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Proprius

Printed From: Graham Slee at Hifi System Components
Category: And the rest
Forum Name: Amplification
Forum Description: Share your interests or views on amplifiers, preamps, etc
URL: https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2913
Printed Date: 22 Oct 2019 at 11:37pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Proprius
Posted By: Humboldt
Subject: Proprius
Date Posted: 16 May 2016 at 10:46pm
I have Proprius mono blocks at my home from the loaner program.
I picked them up today so I have not yet been able to spend much time listening.
But two things are already evident.
First: They have a very natural sound. Especially obvious when listening to acoustics music I think.
Second: For the price being asked, this must be among the best amplifiers possible to buy. I do not say it is the best amplifier in the world, but it is without doubt one of the best for the money. And you probably need to spend a lot more money if you want something significant better. Whatever better means. I am not certain you can find something that make you happier.    



Replies:
Posted By: DaveG
Date Posted: 22 May 2016 at 6:41pm
Couldn't agree more. I have owned a Proprius now for about 5 days and it is remarkably good. In depth impressions to follow, but for now I'll just say the Slee way appears to be the right way. Yet again!!!


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Dave

Michell Gorbe + HR PSU -> Cadenza Bronze -> SME V -> Elevator -> Accession -> Proprius -> B&W CM6 s2 | Cusat 50 & Spatia cables ->


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 22 May 2016 at 6:57pm
They are tremendous amplifiers, nice little boxes with a great big sound.

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Jon

Open mind and ears, whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: suede
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2017 at 2:34pm
Hey everyone,

I just got a new pair of Proprius amps two days ago and I thought I'd post here, in a few words, my first impressions. I'm using them without any preamp but connected straight to my Reflex M and they're driving a pair of QUAD ESL-57's.

Straight out of the box they sounded rather good to me, but even so I must admit there wasn't an immediate wow effect. Luckily I have some previous experience from getting a brand new Solo UL and a Reflex M, both of which I clearly recall changing quite dramatically in sound through the first few weeks, and especially so in the first few days - from being rather average sounding one day to sounding jaw-droppingly musical and emotive the next. Swinging back and forth in this way for a few weeks or fortnights even.
Well the Proprius sure is no different in this department it seems as today, after being powered up for nearly 48 hours and played for perhaps 6-7 out of those, they all of a sudden went from just sounding "good" to sounding (repeating myself here) jaw-droppingly musical and emotive. Suddenly they were warm and sweet, yet tight with effortless control of bass and with highs as clear as cool spring water. Anyone who's tried a GSP phono stage for the first time will know what I mean.

Now I know they will likely swing back to sounding rather less than their best before long, only to come right back again (and so forth). But knowing I'll be living with this kind of high fidelity music in my home permanently once the burn in period has finished is, simply put making me one very happy music lover!
I'll probably be posting more as they progress in their burn in and as I get better aquainted with them.

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Proprius, Reflex M, Solo UL, Bitzie, CuSats & Spatia
---------------------------------
Johan


Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2017 at 5:44pm
Wow - I'd have never thought about pairing the Proprius with Quad electrostatics! Shocked

No surprise they sound good though . . . and as you say better things to come as well. Thumbs Up


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Bob

Majestic DAC/pre-amp
Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V
Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50
2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links


Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2017 at 6:25pm
Hi what were you driving the els57s with before?


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2017 at 10:14pm
It sounds like they have brought the best out of the ESL-57's. You already know how they will change over the next week or so by just being left on so I wish you very happy listening Johan.
 


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Jon

Open mind and ears, whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2017 at 11:06pm
Do you leave the ESL-57s powered on all the time as well? I am under the impression that electrostatic panels need to be fully energised/saturated with charge before they sound their best.


Posted By: Aussie Mick
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2017 at 1:36am
I think you hit the nail on the head with your "happiness" suggestion. Since I've had mine I've stopped looking for some thing "better" because I am indeed "happy".
Mick.

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Rega RP8/Ortofon 2M Black/Rega Apheta 2 - Reflex M/Elevator EXP - C.E.C. TL5 CD Transport - MacBook Pro/Roon - Majestic DAC - Solo ULDE (Focal Elear) - Proprius - PMC Twenty5.22


Posted By: suede
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2017 at 11:30am
Thanks everyone. I previously used a Quad 33/303S preamp/amp but seeing as it was nearly 5 decades old (with inner components as old) I suspected it was acting a pretty big bottleneck in the system. And as well as that it had been acting funny lately and I began to fear for the safety of the electrostats. So I decided a new amp was the way to go. Of course the Proprius was my go to alternative and I had a feeling that it might be jusr the perfect amp to replace the Quad, in large part because of its smart output control. Which of course also lets you use it without need for a preamp if you're only using a single source. Needless to say, I am indeed very happy with the Proprius and it seems to be working formidably with the ESL-57s


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Proprius, Reflex M, Solo UL, Bitzie, CuSats & Spatia
---------------------------------
Johan


Posted By: suede
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2017 at 11:39am
Originally posted by Ash Ash wrote:

Do you leave the ESL-57s powered on all the time as well? I am under the impression that electrostatic panels need to be fully energised/saturated with charge before they sound their best.


Hi Ash,

Yes they are indeed left powered on continuously. And if they have been powered down they will need to be left on for several hours before they can be safely used again, while they build up their electric charge once more, or so I have been told at least. Therefore it's not viable to ever turn them off, unless you're going away for some time.


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Proprius, Reflex M, Solo UL, Bitzie, CuSats & Spatia
---------------------------------
Johan


Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2017 at 12:03pm
If the 303 hasn't been serviced fully in 50 years I would expect it to be past its best despite being designed for the els57.


Posted By: suede
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2017 at 12:35pm
Originally posted by Richardl60 Richardl60 wrote:

If the 303 hasn't been serviced fully in 50 years I would expect it to be past its best despite being designed for the els57.


I think it had some of its capacitors replaced 10 years ago but even so I still think it was very much the weaker link in the system. Also it had started to act up lately with sudden bursts of volume output raises so I felt it had to go. If I could have afforded to I would have replaced it much sooner but I didn't want to go for any half measures only to upgrade to the Proprius again further down the line.. I have the simplest tastes, I'm always satisfied with the very best

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Proprius, Reflex M, Solo UL, Bitzie, CuSats & Spatia
---------------------------------
Johan


Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2017 at 1:24pm
The simplest 'good' tastes?


Posted By: suede
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2017 at 2:11pm
Indeed. Just a quick question to those using their Proprius without a preamplifier. Where do you usually put the dial for a comfortable still fun listening volume? With the ESL-57s it's usually resting between 9-10 o'clock , just curious if this setting is low compared to most other types of speakers?


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Proprius, Reflex M, Solo UL, Bitzie, CuSats & Spatia
---------------------------------
Johan


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2017 at 8:01pm
Just about normal to me. Sort of depends on room size though.


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Not simple enough for Google-Bot to understand...


Posted By: suede
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2017 at 10:49pm
Thanks Graham. But it can go all the way to 11 can't it?

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Proprius, Reflex M, Solo UL, Bitzie, CuSats & Spatia
---------------------------------
Johan


Posted By: DaveG
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2017 at 6:46am
Usually somewhere between 9 and 10 for me too from the fixed output of my Accession. Good to know that they work well with ESL57s. I've long fancied trying electrostatics since a friend of mine found a pair of bronze coloured "radiators" in a skip many years ago. In good nick too and sounded great.

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Dave

Michell Gorbe + HR PSU -> Cadenza Bronze -> SME V -> Elevator -> Accession -> Proprius -> B&W CM6 s2 | Cusat 50 & Spatia cables ->


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2017 at 2:57pm
Originally posted by suede suede wrote:

Thanks Graham. But it can go all the way to 11 can't it?


Be careful not to break your ESLs Wink


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Not simple enough for Google-Bot to understand...


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2017 at 3:00pm
Graham, would I be able to run a Proprius pair from a car battery? Embarrassed 

I need to learn to drive and when I do, I'm going to want excellent car audio... Wink


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2017 at 3:11pm
4 car batteries wired in series, but don't short the amp outputs because the "power supply" won't "crowbar", and then you'll have to buy new fuses... Wink


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Not simple enough for Google-Bot to understand...


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2017 at 3:44pm
and I'd have to link them to the engine starter somehow so that they'd recharge during use.


Posted By: discrete badger
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2017 at 5:50pm
My experience is that many decent amps, including Quad's own, don't come close to revealing the true potential of the ESLs. Sure they will sound just fine, a revelation even, but when driven properly they play on an entirely different - holographic & spooky - level.

It's good to read that the Proprius handles the task so well, and this speaks volumes about how well designed it clearly is.


Posted By: suede
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2017 at 6:05pm
Originally posted by DaveG DaveG wrote:

Usually somewhere between 9 and 10 for me too from the fixed output of my Accession. Good to know that they work well with ESL57s. I've long fancied trying electrostatics since a friend of mine found a pair of bronze coloured "radiators" in a skip many years ago. In good nick too and sounded great.

They sure are charming and pretty special speakers, and what they may lack in the highest of treble and deepest bass they more than make up for in an often uncannily open and 3d soundstage, with perhaps just a slightly warm colouring of the sound (although that may have been the 303 amp, I won't know for sure until the Proprius are properly run in).
But all the same it's a sound that's hard not to love as it's all very light and airy, dynamic and just exceptionally pleasant sounding. They're always sure to put a big grin on your face no matter what kind of music you throw at them.

As for the design, it's always fun having people over who've never seen a pair before. Hardly anyone realise what they are, not immediately at least.

If you ever come across a pair in good condition at a fair price (or in a skip ) you should definitely give them a try. You've already got a set of great amplifiers to pair them with.


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Proprius, Reflex M, Solo UL, Bitzie, CuSats & Spatia
---------------------------------
Johan


Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2017 at 8:55pm
Think I would invest my money in a better car than proprius with 4 car batteries on board Ash.


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2017 at 9:36pm
LOL

There's gotta be a simpler solution than four car batteries... (five if you count the non-audio one).

A pair of Proprius needs the 48V and no more than a couple of amps of current available. Graham could easily make something with a small step-up 1:4 transformer and a voltage regulator probably. (although voltage step up would lower the available current)


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2017 at 10:09pm
Ash, you'd need a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibrator_%28electronic%29" rel="nofollow - vibrator !




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Not simple enough for Google-Bot to understand...


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2017 at 10:14pm
LOL

I assume you mean in the context of a "multi-vibrator" circuit, like a transistor astable?


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2017 at 10:16pm
No... see link (took me ages to edit it to get it to link)


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Not simple enough for Google-Bot to understand...


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2017 at 10:26pm
I don't understand what's going on in the schematic at a physics level but I do understand that electromagnetic induction in the transformer won't work with DC; it requires the acceleration of charge so needs the DC to be pulsed? Then it's a case of energy per unit charge is proportional to number of windings. Capacitors for smoothing current??

(well the charge will oscillate, not pulse, if the direction of flow is alternated)

(diodes for rectification or for back EMF?)


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2017 at 6:28am
Actually a vibrator with a transformer and bridge rectifier and smoothing capacitors, the whole unregulated DC supply with the vibrator as the "ac" source, as it was in the days of valve car radio. I had the dubious pleasure of restoring an early Motorola set in my mid-twenties for a thrifty school teacher.

But can I detect a hint of seriousness here? You actually want to use Proprius amps in a car?

I would therefore think that an ac (mains) inverter would be a much better, and off the shelf idea. I'm sure here we will debate the pros and cons of inverter types, but as it would feed switching power supplies, perhaps the "rough" type would sound OK??

It will need to provide at least 1 amp.



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Not simple enough for Google-Bot to understand...


Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2017 at 8:37pm
An inverter will take less space and probably raise less eyebrows if seen in Ash's boot.


-------------
Jon

Open mind and ears, whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC.


Posted By: Aussie Mick
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2017 at 2:05am
Hi All,
   Time to reignite this thread and ask if the Proprius is still doing good things to the ESL57's. I finally feel as though my electronics are firing on all cylinders and it's time to think about speakers. My current pair I've owned since 2000 and they've been brilliant! Alas, I think I'm beginning to want something a bit different. Clarity, resolution and imaging.
So...electrostatic time?
Mick.

-------------
Rega RP8/Ortofon 2M Black/Rega Apheta 2 - Reflex M/Elevator EXP - C.E.C. TL5 CD Transport - MacBook Pro/Roon - Majestic DAC - Solo ULDE (Focal Elear) - Proprius - PMC Twenty5.22


Posted By: Chris Firth
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2017 at 10:21am
Originally posted by Aussie Mick Aussie Mick wrote:

So...electrostatic time?
Mick.


Only if you want to have a nice, cuddly, rolled off top end.
That rolled off top end is a function of ESLs - the higher the frequency gets the more current is required to get it there, because the load impedance gets lower and lower.
The higher the sound, the more grunt you need to drive it.

It's possible to add a supertweeter to add the stuff where the roll off occurs, so you'd get the best of what the ESLs do well, with the air and detail that they don't do so well, which oddly enough has an enormous impact on the lower mids going down towards the bass end of things.




Posted By: suede
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2017 at 5:26pm
Hi Mick,

Yes I've now had the Proprius for more than 3 weeks and they seem to be in "burn in" still, although performance is much more even now than in their first week or two. They also change temperature continuously going from room temperature to slightly "feverish", around 40C I suppose, even when not in use. This could perhaps be an indicator of things still happening inside?

Anyway they still work very well together with the ESL-57s and have ample power to drive them, the treble elements too, and you get plenty of detail but indeed it's more of a "cuddly" warm valve like sound, rather than razor sharp high fidelity.
Chris is absolutely right about the treble roll-off. The treble is not nearly as extended as it is on pretty much any other high end speakers. Personally I think the amazing dynamic midrange makes up for the treble roll off, and also these are great speakers for flat living as they perform very well even at low volume. Only problem is they take up a whole lot of space..
But supertweeters would probably be a very nice addition and definitely something I'll look into in the future.


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Proprius, Reflex M, Solo UL, Bitzie, CuSats & Spatia
---------------------------------
Johan


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2017 at 9:21pm
The temperature of the Proprius fluctuates between quite cool and quite warm. One can be a different temperature to the other too. This is all independent of playing any music through them. The Majestic temperature oscillates in a similar way; can get quite warm but never hot.

I have considered planar magnetic and electrostatic speakers in the past but have rejected both for various reasons such as high expense, complexity, safety, physical size/weight et al. Electrostatic designs must be in a fully energised state (powered on for a long time) before they'll sound their best. I decided to opt for low moving mass, wide dispersion single dynamic emitters for simplicity and for a more consistent sound.



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