Keeping is Stealing!
Printed From: Graham Slee Hifi System Components
Category: Find what you're looking for here!
Forum Name: Whose Not Returned Equipment
Forum Description: Beware: if you don't return equipment we reserve the right to publish your name and address here
URL: https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2889
Printed Date: 27 Mar 2026 at 12:15am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Keeping is Stealing!
Posted By: Graham Slee
Subject: Keeping is Stealing!
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2016 at 1:06pm
|
If you borrow something and don't return it, it is theft. It also denies others from being able to loan things. It might be against the law to publish the names and addresses of people who refuse to return the forum's property, or "lose it when returning it" -- but it is also against the law to keep other people's property against their wishes -- or to be lax and lose it. So, for the few people who aren't 100% genuine and haven't sent products back long after they should have, we will publish their names and addresses in this section until they do, or give very good reason as to why we never received them. And until we are officially advised to take down the details, it will remain. You have been warned. ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Replies:
Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2016 at 2:07pm
|
Is this a common occurrence? ------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2016 at 2:52pm
|
I think it is perfectly in order to advise those users who haven't returned without good reason without good reason after a warning and reasonable timescale. This is always going to be a risk of running such a generous scheme the other was if to pay then refund but then impacts on reasonable users. |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2016 at 3:49pm
| The fact that this even happens is disgusting. Their personal details should be published and the police should be able to enforce their arrest and prosecution. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2016 at 3:57pm
|
My wish was to make the service free (except the postage -- both ways) and not a business in itself. OK, if I do get an order, then it's business, but I and the extremely time-generous loaner scheme organisers do it to demonstrate that there is better to be had -- should the lender's system be up to the job. Between us we try to educate people to that end. It might seem tempting to "score" a product off the loaner program -- to get a freebie Graham Slee product, but it's still theft. I gave the products freely and the organisers do what they do freely, but to do so costs us. Also, it was my wish that end of life loaner program products (i.e. when superseded) would be auctioned off to charity (again at arms length), so anybody deciding to keep a product denies a charity eventually receiving funds! ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: DaveG
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2016 at 4:48pm
Ash is right, it IS disgusting. Unfortunately I'd expect naming & shaming would probably backfire on Graham somehow. Even scumbags have human rights apparently. I'd definitely notify the police...not that I'd expect much to be done but you never know  ------------- Dave Michell Gorbe + HR PSU -> Cadenza Bronze -> SME V -> Elevator -> Accession -> Proprius -> B&W CM6 s2 | Cusat 50 & Spatia cables -> 
|
Posted By: BAK
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2016 at 5:08pm
|
This is a standard statement I try to include in my replies to members' loaner requests. " Important note: The loaner equipment is the property of the GSP Audio Forum members. As a member of the forum, you are part owner, too. This is the way Graham Slee himself set up the loaner program; he is quite a generous person. Please take good care of the equipment is all he asks. The forum members share the loaner equipment, it is not for sale." Graham has explained that the loaner equipment is the property of all GSP Audio Forum members. We are responsible for it's care. ------------- Bruce AT-14SA, Pickering XV-15, Hana EL, Technics SL-1600MK2, Lautus, Majestic DAC, Technics SH-8055 spectrum analyzer, Eminence Beta8A custom cabs; Proprius & Reflex M or C, Enjoy Life your way! |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2016 at 7:26pm
|
I have done over 200 loans for UK forum members and resent the handful who spoil it for the rest of us who are fair minded and honest. Running the loan scheme is something I do voluntarily like Bruce and the other mods. Sending reminders is part of that but chasing 'defaulters' is on another level. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: ICL1P
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2016 at 7:45pm
|
How often does it happen Jon? ------------- Ifor ===== Reflex M & ACCESSION M, CuSat50, Majestic DAC, a Proprius pair. |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2016 at 7:54pm
|
5 times with the gear coming back on 2 so far. We are talking about very late loans of a month or more. That leads to a reminder by PM then e mail. I allow a little leeway for circumstances, especially if there is no queue for that item. Occasionally I forget to send the return details promptly and most users (who are decent honest people) contact me to get them before I next check the loan record. So I must stress it is a few bad eggs (or phrase of your choice) who spoil it for everyone else. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2016 at 7:57pm
------------- Bob Majestic DAC/pre-amp Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50 2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links |
Fatmangolf wrote:Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2016 at 8:02pm
|
Yes it does, sadly. We are chasing one at the moment where the borrower got a nasty letter on company letterhead and sent Graham a courier booking form supposedly showing dispatch and/or delivery about two weeks ago. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2016 at 9:33pm
|
Royal Mail should be the only courier required. Isn't this stipulated in the loan T+Cs?? Should be sent special delivery fully insured and signed-for. Any other postal service used should be the risk of the borrower and they should be liable for theft if goods not returned in fair time and they don't hold a physical Royal Mail proof of posting receipt that allows them to claim. Secure postage both ways in the UK would likely be less than £25, a small percentage of the goods value. Theft is serious sh*t in my eyes. We live in an age of "criminal's rights" these days. |
Posted By: RichW
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2016 at 8:13am
|
Sadly there are always chancers who spoil things for the honest majority. Hopefully all the kit will be returned. Reminds of an incident a local dealer had lending an expensive item a couple of years ago. The borrower 'outstayed his welcome' with the loan & repeated requests were required to get it back. Not sure if it ever was returned.. ------------- Majestic/Enigma, Accession MM & MC. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2016 at 8:29am
|
I think the law works like this: You should not have let anybody borrow your goods because people might not return it; they have not physically taken it so it isn't theft. However, if you were to buy something under hire purchase and the buyer defaults, he is in breach, and the goods are treated as stolen??? So it's OK to loan something and not return it, which in effect is taking somebody else's property, but not defined in law as that?? But taking valuables from an underground vault is theft... The rich - poor divide? ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: BackinBlack
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2016 at 9:06am
Thankfully the majority of us are honest and truthful. Yes, there are the obvious exceptions that we know about. .I hope the loan scheme is to remain straightforward and simple. It would be a shame to have to wrap it up incomplex Ts & Cs which might detract and also involve more work for the volunteer managers. The cost of pursuing non returns through the law may also not be worthwhile. The small claims court comes to mind, but I imagine that some form of Contract would have to be demonstrated to have been broken. ------------- Just listen, if it sounds good to you, enjoy it. |
Posted By: less
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2016 at 12:47pm
|
Just a thought.... Would it be possible to take a (verified) credit/debit card number so that the card can be charged if the item(s) are not returned? Les ------------- I don't do mediocrity! Les Sutherland |
Posted By: Drewan77
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2016 at 1:38pm
|
I would like to believe that the rare occasions when loaned items are not returned are down to loss by couriers rather than deliberate theft. Certainly in my working life this happens from time to time. ------------- Older than I once was, younger than I'll be ............................. Andrew |
Posted By: stvn758
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2016 at 4:45pm
|
Is only Royal Mail allowed, I'm guessing the Majestic weighs a fair bit and my local Post Office in the newsagent closed some time ago - it actually might act as one of those drop off/collection post services now, not sure how they work. Will have to look into that. I don't drive and would not like to carry such an expensive item a mile to Frimley. Other couriers collect the item for you, as long as it's tracked and insured is that okay?
Also does the unit get posted onto another loaner or get sent back to base, as it were. Suppose it depends on demand. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2016 at 5:27pm
|
The "drop-off at your local store" type couriers tend to lose things, or it takes weeks for the goods to arrive and I consider that to be a sh*t service (don't want to offend - just telling it as I've found it). If you are able to use a "proper" courier service then that's OK. If loaning a Majestic which costs £1600, I think the borrower should take a bit of responsibility to ensure it is returned securely. All loaner program items should be shipped back to the loan coordinators (who do this on a voluntary basis) so they can keep track of things. Loan coordinators: Fatmangolf (UK) Suggs (EU) BAK (USA) phibes (AU) korichards (CA) Please all bear in mind that they are also members here and offer this as a service for other members to try the goods at home -- incredible kindness. And by doing it this way, there is zero sales pressure -- zero follow-ups -- zero obligation (except to return the goods promptly). Also I haven't profited from it yet - and doubt I ever will. Retail value of all the loaner stock comes to over £40,000, and growing at each product launch -- just to demonstrate how music can really sound (other system components allowing). This is probably why other manufacturers don't do the same and keep it on a completely business footing. ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: stvn758
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2016 at 5:59pm
|
Thanks, I put my name down on the waiting list. It's an excellent service especially for those who can't get out to audition. I might be able to get a lift from my Brother he drops down every now and then, police escort to the PO. I've seen a few TV shows about couriers, RM too, the way some of their staff treat parcels was quite disturbing.
|
Posted By: DaveG
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2016 at 6:39pm
Damn right. 4 of my last 5 deliveries were via a courier who offer a drop off service. Twice I paid an extra £20 for a Saturday delivery that simply didn't turn up**. Twice they dropped off to a local store of my choice and emailed me to tell me the package was there. Only problem was they dropped it off to a completely different store to what they told me. I'm quite happy to offend... they drive brown vans & have a P a U and an S in their name. If your vendor uses them I recommend you go and collect it yourself.. even if you walk it'll be quicker in the long run. The one package that did get through came via RM and was delivered on a Saturday at no extra cost. Even better... it had an Accession inside  .Rant over.. That's fortunately not typical of all couriers in my experience and personally I think RM are as good as anyone - but maybe they don't offer the discounts the others do to drum up trade? In general I reckon the odd package may go astray but I'd hazard a guess that of those 5 that haven't returned loan gear, at least 5 of them are trying it on. (unless they returned it via UPS of course) ** the vendors refunded my £20 within minutes both times and were as appalled as I was. So no fault there. ------------- Dave Michell Gorbe + HR PSU -> Cadenza Bronze -> SME V -> Elevator -> Accession -> Proprius -> B&W CM6 s2 | Cusat 50 & Spatia cables ->
|
Posted By: IntempestaNocte
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2016 at 7:25pm
I can empathise with that, I once walked a mile to my local PO with an early 80's Betamax Video Recorder cradled in my arms. After weighing it the girl on the counter had trouble lifting it down onto the floor  Seriously though, courier services seem to have taken a pretty sharp dip in quality in recent years. I went for about 5-6yrs without a single lost parcel but the last couple of years have been quite bad. I've had a lot of trouble with items purchased from PledgeMusic (artists ship their own products so this is no reflection on the website). Out of six projects that I have backed two vanished in transit and one was left in a puddle outside my front door in the rain. All three were replaced without issue when I contacted the sender but it doesn't make the couriers look very good. A particularly useless outfit identifies with a certain mythical, winged messenger, pretty ironic really. I tend to believe people when they say things got lost in the post, after all it does happen, but then I am a bit of a sucker  ------------- Scott AT150MLX > Audiomods Series V Standard > Rega RP6 > Accession MM > Marantz PM6005 > KEF Q100 / Solo UL > HD540II. Voyager, Bitzie, AgSat90. |
Posted By: stvn758
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2016 at 8:16pm
Think I have been getting my cm and mm confused, the Majestic seems to be a compact thing. It's the photos and Mr Slee's imposing silver case-work that makes them look like monsters. Sixteen hundred quid, put it in my bike pannier and hope people think it's a packed lunch in there as I cycle by. Special Delivery is just under £30. |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2016 at 9:20pm
|
I use Parcelforce 48 as it is reasonably cheap for large and heavier packages., insured, and recorded. No Saturday deliveries but great otherwise. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: stvn758
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2016 at 9:45pm
|
It's the Insurance that seems to bump up the price horrendously with Parcel Force as soon as you put£1600 value in the box. Do loaner items have to be insured or is the Tracked Parcel Force 48 service sufficient. Otherwise I'm looking at £60 Special delivery there and back which is slightly less frightening than it going missing in the post and Mr Slee getting a less than majestic hundred quid PF compensation cheque instead of his DAC.
 |
Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2016 at 11:32pm
| Maybe try a Bitzie and Lautus USB cable on the loan scheme instead (super light and cheap parcel). The Majestic USB conserves a lot of the Bitzie USB circuitry so will demonstrate the kind of sound to be expected from the Majestic. A Bitzie through a Sennheiser HD540 Reference II headphone, as some of my customers on this forum can confirm, is a truly amazing combination. The Majestic uses a dedicated linear power supply (PSU1), not USB bus power, and the USB digital-to-analogue conversion in the Majestic is performed by the same chip-set that handles the S/PDIF, not performed by the USB chipset like in the Bitzie. These two design alterations allow for a performance lift over the Bitzie. |
Posted By: dillon
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2016 at 8:44am
|
Gutted to hear this sort of crap even happens. As I said to the wonderful Fatmangolf (Jon) when he came over to mine for lunch, the loaner programme has been the key factor in my journey into purchasing GSP products. I did express my wonder - and am still overwhelmed - by the generosity of the loan programme. It simply works in a wholly unique way to any other dealer or internet service. Bravo. And dont let the bastardos get ya down! ------------- Nottingham Analogue/Origin Live/ PS Audio/ Burson Audio/GSP/ John Cadman |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2016 at 10:10am
|
Yes I see the problem in postage costs, which takes me back 18 years to how this all began... I could see that most hifi weighed a "ton" and was bulky to ship so I had this mad idea of making each of my products really simple and tiny whilst delivering high performance, so it could ship at small packet weight anywhere. And keeping it simpler as well, do it a bit like the old Woolworth's "everything sixpence" idea, where you could add a PSU1 which also ships small packet weight ... And everybody ignored me for years because I wasn't making hifi that was bulky and weighed a ton. But was I put off? No, I built another and that fell over (sorry: Monty Python creeping in here) Anyway, back to the problem and I see from the calculator here: http://www.royalmail.com/business/services/sending/parcels-uk/next-day-delivery that a 4kg medium parcel by Royal Mail Special Delivery is £26.60 each way. Total cost to try a £1600 item for two weeks: £53.20. If Jon were to split the units so the Majestic and PSU1 shipped by RMSD as separate items the cost each way would be: £19.55. Total cost: £39.10 Still quite a lot, but consider this: You get to try something costing £1600 for two weeks at home. If you don't like it you lost £53.20, which is better than losing £1600 which is how it works most of the time with other brands. If I was spending £1600 I would rather get to know if I could live with it first, and weighing it all up (pardon the unintended pun), I guess £53.20 to have it for two weeks to find out if I could live with it isn't that bad considering as a new member you'd get £80 knocked off as your "contributor discount"! ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: stvn758
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2016 at 11:57am
| Splitting them up, that's a great idea, £39.10 is an agreeable sum for hearing it. |
Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2016 at 12:29pm
Yes but you'll get £80 off if you bought one anyway.  You'd have to ask Jon if he can do it that way. Nothing to do with me -- this is loaner program territory. ------------- That none should be able to park up and enjoy the view without a smartphone and the knowledge in how to use apps |
Posted By: stvn758
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2016 at 3:24pm
No offence intended, haven't had a chance to look at all the specifics yet, did catch a post about member discounts and gaining stars or points on my first browse. My original plan was to trade in my old DAC for the new version, was offered £300, the store in question sells your Majestic as well, obviously more proper to buy direct, can always sell the old one elsewhere. I'll speak to Jon and ask if it's possible.
|
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2016 at 10:13pm
tracked PF48 with basic cover is fine. Although donated to the forum community by GSP the loan unit does have a value but you don't need to insure it at full retail price when posting it back to me. I hope that helps bring down the £60 to £10 or so. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2016 at 10:16pm
|
@Dillon - that was one of the best curries I have had and it was great to meet in person. You really know your music and your hi-fi gear mate! ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |
Posted By: Fatmangolf
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2016 at 10:19pm
|
I worked out some time ago that Special Delivery is very expensive for all but small light boxes whereas PF48 is tracked and much cheaper. I specifically mention that I use PF48 in the loan PM's as many of you will know. ------------- Jon Open mind and ears whilst owning GSP Genera, Accession M, Accession MC, Elevator EXP, Solo ULDE, Proprius amps, Cusat50 cables, Lautus digital cable, Spatia cables and links, and a Majestic DAC. |