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Volume Controls better @ 11:00 and above

Printed From: Graham Slee at Hifi System Components
Category: And the rest
Forum Name: Amplification
Forum Description: Share your interests or views on amplifiers, preamps, etc
URL: https://www.hifisystemcomponents.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2854
Printed Date: 22 Oct 2019 at 11:35pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Volume Controls better @ 11:00 and above
Posted By: BAK
Subject: Volume Controls better @ 11:00 and above
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2016 at 3:44pm
Volume controls sound their best at  or above 11:00 (or above 4 on a scale of 1 to 10).
WHY? It has to do with the transfer of electrical sound energy across the volume control to the next amplifier stage.
 This is called the "drive" to the next stage.

The output impedance of the amp circuit driving the volume control is applied directly across the volume control.

 BUT the next stage's input impedance is being driven by the variable output of the volume control.
When the volume control is set at a lower level, there is now an impedance mismatch such that the driving frequency response is not as flat and there is a loss at lower frequencies (hence the older amps used a "loudness" tap on the volume control to boost the low end).
 SO the input to the next stage after the volume control will be "frequency starved" at very low volume control settings ( below 9:00 or 3 on a scale of 1 to 10) and you will hear more treble.
 At 11;00 you will hear more midrange and some more bass . At 12:00 (1/2 volume) and above, you will get most of the bass added in. Above 1:00 there is very little change in the frequency response.



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Bruce
AT-14SA, Pickering XV-15/625, Technics SL-1600MK2, Reflex M, Lautus, Technics SH-8066, Dynaco ST120a, Eminence Beta 8A in custom cabs;; Using Majestic DAC
Enjoy Life Your Way!



Replies:
Posted By: BAK
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2016 at 4:16pm
You can mitigate this "1/2 volume" level by using an attenuator in the signal chain before the volume control.
 Use a 20 dB attenuator if you can't get above 1 or 2 on a scale of 10.
 Use a 10 dB attenuator if you can't get above 3 or 4 on a scale of 10.

But there is another way ( which wastes power)... put a 4 ohm 50 watt resistor in series with each speaker to reduce a 1/3rd of volume on a 8 ohm speaker. A power amp can handle the now "12 ohms nominal" on it's 8 ohm nominal output. This resistor will not affect the frequency response. Of course you need to use a larger power-rated resistor than actually needed to keep a lower amount of heat radiated. (Use a 50 watt "R" for expected power output to be 50 watts or less, 100 watt "R" if you have a 200 watt or larger amp.)
(Any need for a higher power-rated "R" would be for a very loud power delivery system like in a concert hall !)

Note: A resistor in series with your speaker can act as a sacrifice device to prevent blowing your expensive speakers.
Just use a "R" with a power rating of 1/2 the power rating of your speaker.

OR you can use a smaller power-rated amplifier.
Remember, higher power does not equate to higher quality sound if you are not going to use that higher power.


Like Graham has described here:
http://audio-forum.gspaudio.co.uk/proprius-amp-tweaking_topic2758_page5.html - http://audio-forum.gspaudio.co.uk/proprius-amp-tweaking_topic2758_page5.html
 the higher power amplifiers need to have more active components to achieve the higher power (more transistors or valves). And every active component added to the signal chain changes the signal quality.
So, the fewer active components used to achieve the desired result, the more close-to-the-original your system will sound.


This is the basis for the "minimalist" HiFi approach.





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Bruce
AT-14SA, Pickering XV-15/625, Technics SL-1600MK2, Reflex M, Lautus, Technics SH-8066, Dynaco ST120a, Eminence Beta 8A in custom cabs;; Using Majestic DAC
Enjoy Life Your Way!


Posted By: BAK
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2016 at 4:55pm
Another little-known fact:
 At lower volume control settings there is a lower Signal-to-Noise ratio.
This is due to the amplifier's stages after the volume control being designed for full volume driving them.
If a circuit is designed for a 1.0 volt signal drive, and you reduce it to less than half @ 0.5 volts, it will have 6 dB less signal than at full volume... @ 0.25 volts, it will have 12 dB  less signal.
You can equate the amount of dB attenuation on the volume control to how much you are reducing the Signal-to-Noise ratio.

Example:
@ Full volume you have 100 dB S/N ratio
then, @ -6 dB volume setting on the volume control you will have 100 - 6 = 94 dB S/N
  @ -12 dB vol setting you will have 100 - 12 = 88 dB S/N
And so on...

An added clarification to note is: the noise floor does not raise up as you turn your volume control  down ...
 the signal level is being reduced closer down to the noise floor... thus reducing the S/N ratio.
You will not hear the noise level changing as it will remain constant.


This is another reason for the volume control setting above 11:00 sounding better; especially with higher powered amps.


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Bruce
AT-14SA, Pickering XV-15/625, Technics SL-1600MK2, Reflex M, Lautus, Technics SH-8066, Dynaco ST120a, Eminence Beta 8A in custom cabs;; Using Majestic DAC
Enjoy Life Your Way!


Posted By: BAK
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2016 at 8:50pm
All...
 The above stated information and all other posts of mine on this forum come from over 45 years of experience in electronics... all kinds of circuits require the following:
 low S/N ratios, low distortion, low digital interference, low RF interference, a wide enough frequency response for the given purpose, and efficiency enough to be power-cost effective.

 Where I state in my signature my experience, it is not to be in conflict with any one else' experience, including Graham's own.
 My motto, "Here To Help", means just that. I try to help where I see it is needed. The "old" knowledge is being whittled away by falsehoods in today's world. "More" of anything is not always better.

 Those who have more power than they need can keep their beliefs about power requirements.
I will not judge them to be any less knowledgeable.
 Yes extra current drive capability from a power amp allows for some considerable "headroom" above what would be used. This has the effect of making the sound reproduced to seem "wide-open" and "effortless" driving a pair of speakers... almost like the music has no bottom.
 
I have heard such systems (and repaired some very powerful amps; 2500, 1500, 1000, etc ).

 And, yes, at normal listening levels, the THD is lower than at full volume... this is a given for all amplifiers.

I have also heard low power amps achieve the same effect with very high efficiency speakers,
the high efficiency allows the speaker to sound more "effortless" in it's delivery.

 I
am only hoping to state that speakers do not require a lot of power unless they are very low efficiency.

Your ears will prove this out in any A - B speaker test using the same amplifier (with it's volume control at the same setting) with A being any low efficiency (< 85 db SPL) and B being any higher efficiency (> 90 dB SPL) speakers.


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Bruce
AT-14SA, Pickering XV-15/625, Technics SL-1600MK2, Reflex M, Lautus, Technics SH-8066, Dynaco ST120a, Eminence Beta 8A in custom cabs;; Using Majestic DAC
Enjoy Life Your Way!


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2016 at 5:23am
The usual exception, and I say usual leaving out S/N, is the virtual-earth or summing node, and for one good reason: the common mode gets "cancelled" (well, just about) in the math - the input never approaches saturation because it is the "fulcrum" in the input output circuit. That's why it's called a virtual earth, because the signal is virtually zero, and zero cancels common mode distortion.

(and this is why recording studio mixers get away with it)


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Not simple enough for Google-Bot to understand...


Posted By: DaveG
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2016 at 12:24pm
This is interesting & informative stuff. It begs the question though - what is the rationale behind using high powered amps for normal home use when it means you can't use anything like the full full volume range? When I bought mine I vaguely remember stuff like "reproducing dynamics, avoidance of clipping and the ability to drive difficult loads" being cited. Not that any of that particularly influenced me - I just bought after demo-ing vs a couple of other amps. I liked the sound then and still do. Just seems that all that power is going to waste....or is it? I've owned and liked, to varying degrees, amps at both ends of the spectrum. As ever in hifi opinions seems to be polarised with people getting behind whichever P.O.V. they have bought into and refusing to budge. Me I'm just curious.

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Dave

Michell Gorbe + HR PSU -> Cadenza Bronze -> SME V -> Elevator -> Accession -> Proprius -> B&W CM6 s2 | Cusat 50 & Spatia cables ->


Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2016 at 1:53pm
Judging by how dynamic the Proprius amps sound into my PMCs, for my room, a higher powered amplifier just isn't required . . 

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Bob

Majestic DAC/pre-amp
Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V
Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50
2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links


Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2016 at 4:45pm
Dave if you bought your high power amp by the way it sounded not sure what other way you should have done it? Argument is a little like why drive a car that can do 120 mph?

Which pmcs do you have out of curiosity Bob?

Richard


Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2016 at 6:50pm
PMC Gb1i floorstanders, Richard. Their entry level model of a few years ago.

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Bob

Majestic DAC/pre-amp
Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V
Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50
2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links


Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2016 at 7:55pm
Thanks. I am a transmission line fan brought up on the big IMF and now have some smaller (proper) tdls. Have briefly listened to the .23 and ob1i but not seriously.   

Richard


Posted By: morris_minor
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2016 at 7:52am
If I the space (and the bank balance Shocked) I'd be tempted by these: LOL




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Bob

Majestic DAC/pre-amp
Accession MC/Enigma, Accession MM, Reflex M, Elevator EXP, Era Gold V
Solo ULDE, Novo, Lautus USB and digital, Libran balanced, CuSat50
2 x Proprius + Spatia/Spatia Links


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2016 at 11:09am
Getting back on topic Wink, Bruce has been explaining why most amps tend to sound best at 11 o'clock volume setting.

I've also been having a private technical conversation with Bruce of how our products don't suffer the 11 o'clock "sweet spot". This came about through my work on audio mixers as well as the desire to make headphone amps with what I call "Z-matched" volume controls.

As a result customers are able to use our volume controls in just about any position - to suit the wanted volume - and the sound will be just the same.



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Not simple enough for Google-Bot to understand...


Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2016 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by DaveG DaveG wrote:

This is interesting & informative stuff. It begs the question though - what is the rationale behind using high powered amps for normal home use when it means you can't use anything like the full full volume range? When I bought mine I vaguely remember stuff like "reproducing dynamics, avoidance of clipping and the ability to drive difficult loads" being cited.

This gets to the nub of the issue. Granted, if an amp sounds good, it is good but, in a world of a million choices, one has to find some way of narrowing down the field into something manageable that can form the basis for a series of auditions.

If one is is weeding out all the low powered amps before getting to the demo stage one may find a high powered amp that sounds fine but might be missing lower powered amps that would have been better.

I'm reluctant to ask for recommendations for my own set up because, obviously, this site is intended to promote one particular brand of amp but - not to be blunt about it - I can't afford them so would, reluctantly, have to look elsewhere if and when the time comes to go amp shopping. It would be good to get some informed advice about what to look for, what to avoid when trying to narrow the field.


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ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.


Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2016 at 1:10pm
Here's some advice I found on the net, just by way of example:

Zak: But once you're aware of all this you still need to figure out just how much power you need to drive your speakers. The first thing to remember is that it's better to have more power.

Ken: Right. You want your amp to be able to play all your music, loud and soft, without distortion, and be able to handle sudden changes in volume easily.

Zak: Yeah, and more power gives you just that. It's something that we call "headroom."

Ken: As a starting point consider the RMS power ratings of your speakers or subs. Match or better yet, exceed the speaker power ratings with your amplifier.

Zak: For example, to get that headroom, if you have a subwoofer that handles 200-watts RMS, power it with an amp that puts out 250-watts RMS.

Ken: It'll drive it cleanly and without distortion, especially when the volume is cranked and it'll do it better than an amp with less power. More power is always better.



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ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2016 at 1:33pm
So that's why the studios were fitting Canford 35 watt utility amps regardless of speaker rating Wacko

"More power is always better" - great advertising slogan, as well as being utter BS.


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Not simple enough for Google-Bot to understand...


Posted By: DaveG
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2016 at 1:56pm
Originally posted by Graham Slee Graham Slee wrote:


As a result customers are able to use our volume controls in just about any position - to suit the wanted volume - and the sound will be just the same.

Good to know, as this is the way I intend to use my Accession


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Dave

Michell Gorbe + HR PSU -> Cadenza Bronze -> SME V -> Elevator -> Accession -> Proprius -> B&W CM6 s2 | Cusat 50 & Spatia cables ->


Posted By: BAK
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2016 at 3:36pm
Originally posted by Paul H Paul H wrote:

Here's some advice I found on the net, just by way of example:

Zak: But once you're aware of all this you still need to figure out just how much power you need to drive your speakers. The first thing to remember is that it's better to have more power.

Ken: Right. You want your amp to be able to play all your music, loud and soft, without distortion, and be able to handle sudden changes in volume easily.

Zak: Yeah, and more power gives you just that. It's something that we call "headroom."

Ken: As a starting point consider the RMS power ratings of your speakers or subs. Match or better yet, exceed the speaker power ratings with your amplifier.

Zak: For example, to get that headroom, if you have a subwoofer that handles 200-watts RMS, power it with an amp that puts out 250-watts RMS.

Ken: It'll drive it cleanly and without distortion, especially when the volume is cranked and it'll do it better than an amp with less power. More power is always better.



The above is just the falsehood being promoted today that does not have any real basis in physics or sound reproduction engineering.

 Quoting myself: "The "old" knowledge is being whittled away by falsehoods in today's world. "More" of anything is not always better."
 The only fact supporting the "more power is better" idea is the fact that you can hear the almost "bottomless" sound coming from your speakers.
 This is ignoring the speaker's efficiency and thinking that the effortless delivery of sound is being controlled by the amplifiers power. The speaker is the final transformation of the electrical sound energy... it is the weak link. If the speaker cannot produce the sound you want to hear, the amplifier cannot make it sound any better.

 The "headroom" is not in the final power output rating of your amplifier, it is designed into the output circuitry and the power supply supplying it.
 A 100 watt amp would be able to deliver 200 to 300 watt instantaneous peaks, if well designed, and still have low distortion and no clipping.
 Power supplies that are well designed for power amplifiers will be designed to supply 10x the current required for the  designed power rating... giving more than enough "headroom".

 250 watts is not going to have any more control over driving your speakers than 50, 100, or 200 watts. It is the quality of the design that makes your amplifier sound as good as it does and how well it drives your speakers.


 Those who have more power than they need can keep their beliefs about power requirements. Just always remember to keep the volume down to avoid risking blowing your speakers... it can happen with one slip on the knob.


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Bruce
AT-14SA, Pickering XV-15/625, Technics SL-1600MK2, Reflex M, Lautus, Technics SH-8066, Dynaco ST120a, Eminence Beta 8A in custom cabs;; Using Majestic DAC
Enjoy Life Your Way!


Posted By: BAK
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2016 at 3:39pm
Through technical engineering discussion, ( more like a slap with the old school rulerOuch, thank you Graham Wink) Graham has refreshed my knowledge of the following:
 "Consumer" audio has been designed with "consumer" quality and hence the sweet spot is a result. Professional audio is designed for use by professionals (and the controls are even marked in decibels sometimes). It is a little more costly to design the professional volume control into a new product. Not many high end consumer systems have used the professional design approach to making their volume controls have no "sweet spot".


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Bruce
AT-14SA, Pickering XV-15/625, Technics SL-1600MK2, Reflex M, Lautus, Technics SH-8066, Dynaco ST120a, Eminence Beta 8A in custom cabs;; Using Majestic DAC
Enjoy Life Your Way!


Posted By: BAK
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2016 at 6:46pm
Here would be good for some "old" knowledge (I have stated elsewhere).

Old school of thought is: any power amp with less than 1 watt was considered low power,
 from 1 to 10 watts was considered medium power,
and any amp putting out more than 10 watts was considered high power.

Speakers are rated in power and decibels, so therefore we use the following formula to calculate a change in
Decibels related to power:
(found @ http://www.radio-electronics.com/info/formulae/decibels/decibel-formulae-equation.php - http://www.radio-electronics.com/info/formulae/decibels/decibel-formulae-equation.php )
 

Where:
    Ndb is the ratio of the two powers expressed in decibels
    P2 is the output power level (in watts RMS)
    P1 is the input power level (in watts RMS)

and "log 10"  shows this to be a logarithmic formula in base 10
If the value of P2 is greater than P1, then the result is given as a gain, and expressed as a positive value, e.g. +10dB. Where there is a loss, the decibel equation will return a negative value, e.g. -10dB.

P1 = 1watt in , P2 = 10watt out... then Ndb would be = 10 dB.

So how much louder in dBs is 100w over 10w? ... 10 db.          over 1w?  ... 20dB.

OK ... watts x 10 adds 10 dB, that is for each decade.
@   0.1 watts      we start at           0 dB (arbitrary point to start) 
0.1 x10 = 1.0watt add 10 dB              10 dB more than 0.1 watts
1.0 x10 = 10 watts add 10 dB            20 dB more than 0.1 watts
10 x10 = 100 watts add 10 dB          30 dB more than 0.1 watts
100 x10 = 1000 watts add 10 dB     40 dB and so on.....
(note that speaker SPL rated in dBs is directly related to this also)
My point is this... you are not going to get much more sound until you make your power 10x as much!
  3 dB is the smallest change in sound level that is determinable.
10 x 2 = 20 watts... add 3 dB
20 x 2 = 40 watts......"....."..........40 watts is only 6 dB louder than 10 watts.
Again, Old school of thought is: any power amp with less than 1 watt was considered low power,
 from 1 to 10 watts was considered medium power,
and any amp putting out more than 10 watts was considered high power.

Medium power, >1w, was good for paging systems, table radios, TVs, etc.
High power, >10w, was good for big venues like churches, auditoriums, schools, etc.
Those figures were considered enough for the intended uses.




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Bruce
AT-14SA, Pickering XV-15/625, Technics SL-1600MK2, Reflex M, Lautus, Technics SH-8066, Dynaco ST120a, Eminence Beta 8A in custom cabs;; Using Majestic DAC
Enjoy Life Your Way!


Posted By: BAK
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2016 at 6:48pm
See the loudness of different sounds @
http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/loudness.html - http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/loudness.html


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Bruce
AT-14SA, Pickering XV-15/625, Technics SL-1600MK2, Reflex M, Lautus, Technics SH-8066, Dynaco ST120a, Eminence Beta 8A in custom cabs;; Using Majestic DAC
Enjoy Life Your Way!


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2016 at 8:28pm
Originally posted by BAK BAK wrote:


My point is this... you are not going to get much more sound until you make your power 10x as much!


Perfectly true. 10 times the power gives twice the loudness, and always has been and always will be.

Loudness is also known as sound pressure level (SPL) and to install public address (of any quality) you have to know how SPL works.

I've never met anybody in hifi who has even the basic understanding of sound pressure levels and how to calculate them.

If you go on an install it simply has to work right out of the box.

So to continue on from Bruce, twice as loud as 10 watts is 100 watts, and twice as loud as 100 watts is 1,000 watts (1kW).

As a youth I made a 2 watt/channel amplifier and mounted a couple of 4 inch car speakers in closed box enclosures (infinite baffles). The average sized lounge was filled with sound, but that isn't all that surprising when a five watt 100 volt line speaker can be heard all over a cash and carry warehouse. With 100 volt line a 5 watt speaker will only ever do 5 watts no matter the wattage of the amp (as long as it's above 5 watts that is).

And as for you needing 250 watts just because the speaker can handle it - what bullsh*t!

OK, if your lounge is the size of a lecture hall then maybe. I put a 250 watt / channel Inter-M power amp in one which it didn't really need but it looked good to the client. It mostly got used at half volume. And anyone understanding the audio taper of volume controls will be able to work out the wattage at half volume... 3 watts!

OK, so what about headroom? Well, recording studio PPM meters red line at +8dB which is two and one half times more in voltage terms. 3 watts into 8 ohms is 5 volts, so you need 12.5 volts for peaks. 12.5 volts equates to 20 watts into 8 ohms.

Ask the caretaker what Won't Get Fooled Again sounded like? We were both doing air guitar at the back of the hall when a guy came from the third floor to complain at the noise!!!

I could have rated the speakers at 4 Ohms and used a pair of Proprius to obtain 45 WPC (if they'd been around at the time) and still have had power to spare.

And that's why they used the Canford 35 watt utility amps in commercial broadcast studios throughout the land...

...and I designed that too!



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Not simple enough for Google-Bot to understand...


Posted By: Richardl60
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2016 at 8:55pm
Bob hi just revisited six wives if Henry visit ( Rick wakeman) something I think Transmission lines can be spectacular at power, dynamics and scale.


Posted By: Paul H
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2016 at 9:58pm
I'm not sure I understand most of this but I genuinely find it fascinating. Thanks to everyone for taking the time to explain it all. I must confess, I've been under the assumption that more power was better simply because that's what I've always been told. In fact, part of my concern about my existing amp was that it didn't have enough power (85W per channel at 4 ohms) to drive a 100W rated pair of 4 ohm speakers (efficiency 88dB at 1m). 

From what I can understand, that's BS.


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ProJect 1Xpression Carbon UKX w/ Ortofon 2M Black; Arcam Alpha 7 CD player; Graham Slee Revelation M pre; Denon PMA 355UK amp; Epos K1 speakers; Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects. Room: 2.9m x 3.1m.


Posted By: BAK
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2016 at 10:47pm
Hi Paul,
 Yes, you have nothing to worry about with the info you posted on "Hi-Fi Database.com" ... your Denon PMA-355UK should last many years with good quality sound. Denon is a well-liked brand for many reasons.
 I found your amp's specs through a search on the web and the only post that had the actual specs was here:
http://www.hifidatabase.com/Detailed/Denon_PMA-355UK_142.php - http://www.hifidatabase.com/Detailed/Denon_PMA-355UK_142.php 
 It seems Denon does not keep information available for discontinued models. I would think they would help a former owner, though.

 My current amp is a Dynaco ST-120a rated at 60 watts RMS into 8 ohms, 90 watts RMS into 4 ohms...
 similar power to yours. I'm driving  200+ watts RMS capable speakers with this amp.
I have an attenuator (Z matched input to output, 10 dB) set on it's input to bring a custom made (by me) volume control into 9:00 to 2:00 range for normal listening levels.

 The 8 ohm speakers are rated at 95 dB SPL @ 1 watt / 1 meter, so I rarely turn it up above 10:00 where i"m driving about 0.1 watts making about 85 dB per channel.
 That level is even bad for the wife who has migraines all the time. Ouch
I can't wait 'till the times when I have the house to myself when she goes out, then maybe I can exercise my "still tight" speakers!Wink  But not more than 10 watts where I'll be hearing 105 dB ! That is just loud enough I figure. Big smile
 
 Footnote: The Dynaco solid state ST-120a has only 6 transistors total per channel to make 60 watts RMS with a 1.5 volt peak input. Less active components = more of the original signal information passed through. (if this was a 25 watt RMS amp, it could be possibly designed with 4 transistors in the signal path.)


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Bruce
AT-14SA, Pickering XV-15/625, Technics SL-1600MK2, Reflex M, Lautus, Technics SH-8066, Dynaco ST120a, Eminence Beta 8A in custom cabs;; Using Majestic DAC
Enjoy Life Your Way!


Posted By: Graham Slee
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2016 at 11:18pm
In marketing the golden rule is repetition. It is truly the way to get rich. Unfortunately I'm too honest for that.

What you have to do is latch onto a popular notion such as "more power is better", and have at the ready a suitably rated product to sell.

People reading that same sentiment in other places will see you as being an expert in your field, and never think once to question it. They will immediately belittle anybody swimming against the tide, even if that person is telling the truth...

For example, the number of people who blame me for problems eventually found to be another system component's fault. They would never apportion blame to anybody following a popular notion - it is far easier to single out somebody outside the chorus.


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Not simple enough for Google-Bot to understand...


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2016 at 11:36pm
Originally posted by Graham Slee Graham Slee wrote:

In marketing the golden rule is repetition. 

People reading the same sentiment in other places will see you as being an expert in your field, and never think once to question it. They will immediately belittle anybody swimming against the tide, even if that person is telling the truth...



Seldom have wiser words been spoken.


"And I continued to play the charade as if it were true"


Posted By: BAK
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2016 at 1:10pm
The collective knowledge on this forum is mainly directed toward finding the truth of High Fidelity sound and how to reproduce the High Fidelity in the home.

 I have noticed that all members signed up here are searching for that truth.

Graham has set up this forum, and it's loaner program, to support those seeking the truth.

Many times over, Graham has stated his designs are based on making the music be reproduced as close to the original recording as possible... and in a minimalist fashion. Quote; "Does it sound right to me?" Graham says a lot.

We all owe Graham a lot more than just being a member or owner of GSP Forum and kit.

Here is a call for "Thanks to Graham" for his sojourn for the truth.Clap

(Hey Graham, I had fun side-tracking this topic... in many ways. Big smile )


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Bruce
AT-14SA, Pickering XV-15/625, Technics SL-1600MK2, Reflex M, Lautus, Technics SH-8066, Dynaco ST120a, Eminence Beta 8A in custom cabs;; Using Majestic DAC
Enjoy Life Your Way!


Posted By: msphil
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2016 at 6:56pm
I can't claim to understand all the technical stuff in this thread. However, I have a pair of Graham's Proprius amps and all I can say is that if they had any more power that it would be wasted! I have a reasonably large room playing through a pair of PMC Fact 8 speakers and I can only turn them up to 11 o'clock without being in danger of damaging my hearing. They are bloody good pair of top quality amps with more power than you'd know what to do with. You'd have to have a pair of incredibly inefficient speakers not to be able to drive them!

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'You are, through your soul not your body, a human being.'


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2016 at 7:44pm
Majestic into Proprius with Lautus interconnects provides either my K1000 or Mark Audio speakers with a profoundly incredible signal. I don't think I could achieve a better sound with alternative electronics, regardless of how expensive it is.

If I had the space, I'd buy a pair of Quad ESL 57 to try out with this signal path.


Posted By: discrete badger
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2016 at 10:18am
The original "radiator" ESLs out there are all very long in the tooth and the affects of age are particularly intense with this design, and degrade the sound greatly. There are operations which do a complete rebuild to better-than-new performance, but it's labour-intensive work and the costs reflect that. 

The '57 is quite demanding of amplification (low impedance, capacitative load, limited power handling), is prone to severe damage through overdriving, has a very small (even for ESL) sweet spot, and has limited bass, treble, and volume. 

So one might wonder why they have such a religious following - especially as there was a later design by the same person which resolved the severe limitations. Well, what they do for speech, vocal and light chamber music at moderate volumes has to be heard to be believed - a real testament to audio engineering ingenuity. 


Posted By: Ash
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2016 at 3:47pm
They're also "multi-way" as apparently they contain more than one electrostatic panel (three per radiator??), of different sizes for bass, treble etc. Perhaps this is another reason that the "sweet spot" position is so narrow as very angular listening positions would result in very different arrival times so phase and frequency emphasis both affected. Plus the design is very planar in terms of dispersion pattern so won't radiate really wide to the same extent that a Mark Audio shallow cone profile would.


Posted By: discrete badger
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2016 at 7:00pm
It's not so much a time-alignment thing, more a dispersion thing. The narrow sweet spot is due to the "beaming" directionality of the treble panel; mid and bass is much more diffuse. But for the single listener sitting in the sweet spot it's perfectly aligned. Actually, in any reasonable listening position it's well aligned, it's just that there's little treble :-)

Treble disperson is one of the many things greatly helped by the concentric delay line in the later design.



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