.thakker.eu/en/pickup/sae-1000e-cartridge/a-5170/ No doubt others will give you their thoughts!  ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: Aussie Mick
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2017 at 8:17pm
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I've often wondered about this myself! I've been a MM user and have never had a MC in my system. That looks like a good price to think about experimenting with a high output MC. I assume the character would be majoring on subtlety and detail, being a MC? Mick. ------------- Rega RP8 - Apheta 2 - Accession MC Enigma PS -Solo ULDE (Focal Utopia) - PS Audio M700 - Fical Kanta No2 |
Posted By: tg [RIP]
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2017 at 12:14am
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I have in the past often recommended the Denon DL-110 HOMC and most seem to have enjoyed it. It is not as inexpensive as it once was (little else is either) it can be purchased from http://https://www.thakker.eu/en/cartridges/?filterType=CharacterGroups&addFilter=31" rel="nofollow - https://www.thakker.eu/en/cartridges/?filterType=CharacterGroups&addFilter=31 in Germany or http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Denon-DL-110-High-Output-MC-Cartridge-Made-by-Denon-100-Brand-New-from-Japan-/281716708191?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368" rel="nofollow - 2Juki in HK. Although for Mick who is using a 2M Black already, the Denon would not be an upgrade, from there you might need to go to something more expensive and still find it different rather than better.
------------- Tony G |
Posted By: mateusz
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2017 at 1:18pm
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Thank you guys for input. Morris_minor, thanks for audio example. I'm really interested in sae1000e but it seems its hard to get one, not to tell in good condition. Maybe you could advise me where to look for it? Or maybe know someone who has one for sale? Regards |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2017 at 1:29pm
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That link I gave to Thakker's German website is, as far as I know, the only source now for these SAE carts. They sell new, unused cartridges - left over from when production stopped. Hence the "New-Old-Stock" NOS label. Something to bear in mind about MCs (low or high output) is that the stylus is not user-replaceable. When it wears out the choice you have with a NOS cartridge is either throw it away or pay to get it re-tipped - which may be more expensive than the cartridge was in the first place. New, current MC cartridges sometimes have the manufacturer offer trade-in schemes to get a replacement at a discount. I would offer to sell you my SAEs but I like them too much! ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Posted By: mateusz
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2017 at 2:42pm
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I won't tear you apart ;) Did you have a chance to listen through audio technica mm cartridges: at150 sa or at150mlx ? I could get them new for the same amount as sae1000e. I'm also considering Goldring 2000series (used) Cheers PS I'm listening to your upload of Miles Davis on Vimeo through the tablet speakers and I have a goosebumps! :D so lovely. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2017 at 6:01am
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I own a Technics 1200 mkII turntable, with stock arm. Good enough to tell the difference between the 2M Black and AT150ANV. Both MM and both incredibly good, but should be at the price. However, they can't be making all that many because there is a world shortage of appreciative customers, so prices can only continue upwards. The AT150ANV was intended as a limited edition "anniversary celebration" cartridge, but after 3 years, still being available (http://www.lpgear.com/product/ATC0150ANV.html) and now $1,549.00, bears out my point. £200 second hand? I wouldn't go there. It's not as if a damaged tip can be seen with the naked eye. Replacement styli cost nearly as much as the cartridge itself. If the high output Denon DL110 MC sounds as good as the Denon DL103 (low output MC) I use, then take tg's advice: http://www.harrowaudiohifi.co.uk/denon-dl110-5 Not that I'm an MC fan. The DL103 was bought for test duties, and found to be so good that I think of it as a rather low output MM ... (which it obviously isn't) ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: mateusz
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2017 at 8:54am
| Thank you Graham. I don't know why, it's irrational, I don't want to buy Denon stuff. I never owned any or heard, but still.. So I won't consider it. Now I have to decide between Sae1000e mc and at150sa/mlx mm cartridge. Will buy new, or as close to new as possible (at150mlx). Kind regards |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2017 at 5:38pm
 )BTW you have a PM. ------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
mateusz wrote:Posted By: japtim
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2017 at 8:13pm
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Had an ortofon 2m black Thought it sounded a bit slow and lacked sparkle Went to a Hana sh high output MC ...was exactly what I wanted You might be able to pick one up in your budget ?? |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2017 at 7:34am
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I would recommend the use of a 1k Ohm load plug when using a high output MC into a 47k Ohm MM input. The SPICE model using typical high output MC inductance and resistance shows a spike around 750kHz which often indicates a little oscillation in sympathy with the signal. It's never good having a circuit doing 'two jobs'. ------------- That none should be able to buy or sell without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: ServerBaboon
Date Posted: 26 Nov 2017 at 5:49pm
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Is the loading plug you mention here the the type that TG 1st suggested all those years ago, well 6? https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/cartridge-loading-plugs_topic1246_page1.html?KW=loading+plug" rel="nofollow - https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/cartridge-loading-plugs_topic1246_page1.html?KW=loading+plug (edit) .. and the thread that Fatmangolf has reopened....
------------- Steve ------------- Various bits of GSP Kit ..well two so far, unless you count the cables that is. |
Posted By: tg [RIP]
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2017 at 3:43pm
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Not wanting to answer for Graham here, but that article does make mention of using such a plug and 1K load with the HOMC DL110 cartridge. Good to see Jon taking up with capacitance loading now in that same thread. ------------- Tony G |
Posted By: shashirao
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2017 at 7:31pm
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Quick note of happiness: I received my Clearaudio Charisma MM v2 cartridge yesterday. After toiling for an hour to align the cartridge - took a break...a pour of scotch....and voila...the very next adjustment aligned the cartridge perfectly. So I don't think its all about the technical mumbo jumbo about azimuth, VTA, tracking weight, etc. I believe there is a market to sell Scotch as the perfect solution for cartridge alignment  Now for the happiness part - the very first vinyl I played - a beaten up copy - played perfect. The sound was amazingly detailed, the pairing with the Accession was a match made in heaven. The first thing I noticed was the amazing "quietness" in the overall playback. The singers now truly sounded as performing in a studio. The vocal modulations, sighs, whispers, etc. was clearly audible. This was a stereo vinyl - the instruments were all there and perfectly placed. No one stole the violins on the sly. I am unsure on the details aspect - perhaps it is my MC cart listening experience that tells me the clarity is missing. But I am quite sure it is all there...just sounds a bit different. Of course there is also the standard process of "breaking in" the cartridge. And if that is a true concept, all I can expect is better reproduction with time. So yaayy!! Already impressed with the ground floor view....am sure the penthouse will offer a panoramic view. Next I played a mono vinyl...this was a CBS publication. My previous experience with my MC cart (Presentation) was stunning clarity - to the point of being harsh on high notes and reverb that sounded like Stereo (percussion sound heard spilling out into the right speaker). My experience with 2M Black was that the same recording was subdued - no harsh tones. But also subdued to the extent of instruments overlapping or hidden behind the vocals. And now with the Charisma - the best of both worlds - amazing clarity, all the sounds very much under control and amazing details. The "stereo" like imaging still exists...more like instruments can now be placed in different spots. Oh joy o joy! As I mentioned before - the Accession now remains my reference equipment for analyzing/understanding the differences between the cartridges. So carts may come and go...Accession will always remain powered up in my music room! Cheers Shashi
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Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2017 at 10:23am
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Whilst I usually to do my alignments 'dry' i.e. sober (where's the 'boring' emoticon?) I strongly agree with you about taking breaks when fine tuning the setup. Very good advice thank you and it's helped you to get the best out of the lovely equipment you have for enjoying music. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |